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Resignations of key CKCS Club members/Margaret BACK as health rep!

Hello Pauline

When a painful and hereditary health condition is widespread in a breed and there is a way of lowering the risk of this by health screening, it is an animal cruelty issue if screening is ignored.

There is nothing in our Animal Welfare legislation or in the current self regulatory system of pedigree dog breeding to prevent this cruelty from happening. It was this discovery that led me to take the action that I did, in contacting my MP and the Companion Animal Welfare Council.

None of the measures taken by the KC so far, since PDE, really changes this. Also, the debacle within the UK Cavalier Club committee is a further demonstration that prorities do not seem to lie with guardianship of the breed and care about the dogs.

I for one will not be giving up until there is some real protection for pedigree dogs from this kind of cruelty and irresponsibility.

Carol
 
Talking about Animal Welfare Legislation here is something interesting that has already come into effect as State Law in the State of Victoria Australia. It’s a start where in time more heritable defects might be added to the list, and being State Law it could apply to any dog or cat in the State.

See via this link and in relation to the Penalty Units it’s $6,840 for an individual and $34,200 for a body corporate, but note persons found guilty it’s not just involving money but a criminal conviction is imposed by the court.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/legis/vic/consol_act/poctaa1986360/s15c.html

Here is the Table that goes with the above where in time more might be added.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/poctaa1986360/sch1.html
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Reading the last couple of pages of this thread has literally made me feel kind of sick. When I read here at the height of the PDE storm several months ago that Beverly Costello had said she would never breed/show Cavaliers again, I was relieved and I even had a little more respect for her for at least being ashamed of her actions in breeding that dog. Apparently when the band of unethical Club supporters surrounded her, they have now convinced her that she did nothing wrong, so she is now not only breeding THAT DOG again, but she is even going to judge?!! That is truly sickening.

Such a huge amount of pain and suffering caused among these beautiful, gentle little dogs and their owners by such awful, egotistical, immoral people. If no one buys their dogs, would they be forced to quit breeding, or are they all independently wealthy enough to continue breeding and showing without the supplemental income they get from puppies? I don't know the show world much, but from what I see of it, it's not something I would EVER want to become involved in. I would MUCH rather buy from a non-show breeder who focuses on health -- does such a breeder exist out there?
 
I would MUCH rather buy from a non-show breeder who focuses on health -- does such a breeder exist out there?
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I don't believe so!
Not all show breeders should be tarred with the same brush.There are increasing numbers out there who are prepared to screen for genetic disorders.They deserve the support of the pet buying public.
Non show breeders would be less likely to have healthy pups, the breeding stock would be from questionable origins,have zero health testing done and your pups can only be as healthy as the stock from which they're bred.Even if they scanned and screened they would still originate from sub standard dogs.
As for the behaviour of the elated members of the CKCS Club,who are willing to see elected club officers,fellow members,Mrs Carter and the reputation of the breed club become collateral damage in their efforts to further their own aims - well, if they consider this ethical behaviour towards their fellow members, I have little faith in their ability to deal ethically with the health issues in the breed.
 
sins said:
I don't believe so!
Not all show breeders should be tarred with the same brush.There are increasing numbers out there who are prepared to screen for genetic disorders.They deserve the support of the pet buying public.
Non show breeders would be less likely to have healthy pups, the breeding stock would be from questionable origins,have zero health testing done and your pups can only be as healthy as the stock from which they're bred.Even if they scanned and screened they would still originate from sub standard dogs.
As for the behaviour of the elated members of the CKCS Club,who are willing to see elected club officers,fellow members,Mrs Carter and the reputation of the breed club become collateral damage in their efforts to further their own aims - well, if they consider this ethical behaviour towards their fellow members, I have little faith in their ability to deal ethically with the health issues in the breed.
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I totally agree with everything you have said here. This has become a pesonal vendetta and they were willing to sacrifice the Club and put the research in jeapordy to get their own way. I am totally disgusted and I feel whoever was involved in this should be asked to resign their memberahip of the Club. How can members now have any faith or trust in a club that allows this to go on. Were they so afraid that they couldn't win a vote by fair means. Not all of Margarets supporters could get to the SGM but we could all most certainly have voted.
Margaret you have proved your loyalty to this club by standing down and have shown more integrity than the lot of them put together. This whole debacle is a total disgrace.
 
