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Thread: Craigowl and other breeders who refuse to MRI scan

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by klh813 View Post
    Here is a list of Breeders in the UK that test: http://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeds/ca...ers?ct=England
    These lists can be very deceptive. The term " Health Tested" is too often used to give credibility to cavaliers and their owners when minimum checks are performed ( and of course the term does not guarantee that the results of the test was good )

    If you look at the individual entries in the Champdogs list some of them are very vague about actually what health testing they do. Others only list the cheapest and easiest tests.

    I give advice to buyers and non-show breeders. So often they report back that breeders advertising their dogs in Cavalier Club Yearbooks and on Breeders lists are unable to produce the advertised health certificates when asked.

    Interesting to see this thread revived and to read what was written.........Karlin was right about Sarah Blott falling out of favour. The same happened with Dr Imelda Mcgonnell and her Foetal Tissue Research when her studies showed there were serious problems in skull bone growth in foetal cavaliers.

    Five years on but still very few breeders actually MRI scanning older dogs, in fact there is very little evidence that top breeders are scanning at all. What is happening is more and more young cavaliers are being diagnosed with painful SM, not surprising as the majority of breeders are still breeding from unscanned ( probably affected ) cavaliers.

    Some of the breeders named above are not only ignoring the rise in the incidence of SM but they are knowingly taking the risk of introducing more health problems by breeding from young dogs with a family history of renal disease............... I thought I had heard it all but breeding from a two year old dog undergoing weekly dialysis for kidney disease strikes me as extraordinarily irresponsible and callous.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  2. #32
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    I have to agree that unfortunately, "health tested" is the most deceptive and misused of phrases and going on adverts on those dog breeder sites, almost always means the most inexpensive and lower-level tests, not the ones that are most important: buyers want to start with seeing a breeder MRIs and cardiologist tests, going hand-in-hand with following breeding protocols for both CM/SM and hearts, for BOTH sire and dam -- then lots of others of course too but these two are really paramount as a *starting* point . "Health tested" too often means the breeder simply had her vet give her dogs and/or puppies a once-over, or only tested eyes etc as Margaret notes -- just ludicrously inadequate and meaningless these days, for cavaliers.

    I would not advise using the Champdogs list as anything more than the most basic of starting points -- same as using a list from a breed club, one of the breed publications, or a recommendation from someone with a cavalier. But most buyers do need a starting point.


    How eye opening to see this thread again and read what people were encountering and thinking half a decade ago. Too many of the predictions have come true and too little has changed.

    Breeding from a dog on dialysis? How can doing something like that not be an automatic expulsion from a club? Who continues to tolerate this kind of thing -- surely others in the persons breed club must be aware? That's omertà -- the breeder code of silence --at its most disgusting.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    Breeding from a dog on dialysis? How can doing something like that not be an automatic expulsion from a club? Who continues to tolerate this kind of thing -- surely others in the persons breed club must be aware? That's omertà -- the breeder code of silence --at its most disgusting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret
    I thought I had heard it all but breeding from a two year old dog undergoing weekly dialysis for kidney disease strikes me as extraordinarily irresponsible and callous.
    I don’t know the source of the story of a two-year old Cavalier dog on weekly dialysis being used for stud, but this cannot possibly be true.

    There are only a handful of places in the US that do dialysis for animals. Dialysis would have to be done about three times a week in order to keep an animal alive, not weekly. A dog undergoing dialysis would have a permanent catheter in place (changed at regular intervals) so you could not hide this. The cost would be extraordinary; I can’t imagine that the value of a stud dog’s offspring would warrant such an expense:

    http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=1749

    “Our standard dialysis estimate is $3500-$4000 for the first 2-3 treatments and $600-$700 per treatment thereafter.”

    Here’s another estimate – “The average estimate for the care of a hemodialysis patient is $20,000-25,000 for the first 2-3 weeks.”

    http://www.amcny.org/dialysis

    I can only find one facility in the UK that offers dialysis – Queen Mother Animal Hospital - and they are only using it for dogs with a problem that is “curable,” such as poison or bacterial infection; they aren’t using this for dogs with chronic kidney failure or JRD.

    http://www.vetsonline.com/publicatio...-and-dogs.html

    What is the origin of this story and what evidence is there to back up the story?

    Pat
    Pat B
    Atlanta, GA

  5. #34
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    One of the owners talked openly about the dog's illness when he had been drinking. This was at a cavalier gathering.

    I don't know much about kidney disease but the treatment was described as dialysis and was done at a Veterinary Centre. I had a look at your last link and it says "Most cases use intermittent haemodialysis (IHD), which, like the human treatment, involves regular short, sharp treatment sessions." So perhaps that was what was being described?

