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Craigowl and other breeders who refuse to MRI scan

I absolutely agree with Pauline's points, the Kennel Club should police this issue by refusing to certificate dogs if health tests and breeding protocol are not strictly adhered to by breeders. I would imagine that there must be others here like myself who rather stupidly thought that registration with the KC offered some guarantee of quality.
There must also be others here who wonder what the future holds for their beloved pets. How many of us fear that our little ones are potential time bombs regarding SM. I've even started to scrutinise my little girls behaviour and worry if she scratches for too long or rubs her face on the rug for more than a few seconds. Like many others, I should be just simply enjoying every minute with my little one, not fearing the worst and being fearful for her future.
My heart goes out to every owner who is dealing with this horrible illness.
 
Thank you Lynne (and Holly Dolly). How is Amber getting on these days??


Thanks Barbara,
Amber is doing well, but any stress like visits to the vets or walks still brings on an episode so she is limited to play in the garden, sad really as I love walks with Lady just wish Amber could join us too.
 
Trying to divert focus to puppy farming is the latest red herring from certain breeders.

I've noticed the same thing lately. Yet even if the pedigrees of our SM-affected cavaliers were posted publicly, we'd get the "it takes two to tango" excuse/argument being used to deflect responsibility amongst the club breeders. Certain breeders will go to any lengths to avoid being a part of the solution.

Another new diversion is the topic of full length scans versus mini scans - a new criticism of the current research and a future excuse to ignore the results.
 
Another new diversion is the topic of full length scans versus mini scans - a new criticism of the current research and a future excuse to ignore the results.

All these tactics are clear to see in print.
My absolute favourite is in cavalierhealth forum where the question is raised: "Is longterm damage being done to some cavaliers by MRi scans has any research been done"...?
If this is the line persistently taken to undermine the credibility of screening programmes and the dedicated work of researchers it'll take a heck of a lot more than £8,000 invested in PR to turn around the image of cavalier breeders.
 
If this is the line persistently taken to undermine the credibility of screening programmes and the dedicated work of researchers it'll take a heck of a lot more than £8,000 invested in PR to turn around the image of cavalier breeders.

I just can't believe how these people can behave so disgracefully. Some of the posts on Dog World are stunningly rude, arrogant and ill informed. Not to mention attacking the researchers trying to discredit their research. What a shabby way to treat those who are really doing their best to help the breed.
Do they not see how they look to the outside world?:sl*p:

One post did lighten my mood though, from Chloe92us:

Reading this banter is very addicting, I must say. It's like watching a circus act. On the outer ring we have Quincy and Rod, dressed in suits and ties, holding a long stick with a bone tied to a string. On the inner ring we have Bet- the pink poodle doing flips and jumping around on her back legs trying to catch the bone.:fool:

What a lovely visual image!
 
Honestly, if she were to stop posting, the reading would be much more educational. So many times the same rants are tossed out that it sidetracks the thread.
 
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Yes that made me smile too. Bet Hargreaves has made so many references too Exploding Brains, one would think she would shut up about it as she is so against the press printing this.
The more I read Norma's breed notes the more incensed I become, I realy should stop as it only serves to get me going.I have to smile at the comment she makes about being on first name terms with her vet, well whoopi woo.

Nanette
PS Another post on the Dog World website:-"Ollie and Maggie's Craigowl pedigree is not a secret, though I have kept it so for over 6 years. In the past several months in reading many of Normas breed notes and hearing that she has so many healthy, happy Cavaliers i have to set the record straight as that is so misleading to puppy buyers and other breeders. It would have been considerate at the very least if Norma over the past six years that I have had two severally affected Craigowls, would have offered a word of support, a little concern and an all out effort to do everything possible to reduce the chances of it happening again. An MRI may not be the perfect solution, but it lowers the risk, it contributes to valuable research and at the moment it is all we have. That is all I would be asking for."
 
Ollie and Maggie's Craigowl pedigree is not a secret, though I have kept it so for over 6 years. In the past several months in reading many of Normas breed notes and hearing that she has so many healthy, happy Cavaliers i have to set the record straight as that is so misleading to puppy buyers and other breeders. It would have been considerate at the very least if Norma over the past six years that I have had two severally affected Craigowls, would have offered a word of support, a little concern and an all out effort to do everything possible to reduce the chances of it happening again. An MRI may not be the perfect solution, but it lowers the risk, it contributes to valuable research and at the moment it is all we have. That is all I would be asking for. Regards, Sandy Smith

Yes, that is Sandy Smith. I have known of Sandy, and known of her affected cavaliers for about 5 years now -- from participation on some of the very early lists -- and despite having met her twice now, and being in occasional email contact, I was not aware until very recently that both her affected dogs were of Craigowl breeding. So it is a bit laughable that someone has posted on the comments that she has posted this 'everywhere' as so many of us who actually knew her and are on all those same lists never have read this before and didn't know. Her post above was a reply to that person's inaccurate statement.

