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Thread: Kennel Club criticises CKCS Club, supports Margaret Carter

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sins View Post
    Well, Let's wait and see how this impacts on the cavalier Club.
    Unless the Kennel club can find a way to prevent any future dog with a neurological disorder from attaining Champion status and reproducing in a prolific manner then there's little hope for the cavalier breed.
    Sins
    Wow, refusing to let people show cavaliers ( or any other breed) without every test being clear would certainly kill off dog showing.

    And if the peke now needs a defined muzzle.. does this mean all their perfectly flat faced currently show quality dogs wont get a look in anymore? hmmm looks like crufts is gonna be short on entrants soon....

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devilica View Post
    Wow, refusing to let people show cavaliers ( or any other breed) without every test being clear would certainly kill off dog showing.

    And if the peke now needs a defined muzzle.. does this mean all their perfectly flat faced currently show quality dogs wont get a look in anymore? hmmm looks like crufts is gonna be short on entrants soon....

    I believe the french club requests that all dogs winning their championship have their hearts & eyes tested or they will not recieve their title.
    Dogs also do not recieve a full pedigree until they have been assessed by a judge.

    It is accepted over there so why not here ? There is nothing stopping dogs being shown , they just can't take the top prizes

  3. #13
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    Well, 'fully clear' for some issues won't happen and saying so is a red herring -- cavaliers do not even currently need to be clear of SM entirely to be bred under the breeding guidelines -- because there are so few without some level of CM/SM and the breed would be well and truly over if they had to be fully clear of CM and SM as not enough would test to keep genetic diversity, to start with. But there are parameters -- as there are with say hips or eyes (they do not need to be clear of problems, they need to have good results within established parameters) and that is no doubt the kind of framework that should and will be used if a full clear isn't feasible (or necessary).

    But showing -- and giving championships -- to dogs that are severely affected on MRI, and/or that are symptomatic even in the ring, is wrong, and such dogs should be rightly banned from being shown and bred. Yet there's a case right now with a well known champion where judges seem complicit in giving a championship, as the dog scratches and bunny hops in the ring on the lead and can hardly be touched so they are all very careful not to make him scream while up on the table.

    I bet most UK breeders at least, no matter your perspective, will know which dog I am talking about. Some have captured his behaviour on video, even. But god forbid this well known kennel be denied its champion because he is a good looking dog and the name is a long standing name.

    Another well known dog with SM has been shipped off to the US where he is currently being used at stud even though he appears in the immediate pedigrees of dogs known to have symptomatic SM and has symptoms himself. But the person who moved him on obviously figures lots of US breeders won't know about this problem. Some US breeders won't know, and sadly probably some won't care -- the concern will be 'let's get those old line UK champion dogs into our line' and who cares about the risk of SM. Pet buyers after all don't generally follow pedigrees or know the affected show dogs so they'll buy puppies for $2000 or more and the health guarantee doesn't cover what happens if the dog gets SM and anyway the breeder can always say 'I didn't know when I bred my bitches'.

    Believe me, lots and lots of breeders know exactly which dog this is, too.

    The fact that the first dog was made a champion, and the second dog is off reproducing in the US, underlines how complicit clubs and breeders are with this kind of thing! Literally the dogs on the street know and have known for years what is going on but no one stops it, no one mentions it, and show life continues. Some clearly become so inurred to it that they find it acceptable just to let puppy buyers know that cavaliers have that problem with hearts and now ACCEPT that high numbers will suffer and die young. They also perhaps have become so immersed in win at all costs culture that they actually believe all of this doesn't really matter and hide what they do know or did once recognise off into some far corner of their brain as it is too difficult to acknowledge.

    What happened to Margaret just confirms what happens if a club member DARES to say what EVERYONE knows. And confirms the level of commitment to the breed, and the general courage, needed to say something.

    The system needs to be shaken to its core. It looks like the KC has started that process but everyone who cares about dogs needs to make sure things truly change.

    And if dog showing gets killed off because the emphasis is put on keeping dogs from suffering to fit a breed standard or a code of silence? Well, it would only confirm much of showing has been about vanity, not 'improving and protecting breeds', wouldn't it? But there are plenty of breeders who have always bred with health foremost, some of whom have accepted their dogs may therefore not be what judges have been looking for -- and they can now come to the fore. Their dogs already pass the recommended health tests. Let the show world restructure around that health and (re-assessed, if necessary) conformation focus, paired.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

  4. #14
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    Oh I was not saying that it was wrong that these animals should have health certificates to be shown.. im 100% up for that.

    I often thought about showing over the years that I have owned dogs, but refused when my (way back when) sheltie decided his ears didnt want to tip and I was told to stick coins to them with chewing gum to get the desired effect

    If his ears were naturally meant to stand up who am I to argue? He was one of the most fantastic dogs I ever owned, he was fabulous with children and came everywhere with me ( the days before owning a car and not being afraid to tie your dog up outside the shops.)

    Anyway.. every time I start typing I ramble.. so will shh now.

  5. #15
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    I was told to stick coins to them with chewing gum to get the desired effect
    Oh good grief - do they really do these things?