I would MUCH rather buy from a non-show breeder who focuses on health -- does such a breeder exist out there?
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I understand that this person may exist only in my imagination, but I was only expressing a wish that buying a healthy puppy didn't require buying from a show breeder, when what so many of them think about are looks, looks, looks above all else since that's what they are rewarded for in the show ring by very definition. Given the way things are designed, the result is that an unhealthy dog that looks great gets rewarded over and over, and is bred extensively, while the healthy dog that maybe has a little bit more domed head, or a little bigger head, is immediately relegated to "restricted registration" and cannot be bred, ever. That just seems so irrational to me.

I know there are some wonderful, ethical breeders out there who do all the tests available, but I think they are rare, incredibly expensive, and very hard to find. You and I and most people on this board might be willing to go to the time, effort, and expense to find these people, but it leaves the average puppy buyer pretty much out of luck and drives them straight to the puppy mill dogs. I know this has been discussed to death, but I would wish for a world where it was health first, looks second, and I just don't see that happening in the dog show world as we know it.
 
There are many ethical, health focused breeders. There are very (at most a tiny handful!) few non-show breeders who do anything remotely close to the effort put into breeding properly for health AND conformation that a dedicated show breeder will put in. The only ones I know of are former show breeders who do not now actively show, for a range of reasons. Non show breeders start with poor quality dogs in most cases because reputable, health focused breeders would never even consider selling such people breeding dogs.

Please do not even consider looking for a puppy, ever, from a non show breeder on the mistaken assumption that such people will focus more on health! The exact opposite is generally the case but many will advertise to imply they 'do tests' and focus on health.

I have posted guidelines for finding a puppy from a reputable, health focused breeder in the Library. This, as with anything worthwhile in life, takes time and dedication. If anyone can find a nonshow breeder who can produce the documentation I recommend then go ahead and consider them for a puppy. But I wouldn't count on it.

Better to opt for a rescue cavalier if finding a good breeder seems impossible. :) They always need caring homes. (y)
 
Just to say that all three of my dogs are from a Non –Show Breeder, and she does belong to the CKCS Club and does all the testing. Rosies & Harleys mum is 7 years old and is still clear of MVD, also Ebony’s mum is 5 ½ years old and clear of MVD, there Fathers are all show dogs. She cares passionately about the health of her dogs. We have become friends and any problems I can ring her day or night. She took me along to the Malvern Show (she was having her dogs tested there) for me to see first hand why she is not interested in showing. I am glad she did take me along, but I must say I wanted to go home after one hour. There I witnessed first hand a conversation she was having with someone who shows there dogs, is a breeder and also is a judge. This person was telling her that the dog they were showing there had been diagnosed with a heart murmur and they went on to say that they still would use it as a stud dog. Well I could have dropped dead.
Suppose I am lucky she is only interested in the dog’s health as when I bought my first Cavalier I didn’t have a clue about all the health issues. It was actually the breeder who made me aware of all the health issues cavaliers can have. Unfortunately at that time she didn’t know much about SM, but she will scan if she has any more litters.
 
Sabby said:
Just to say that all three of my dogs are from a Non –Show Breeder, and she does belong to the CKCS Club and does all the testing. Rosies & Harleys mum is 7 years old and is still clear of MVD, also Ebony’s mum is 5 ½ years old and clear of MVD, there Fathers are all show dogs. She cares passionately about the health of her dogs. We have become friends and any problems I can ring her day or night. She took me along to the Malvern Show (she was having her dogs tested there) for me to see first hand why she is not interested in showing. I am glad she did take me along, but I must say I wanted to go home after one hour. There I witnessed first hand a conversation she was having with someone who shows there dogs, is a breeder and also is a judge. This person was telling her that the dog they were showing there had been diagnosed with a heart murmur and they went on to say that they still would use it as a stud dog. Well I could have dropped dead.
Suppose I am lucky she is only interested in the dog’s health as when I bought my first Cavalier I didn’t have a clue about all the health issues. It was actually the breeder who made me aware of all the health issues cavaliers can have. Unfortunately at that time she didn’t know much about SM, but she will scan if she has any more litters.
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Sabby, your breeder sounds very much like my breeder ( I am actually wondering if they are the same - will pm you about that...)

I was going to show my two but hearing the bitchiness and backstabbing that goes on in showing I thought better of it. It also seems like showing is more about the face at the handle end of the lead and NOT whats on the "doggie" end of the lead.
 
