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Thread: Craigowl and other breeders who refuse to MRI scan

  1. #21
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    I absolutely agree with Pauline's points, the Kennel Club should police this issue by refusing to certificate dogs if health tests and breeding protocol are not strictly adhered to by breeders. I would imagine that there must be others here like myself who rather stupidly thought that registration with the KC offered some guarantee of quality.
    There must also be others here who wonder what the future holds for their beloved pets. How many of us fear that our little ones are potential time bombs regarding SM. I've even started to scrutinise my little girls behaviour and worry if she scratches for too long or rubs her face on the rug for more than a few seconds. Like many others, I should be just simply enjoying every minute with my little one, not fearing the worst and being fearful for her future.
    My heart goes out to every owner who is dealing with this horrible illness.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbara View Post
    Thank you Lynne (and Holly Dolly). How is Amber getting on these days??

    Thanks Barbara,
    Amber is doing well, but any stress like visits to the vets or walks still brings on an episode so she is limited to play in the garden, sad really as I love walks with Lady just wish Amber could join us too.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    Trying to divert focus to puppy farming is the latest red herring from certain breeders.
    I've noticed the same thing lately. Yet even if the pedigrees of our SM-affected cavaliers were posted publicly, we'd get the "it takes two to tango" excuse/argument being used to deflect responsibility amongst the club breeders. Certain breeders will go to any lengths to avoid being a part of the solution.

    Another new diversion is the topic of full length scans versus mini scans - a new criticism of the current research and a future excuse to ignore the results.
    Cathy Moon
    India(tri-F) Geordie(blen-M)Chocolate(b&t-F)Charlie(at the bridge)

  4. #24
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    Another new diversion is the topic of full length scans versus mini scans - a new criticism of the current research and a future excuse to ignore the results.
    All these tactics are clear to see in print.
    My absolute favourite is in cavalierhealth forum where the question is raised: "Is longterm damage being done to some cavaliers by MRi scans has any research been done"...?
    If this is the line persistently taken to undermine the credibility of screening programmes and the dedicated work of researchers it'll take a heck of a lot more than £8,000 invested in PR to turn around the image of cavalier breeders.

  5. #25
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    If this is the line persistently taken to undermine the credibility of screening programmes and the dedicated work of researchers it'll take a heck of a lot more than £8,000 invested in PR to turn around the image of cavalier breeders.
    I just can't believe how these people can behave so disgracefully. Some of the posts on Dog World are stunningly rude, arrogant and ill informed. Not to mention attacking the researchers trying to discredit their research. What a shabby way to treat those who are really doing their best to help the breed.
    Do they not see how they look to the outside world?

    One post did lighten my mood though, from Chloe92us:

    Reading this banter is very addicting, I must say. It's like watching a circus act. On the outer ring we have Quincy and Rod, dressed in suits and ties, holding a long stick with a bone tied to a string. On the inner ring we have Bet- the pink poodle doing flips and jumping around on her back legs trying to catch the bone.
    What a lovely visual image!
    Jan
    Owned by Rufus (B&T) and Piper (Border Terrier) and in loving memory of 12 years of Toby joy (Tri cavalier) - waiting at the rainbow bridge.

  6. #26
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    Honestly, if she were to stop posting, the reading would be much more educational. So many times the same rants are tossed out that it sidetracks the thread.
    Last edited by chloe92us; 5th January 2009 at 05:31 PM.
    Trisha in Southwest Florida
    Cavaliers: Casey, Ollie, & Winston and usually a foster or two! Cats: Pebbles & Benson

  7. #27
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    Yes that made me smile too. Bet Hargreaves has made so many references too Exploding Brains, one would think she would shut up about it as she is so against the press printing this.
    The more I read Norma's breed notes the more incensed I become, I realy should stop as it only serves to get me going.I have to smile at the comment she makes about being on first name terms with her vet, well whoopi woo.

    Nanette
    PS Another post on the Dog World website:-"Ollie and Maggie's Craigowl pedigree is not a secret, though I have kept it so for over 6 years. In the past several months in reading many of Normas breed notes and hearing that she has so many healthy, happy Cavaliers i have to set the record straight as that is so misleading to puppy buyers and other breeders. It would have been considerate at the very least if Norma over the past six years that I have had two severally affected Craigowls, would have offered a word of support, a little concern and an all out effort to do everything possible to reduce the chances of it happening again. An MRI may not be the perfect solution, but it lowers the risk, it contributes to valuable research and at the moment it is all we have. That is all I would be asking for."