Elsewhere in the Dog World comments someone stated that it should be Norma's own business whether she MRIs. But alas, she chose to make this the central topic of a public column on the cavalier breed, thus opening up her policies to scrutiny and comment. Given her profile, and supposed support for people like Sarah Blott who has said over and over that she needs breeders to keep on MRIing (a point that a few other Sarah Blott supporters keep missing! As well as the point that her work so far is based primarily on the initial work by Penny Knowler and Clare Rusbridge and the scans given to them by the vast majority of people, not the little group of some breeders who have decided to withhold them) -- saying that you won't MRI is very controversial and slap in the face to Dr Blott.

I will make a prediction right now that Sarah Blott also will quickly fall the way of ALL researchers so far, and become suddenly a lot less popular, as soon as the true implication of EBVs sinks into some breeders' heads. Many don't yet seem to register that they cannot hide the risk of their lines passing along CM/SM -- the EBVs already indicate incidence because they are based on so many of us already submitting scan results, and on the huge number already held by Penny and Clare, and as more are submitted, the finer tuned the EBVs will become.

That is why ALL owners of a scanned cavalier (or heart tested or eye tested) with a pedigree should please, please submit the information to Dr Blott for inclusion in the EBVs. A lot of breeders will find that just because they do not scan, doesn't mean many others haven't submitted information on their lines, or on dogs in which their lines feature in the near past, thus influencing their own dogs' EBVs.

Ultimately the greater the pool of data, the more precise the EBV, and the genome scan, assuming it is successful , will make the EBVs very precise indeed for risk of inheritance. Submitting test information to Sarah will help the breed and insure that no one can hide behind a 'don't ask, don't tell' no testing policy.

On the full length vs mini scan debate -- all the researchers have noted that almost all dogs with syrinxes have them at the neck, and almost none scan with syrinxes only at the base of the spine. So unless one is MRIing for a full diagnosis and to consider decompression surgery for an affected dog, there really is no reason to do full body scans to get statistically significant information. The funny thing is, the breeders most worried about 'needing' a full scan are typically those who don't MRI to begin with, and complain at paying even as little as £100 for a scan as is. For a full body scan, the cost would have to be significantly more as the full scan takes far more time and resources.
 
What always surprises me is that the breeders in denial about CM/SM don't realise that people will draw their own conclusions even from their silence. For example, in last year's Cavalier Club Year Book, Norma Inglis had a two-page advert. Not a word about her own winning dogs and their winning offspring, just a two-page spread about her new US import. My thought on seeing it (being a cynical old lady with two SM Cavaliers): 'Is she trying a new line in order to get away from SM in her own breeding? Why no mention of her own dogs?' I may be getting it wrong - but it's difficult not to be cynical about what breeders DON'T say in their adverts. Silence doesn't hide anything - it just encourages people to guess what's behind the silence.

The same with the EBV scheme. Some breeders may refuse to give information on their dogs, but if others do, then the information is out in the world anyway. For example, Oliver's father was never scanned and as far as I know is not on the EBV. But Oliver is, with the information that he has CM/SM; so clearly his father had a good chance of either having CM/SM himself, or being a carrier (as we don't know the mode of inheritance). And if anyone wanted to line-breed back to him, his EBV would include having produced at least one offspring with CM/SM (actually I know of two) - not to mention being the son and grandson of champion dogs (and widely-used sires) with CM/SM. So not putting him on the database actually doesn't conceal anything. Fortunately, although he was BIS at the club championship show, he was never a very popular sire, so his influence was limited.

Living with two dogs with CM/SM, I'm constantly learning to recognise new signs of pain. I'm not sure that there is any such thing as asymptomatic CM/SM - just CM/SM with subtle signs of pain that we don't pick up. What chance does a kennelled dog have of having such signs picked up, when dogs who are with their owners 24/7 still get their symptoms missed?

And on puppy farming: a friend of mine went to buy a puppy from one of the most successful breeders, who told him that at any one time she had 50 puppies in her kennels. What's that but puppy farming?