Just to say that all three of my dogs are from a Non –Show Breeder, and she does belong to the CKCS Club and does all the testing
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I got Toby from a lady who I used to do agility with 12 years ago who was a member of the CKCS Club but did not show her dogs. She was an occassional breeder who had a litter when she wanted another dog herself, or had a few people she knew wanted a puppy, but was very careful about who she mated her dogs with (and who she let have one of her puppies).

She did all the heart testing on her own dogs and made sure the sire was also heart cleared: I don't know whether this was because she did agility with her Cavaliers and therefore wanted a healthy a dog a possible. I did agility with Toby when he was young; he developed a mild heart mumur at 8 years old. Toby now has a grade 2/3 heart mumur now, but remains relatively healthy and does not need medication at present.

By the time I got Rufus she had moved from this area on retirement, so I went via the Kennel Club list. Rufus' breeder did show, and had heart certificates, but I didn't know that SM was a problem so I never asked about that. She did only breed from older sires though, and didn't used young dogs as she said she prefered to use an older sire that she knew to be healthy, rather than a young dog that could develop problems later.

Returning to the current issues with the CKCS Club Committee, I am now quite confused about what is going on and who is saying what (been reading too many posts I think), but no doubt time will tell.
 
Hi Pauline

A belated answer to your question about whether you think my MP or the Companion Animal Welfare Council (CAWC) can change things.

I think no single person or organisation can bring about a change in a system that has been in operation for so long. But clearly that system has catastrophically failed pedigree dogs because it is unregulated.

PDE has made the public aware of these failings and public awareness is one of the most important vehicles for change. Puppy buyers and pet owners now understand the issues more and will hopefully do their research before choosing a dog breed or a particular breeder. They will know what questions to ask and what health certificates need to be produced. Hopefully they will walk away from a breeder who does not fulfill those requirements.

CAWC was aware of the problems in pedigree dog breeding and published their Report on Breeding and Welfare in 2006. DEFRA were also aware of the problems and have been having discussions with the KC since around 2006. The KC launched its Accredited Breeders Scheme in 2005, but no-one is fooled by that, are they? CAWC also produced a Report in 2008, 'Tackling Genetic Welfare Problems', where Syringomyelia in CKCS was used as an example. Out of that will come an official MRI scheme and hopefully an offiicial scheme (as opposed to the current breed club scheme) for heart testing.

Now we have the Associate Parliamentary Group for Animal Welfare (APGAW)'s working group to look at pedigree dog breeding. They are currently calling for evidence and will produce their Report which will go to Government (they recently did something similar on the welfare of Greyhounds). Last week the Chairman of the Dogs Trust/Kennel Club Review was announced (Prof. Pat Bateson) and they will conduct their own 'call for evidence' and produce a Report. There is a possibility also of a DEFRA Select Committee on Pedigree Dog Breeding (note 'possibilty', it's not certain that this will take place). On return from the Christmas recess, my MP lodged a House of Commons Early Day Motion (EDM) to the effect that measures so far taken by the KC do not go far enough. And maybe, best of all there will be a PDE follow-up documentary which I hope will show what measures have been taken so far and how successful they have been. It will keep the issue in the public eye.

So, I think that with all these things happening, we should expect some fundamental change in pedigree dog breeding. Of course there will still be bad breeders and uncaring or incompetent breed clubs. Then it will be down to us to find the good ones and always ask for proof of health testing. There are already some wonderful Cavalier breeders who do their utmost to produce healthy puppies and are honest with pet owners. Somehow I have a feeling that their numbers will grow and that Cavaliers will become the healthy and 'sporty' little Spaniels they are meant to be.

Carol
 
Karlin said:
Please do not even consider looking for a puppy, ever, from a non show breeder on the mistaken assumption that such people will focus more on health! The exact opposite is generally the case but many will advertise to imply they 'do tests' and focus on health.
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Ditto. I totally agree. Finding a health-conscious non-show breeder is far less likely than finding a show breeder with the same emphasis on health. I would not waste my time looking for such a non-show breeder.

There are suggestions on how to find health-conscious breeders in the US on the www.cavalierhealth.org website at http://www.cavalierhealth.org/breeders.htm#HOW_TO_FIND Those tips will work for you, but you need to take the initiative and also be patient. Such breeders' puppies often are less frequent and in high demand.
 
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