    I'm not really a dog show person. Did go to Crufts once but it didn't enjoy it much, just not my sort of thing.

    I much prefer agility and obedience where the dogs are stimulated and look like they are enjoying it. Just a personal preference though.
    Jan
    Owned by Rufus (B&T) and Piper (Border Terrier) and in loving memory of 12 years of Toby joy (Tri cavalier) - waiting at the rainbow bridge.

  6. #16
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    Wow, refusing to let people show cavaliers ( or any other breed) without every test being clear would certainly kill off dog showing.
    It would, but I wasn't suggesting that should be done.
    What I said was:

    prevent any future dog with a neurological disorder from attaining Champion status and reproducing in a prolific manner
    There must be fine quality cavaliers out there showing today who don't have SM and I believe they should be made up in preference to a dog who has SM or a dog who cannot prove they are SM clear.

    Sins
    Last edited by sins; 8th October 2008 at 06:15 PM.

  7. #17
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    Jan Bel,

    Once when on holiday the breeder of my Sheltie took her while I was away, I returned to find her upright "Mule" ears (as they call them) perfectly tipped over....she had only used SUPER GLUE!!! can you imagine that....using super glue on a dog all in the name of vanity hey!

    Alison.

  8. #18
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    If the KC is going to review health on all breeds including our CKCS will commercial, BYB and PF's have to comply with health testing before registration? I doubt that will ever happen do you.
    Alot of them especially the PF's never have papers and many don't even get registered.

    So what improvement and protection will these "non show" dogs receive? surely health requirements should be met across the whole breeding board?

    Alison.

  9. #19
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    They'd sure lose a huge source of income if they restricted registration in this way -- but then club registration would actually have some meaning so let's hope that is the goal. Right now club registrations worldwide only signal the lowest possible bar and then only for most but not all breeds.

    Increasingly I respect the working dog folks that simply set up their own registration system and breed for function and health, not just a breed standard that may be interpreted in damaging ways. I didn't understand these adequately in the past. Obviously you still have to do a lot of reading and filtering to make sure the registry is legit but I sure no longer think dogs of some breeds that have these legit alternatives need have other registration.

    There are so many questions around the new proposals and how they would work. Also the KC is the group that has been so central to arguing that SM levels are only at 2% because that is what their breed health survey said (they didn't disclose how many of those dogs were MRId, and the front page of the survey has a big disclaimer on it about reliability because it depends on self-reporting and small samples in many cases). Eventually they switched tactics and argued that percentages were less important that tackling the issue, but their own geneticist has been totally dismissive of SM at both SM conferences and in the face of all existing worldwide research (he was the geneticist for the club shown on Pedigree Dogs Exposed). So if he runs the proposed genetics centre, that would be alarming to many who care about health across a lot of breeds. And the KC has thus far been pretty dismissive of SM in its public statements so I'd wonder if the breed standard and testing for CKCS would be any different from what it is now -- meaning no tests required, and the MVD protocol not even recommended or indicated within the club ethics guidelines.

    I do really like the sound of what they are proposing to do overall, but the devil will be in the details and in having the KC subject to some neutral oversight body.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    Another well known dog with SM has been shipped off to the US where he is currently being used at stud even though he appears in the immediate pedigrees of dogs known to have symptomatic SM and has symptoms himself.

    Believe me, lots and lots of breeders know exactly which dog this is, too.

    What happened to Margaret just confirms what happens if a club member DARES to say what EVERYONE knows.
    This is very problematic for me. I dropped out of the club/show scene years ago because I strongly disagreed with the direction that things were headed and I was just tired and beaten down after some years of service. Despite being an "outsider" now, it is very easy for me to research and find the problems that are “in my own backyard” because I have a 20 year history in the breed. I could even be in harm’s way personally except for the fact that I’ve done my research and also because I will not bring a young Cavalier into my home and heart (only an older dog). But there are so many other pet owners (and even novice breeders) in my region who haven’t figured these things out for themselves; most are novice Cavalier owners. Some have posted here. Recently. We try to point out what to ask for, what to look at and consider, but these folks aren’t really listening. They won’t believe these problems exist until they experience them. I’m reluctant to make direct statements to strangers or casual acquaintances when I don’t have iron-clad facts. I can’t be kicked out of anything now but I’m too old for drama and intrigue. I usually repeat the statements of what certifications to see and I will even say that there are just a handful of breeders from whom I’d buy a Cavalier puppy and I’ll rattle off that list of names. (The only reason anyone pays any attention at all to what I might say is if they learn I’ve had 11 Cavaliers over 20 years and that they’ve all been long-living.) And often I meet people “after the fact” – just met some close friends of my brother, and it was too late. Can’t really say, “Pleased to meet you, and wow, you made a horrible mistake” when they are so proud of their beautiful young Cavalier from champion stock. Mainly, I wait and help pick up the pieces when they phone a few years later for medical advice. Many of the big producers that concern me are incredibly established and prominent. This is a real dilemma. I actually feel rather hopeless.
    Pat B
    Atlanta, GA

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