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 

These lists can be very deceptive. The term " Health Tested" is too often used to give credibility to cavaliers and their owners when minimum checks are performed ( and of course the term does not guarantee that the results of the test was good )

If you look at the individual entries in the Champdogs list some of them are very vague about actually what health testing they do. Others only list the cheapest and easiest tests.

I give advice to buyers and non-show breeders. So often they report back that breeders advertising their dogs in Cavalier Club Yearbooks and on Breeders lists are unable to produce the advertised health certificates when asked.

Interesting to see this thread revived and to read what was written.........Karlin was right about Sarah Blott falling out of favour. The same happened with Dr Imelda Mcgonnell and her Foetal Tissue Research when her studies showed there were serious problems in skull bone growth in foetal cavaliers.

Five years on but still very few breeders actually MRI scanning older dogs, in fact there is very little evidence that top breeders are scanning at all. What is happening is more and more young cavaliers are being diagnosed with painful SM, not surprising as the majority of breeders are still breeding from unscanned ( probably affected ) cavaliers.

Some of the breeders named above are not only ignoring the rise in the incidence of SM but they are knowingly taking the risk of introducing more health problems by breeding from young dogs with a family history of renal disease............... I thought I had heard it all but breeding from a two year old dog undergoing weekly dialysis for kidney disease strikes me as extraordinarily irresponsible and callous.
 
I have to agree that unfortunately, "health tested" is the most deceptive and misused of phrases and going on adverts on those dog breeder sites, almost always means the most inexpensive and lower-level tests, not the ones that are most important: buyers want to start with seeing a breeder MRIs and cardiologist tests, going hand-in-hand with following breeding protocols for both CM/SM and hearts, for BOTH sire and dam -- then lots of others of course too but these two are really paramount as a *starting* point (y). "Health tested" too often means the breeder simply had her vet give her dogs and/or puppies a once-over, or only tested eyes etc as Margaret notes -- just ludicrously inadequate and meaningless these days, for cavaliers.

I would not advise using the Champdogs list as anything more than the most basic of starting points -- same as using a list from a breed club, one of the breed publications, or a recommendation from someone with a cavalier. But most buyers do need a starting point. :)


How eye opening to see this thread again and read what people were encountering and thinking half a decade ago. Too many of the predictions have come true and too little has changed.

Breeding from a dog on dialysis? How can doing something like that not be an automatic expulsion from a club? Who continues to tolerate this kind of thing -- surely others in the persons breed club must be aware? That's omertà -- the breeder code of silence --at its most disgusting.
 
Breeding from a dog on dialysis? How can doing something like that not be an automatic expulsion from a club? Who continues to tolerate this kind of thing -- surely others in the persons breed club must be aware? That's omertà -- the breeder code of silence --at its most disgusting.

Margaret said:
I thought I had heard it all but breeding from a two year old dog undergoing weekly dialysis for kidney disease strikes me as extraordinarily irresponsible and callous.

I don’t know the source of the story of a two-year old Cavalier dog on weekly dialysis being used for stud, but this cannot possibly be true.

There are only a handful of places in the US that do dialysis for animals. Dialysis would have to be done about three times a week in order to keep an animal alive, not weekly. A dog undergoing dialysis would have a permanent catheter in place (changed at regular intervals) so you could not hide this. The cost would be extraordinary; I can’t imagine that the value of a stud dog’s offspring would warrant such an expense:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=1749

“Our standard dialysis estimate is $3500-$4000 for the first 2-3 treatments and $600-$700 per treatment thereafter.”

Here’s another estimate – “The average estimate for the care of a hemodialysis patient is $20,000-25,000 for the first 2-3 weeks.”

http://www.amcny.org/dialysis

I can only find one facility in the UK that offers dialysis – Queen Mother Animal Hospital - and they are only using it for dogs with a problem that is “curable,” such as poison or bacterial infection; they aren’t using this for dogs with chronic kidney failure or JRD.

http://www.vetsonline.com/publicati...eakthrough-in-dialysis-for-cats-and-dogs.html

What is the origin of this story and what evidence is there to back up the story?

Pat
 
One of the owners talked openly about the dog's illness when he had been drinking. This was at a cavalier gathering.

I don't know much about kidney disease but the treatment was described as dialysis and was done at a Veterinary Centre. I had a look at your last link and it says "Most cases use intermittent haemodialysis (IHD), which, like the human treatment, involves regular short, sharp treatment sessions." So perhaps that was what was being described?