  8. #28
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    Ollie and Maggie's Craigowl pedigree is not a secret, though I have kept it so for over 6 years. In the past several months in reading many of Normas breed notes and hearing that she has so many healthy, happy Cavaliers i have to set the record straight as that is so misleading to puppy buyers and other breeders. It would have been considerate at the very least if Norma over the past six years that I have had two severally affected Craigowls, would have offered a word of support, a little concern and an all out effort to do everything possible to reduce the chances of it happening again. An MRI may not be the perfect solution, but it lowers the risk, it contributes to valuable research and at the moment it is all we have. That is all I would be asking for. Regards, Sandy Smith
    Yes, that is Sandy Smith. I have known of Sandy, and known of her affected cavaliers for about 5 years now -- from participation on some of the very early lists -- and despite having met her twice now, and being in occasional email contact, I was not aware until very recently that both her affected dogs were of Craigowl breeding. So it is a bit laughable that someone has posted on the comments that she has posted this 'everywhere' as so many of us who actually knew her and are on all those same lists never have read this before and didn't know. Her post above was a reply to that person's inaccurate statement.

    Elsewhere in the Dog World comments someone stated that it should be Norma's own business whether she MRIs. But alas, she chose to make this the central topic of a public column on the cavalier breed, thus opening up her policies to scrutiny and comment. Given her profile, and supposed support for people like Sarah Blott who has said over and over that she needs breeders to keep on MRIing (a point that a few other Sarah Blott supporters keep missing! As well as the point that her work so far is based primarily on the initial work by Penny Knowler and Clare Rusbridge and the scans given to them by the vast majority of people, not the little group of some breeders who have decided to withhold them) -- saying that you won't MRI is very controversial and slap in the face to Dr Blott.

    I will make a prediction right now that Sarah Blott also will quickly fall the way of ALL researchers so far, and become suddenly a lot less popular, as soon as the true implication of EBVs sinks into some breeders' heads. Many don't yet seem to register that they cannot hide the risk of their lines passing along CM/SM -- the EBVs already indicate incidence because they are based on so many of us already submitting scan results, and on the huge number already held by Penny and Clare, and as more are submitted, the finer tuned the EBVs will become.

    That is why ALL owners of a scanned cavalier (or heart tested or eye tested) with a pedigree should please, please submit the information to Dr Blott for inclusion in the EBVs. A lot of breeders will find that just because they do not scan, doesn't mean many others haven't submitted information on their lines, or on dogs in which their lines feature in the near past, thus influencing their own dogs' EBVs.

    Ultimately the greater the pool of data, the more precise the EBV, and the genome scan, assuming it is successful , will make the EBVs very precise indeed for risk of inheritance. Submitting test information to Sarah will help the breed and insure that no one can hide behind a 'don't ask, don't tell' no testing policy.

    On the full length vs mini scan debate -- all the researchers have noted that almost all dogs with syrinxes have them at the neck, and almost none scan with syrinxes only at the base of the spine. So unless one is MRIing for a full diagnosis and to consider decompression surgery for an affected dog, there really is no reason to do full body scans to get statistically significant information. The funny thing is, the breeders most worried about 'needing' a full scan are typically those who don't MRI to begin with, and complain at paying even as little as £100 for a scan as is. For a full body scan, the cost would have to be significantly more as the full scan takes far more time and resources.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

  9. #29
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    Here is a list of Breeders in the UK that test: http://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeds/ca...ers?ct=England

  10. #30
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    What always surprises me is that the breeders in denial about CM/SM don't realise that people will draw their own conclusions even from their silence. For example, in last year's Cavalier Club Year Book, Norma Inglis had a two-page advert. Not a word about her own winning dogs and their winning offspring, just a two-page spread about her new US import. My thought on seeing it (being a cynical old lady with two SM Cavaliers): 'Is she trying a new line in order to get away from SM in her own breeding? Why no mention of her own dogs?' I may be getting it wrong - but it's difficult not to be cynical about what breeders DON'T say in their adverts. Silence doesn't hide anything - it just encourages people to guess what's behind the silence.

    The same with the EBV scheme. Some breeders may refuse to give information on their dogs, but if others do, then the information is out in the world anyway. For example, Oliver's father was never scanned and as far as I know is not on the EBV. But Oliver is, with the information that he has CM/SM; so clearly his father had a good chance of either having CM/SM himself, or being a carrier (as we don't know the mode of inheritance). And if anyone wanted to line-breed back to him, his EBV would include having produced at least one offspring with CM/SM (actually I know of two) - not to mention being the son and grandson of champion dogs (and widely-used sires) with CM/SM. So not putting him on the database actually doesn't conceal anything. Fortunately, although he was BIS at the club championship show, he was never a very popular sire, so his influence was limited.

    Living with two dogs with CM/SM, I'm constantly learning to recognise new signs of pain. I'm not sure that there is any such thing as asymptomatic CM/SM - just CM/SM with subtle signs of pain that we don't pick up. What chance does a kennelled dog have of having such signs picked up, when dogs who are with their owners 24/7 still get their symptoms missed?

    And on puppy farming: a friend of mine went to buy a puppy from one of the most successful breeders, who told him that at any one time she had 50 puppies in her kennels. What's that but puppy farming?

    Kate, Oliver and Aled

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