    The treatment you describe at the RVC seems to be a new technology, called CRRT, which is why the RVC is the only facility offering it.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  6. #35
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    Sorry, but IHD still requires dialysis equipment which is only found at these very few veterinary centers (in the US); there is still only one center in the UK offering any kind of dialysis unless you can find others; this still requires a great deal of expense, a permanent catheter, and treatment about three times a week to sustain life. This is something that could not be hidden at all from the owner of the bitch. And a dog that is so sick that it required this kind of treatment would be in such poor condition that it could not be shown or passed off as a healthy dog during a breeding.

    You know how I feel about Cavaliers, their health problems, testing of breeding stock, etc. Despite having 12 Cavaliers over 25 years and loving the breed, I'll not own another one after my current two are gone. Nevertheless, when I see a statement that is so crazy that it cannot be possible, I feel obligated to comment.

    I know just about everything there is to know about kidney disease in dogs and the treatment options. I've studied this subject in depth for over ten years; I've attended over 20 AVMA continuing education sessions (on types of kidney disease and treatments) taught by specialists to general practice vets; I've read extensively; I've been a moderator in a yahoo canine kidney group. This is my passion, in addition to canine cardiology.

    A two year old dog with chronic kidney disease would almost certainly have juvenile renal dysplasia (JRD). This is a problem in the shih tzu breed, and there is now genetic testing for it. Keeping a dog with kidney disease alive requires a lot of effort and expense, including special diet, frequent veterinary visits and tests, multiple medications, and daily subcutaneous fluid administration (done at home). I am extremely familiar with this situation, as I’ve cared for a number of dogs with kidney disease (both chronic and acute). I currently have a 13 year old shih tzu with both heart and kidney disease (not JRD, but chronic kidney disease found in geriatric dogs). It is a great deal of work and expense to manage this disease; most breeders and pet owners will euthanize a dog with chronic or acute kidney disease, especially if they and their vets aren’t very knowledgeable about treatment. (There is nothing wrong with the decision to not treat; it’s an individual choice.)

    An intravenous fluid infusion (flush) is often done at a vet hospital in order to bring high kidney values down; this can be done at almost every vet office. This is NOT dialysis. This would not be done on a weekly basis but would rather be something done for several days when kidney disease is first diagnosed in order to improve an acute situation. Doing this once a week would be expensive and would have little value in managing chronic disease. UK vets generally don’t believe in clients doing subcutaneous fluids at home for their pets, while US vets generally encourage this option as it is cheap and often quite effective in maintaining quality of life. A UK vet might do subcutaneous fluids at his/her office since they won't let clients do this at home. Again, to be effective, subq fluids would need to be done more than once a week. Perhaps this person was referring to subq fluids administered at a vet's office.

    Any pet owner or breeder who decides to treat a dog with kidney disease will only do so because she/he loves the dog and hopes that the dog’s quality of life can be maintained in exchange for the expense and work involved. No one would make this decision in order to produce puppies to sell because the value of the “input” is far greater than the value of the “output.” Also, a dog with more than mild JRD (requiring no treatment) would not be a dog suitable for the show ring because of size and condition, etc.

    The problem in the shih tzu breed with sires and dams passing along the gene for JRD is when the dogs are bred at a young age before there are obvious symptoms of kidney disease and treatment is necessary. This is similar to the problem of SM in Cavaliers. Now that there is a genetic test for JRD, the disease could be eradicated in the shih tzu breed.

    This story just doesn't make any sense at all. If a dog with kidney disease is sick enough to require treatment, it would be exceedingly difficult to hide. And what would be the purpose of breeding such a dog?

    Pat
    Last edited by Pat; 19th March 2014 at 11:46 PM.
    Pat B
    Atlanta, GA

  7. #36
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    I suppose that this person, if the reported story is accurate, could be describing a dog that he/she is taking to a GP vet weekly for subcutaneous fluids. If that is the case and the person thinks that this is "dialysis," then he/she is a f@#king idiot as well as being morally and ethically bankrupt (with an additional alcohol problem). And if the person is not doing additional treatment for JRD such as special diet, medications for symptoms such as nausea, anorexia, elevated phosphorus, etc., as well as more frequent subq fluid administration, then the dog is going to have a shorter lifespan and poorer quality of life.

    I've known of many situations where dogs with undiagnosed JRD have been bred, but I still cannot imagine anyone (even the most unethical of breeders) breeding a dog with diagnosed kidney disease. (JRD can be diagnosed with ultrasound.) That would be like breeding a Cavalier on heart medications or a Cavalier on SM medications. I just cannot imagine such an action.

    Pat
    Pat B
    Atlanta, GA

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