The treatment you describe at the RVC seems to be a new technology, called CRRT, which is why the RVC is the only facility offering it.
 
Sorry, but IHD still requires dialysis equipment which is only found at these very few veterinary centers (in the US); there is still only one center in the UK offering any kind of dialysis unless you can find others; this still requires a great deal of expense, a permanent catheter, and treatment about three times a week to sustain life. This is something that could not be hidden at all from the owner of the bitch. And a dog that is so sick that it required this kind of treatment would be in such poor condition that it could not be shown or passed off as a healthy dog during a breeding.

You know how I feel about Cavaliers, their health problems, testing of breeding stock, etc. Despite having 12 Cavaliers over 25 years and loving the breed, I'll not own another one after my current two are gone. Nevertheless, when I see a statement that is so crazy that it cannot be possible, I feel obligated to comment.

I know just about everything there is to know about kidney disease in dogs and the treatment options. I've studied this subject in depth for over ten years; I've attended over 20 AVMA continuing education sessions (on types of kidney disease and treatments) taught by specialists to general practice vets; I've read extensively; I've been a moderator in a yahoo canine kidney group. This is my passion, in addition to canine cardiology.

A two year old dog with chronic kidney disease would almost certainly have juvenile renal dysplasia (JRD). This is a problem in the shih tzu breed, and there is now genetic testing for it. Keeping a dog with kidney disease alive requires a lot of effort and expense, including special diet, frequent veterinary visits and tests, multiple medications, and daily subcutaneous fluid administration (done at home). I am extremely familiar with this situation, as I’ve cared for a number of dogs with kidney disease (both chronic and acute). I currently have a 13 year old shih tzu with both heart and kidney disease (not JRD, but chronic kidney disease found in geriatric dogs). It is a great deal of work and expense to manage this disease; most breeders and pet owners will euthanize a dog with chronic or acute kidney disease, especially if they and their vets aren’t very knowledgeable about treatment. (There is nothing wrong with the decision to not treat; it’s an individual choice.)

An intravenous fluid infusion (flush) is often done at a vet hospital in order to bring high kidney values down; this can be done at almost every vet office. This is NOT dialysis. This would not be done on a weekly basis but would rather be something done for several days when kidney disease is first diagnosed in order to improve an acute situation. Doing this once a week would be expensive and would have little value in managing chronic disease. UK vets generally don’t believe in clients doing subcutaneous fluids at home for their pets, while US vets generally encourage this option as it is cheap and often quite effective in maintaining quality of life. A UK vet might do subcutaneous fluids at his/her office since they won't let clients do this at home. Again, to be effective, subq fluids would need to be done more than once a week. Perhaps this person was referring to subq fluids administered at a vet's office.

Any pet owner or breeder who decides to treat a dog with kidney disease will only do so because she/he loves the dog and hopes that the dog’s quality of life can be maintained in exchange for the expense and work involved. No one would make this decision in order to produce puppies to sell because the value of the “input” is far greater than the value of the “output.” Also, a dog with more than mild JRD (requiring no treatment) would not be a dog suitable for the show ring because of size and condition, etc.

The problem in the shih tzu breed with sires and dams passing along the gene for JRD is when the dogs are bred at a young age before there are obvious symptoms of kidney disease and treatment is necessary. This is similar to the problem of SM in Cavaliers. Now that there is a genetic test for JRD, the disease could be eradicated in the shih tzu breed.

This story just doesn't make any sense at all. If a dog with kidney disease is sick enough to require treatment, it would be exceedingly difficult to hide. And what would be the purpose of breeding such a dog?

Pat
 
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I suppose that this person, if the reported story is accurate, could be describing a dog that he/she is taking to a GP vet weekly for subcutaneous fluids. If that is the case and the person thinks that this is "dialysis," then he/she is a f@#king idiot as well as being morally and ethically bankrupt (with an additional alcohol problem). And if the person is not doing additional treatment for JRD such as special diet, medications for symptoms such as nausea, anorexia, elevated phosphorus, etc., as well as more frequent subq fluid administration, then the dog is going to have a shorter lifespan and poorer quality of life.

I've known of many situations where dogs with undiagnosed JRD have been bred, but I still cannot imagine anyone (even the most unethical of breeders) breeding a dog with diagnosed kidney disease. (JRD can be diagnosed with ultrasound.) That would be like breeding a Cavalier on heart medications or a Cavalier on SM medications. I just cannot imagine such an action.

Pat
 
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