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Thread: MVD report

  1. #21
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    I have to agree with Bet that the internet may be thing to help with the MVD and SM issues that the Cavalier breed faces. It may not be that most new buyers of Cavaliers will know to ask for certificates, but us "repeat offenders" will certainly know. In addition, with the internet it is much easier to research the ages at which dogs are being bred to determine which breeders are more closely following the MVD protocols and who are totally ignoring it. I guess I am just having a hard time understanding why a breeder would not follow the guidelines that their own clubs recommend to improve the health of these wonderful little dogs.
    J.
    J. and pups, Gem, Monty, Harley and Sapphire

  2. #22
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    The depth of the heart problem in the breed is apparent to me from doing rescue and utterly soul-destroying, not least because so many -- pet buyers and breeders -- seem to just accept it now as the norm and have lost all sense of outrage and on the one hand, would rather get the cheaper, quicker puppy than support a good breeder with the proper heart certs and breeding programme, or on the other, think the MVD protocol is a great idea but don't really follow it themselves in their breeding programme.

    I take my rescue dogs as they come in to the vets that I feel give the best heart readings and the majority of dogs coming in over 5-ish will have a murmur.

    Many of those with murmurs were used for breeding. I think of Sam who went to Mattiesmum, who came in with a severe, high grade murmur and had been a stud dog. The vet was shocked at the state of his heart and thought he might only live a few weeks -- happily he had far longer than that thanks to a loving home and proper medications. The breeder told me I didn't need to neuter him because he could still be used at stud for a few years more by his new family. Yet his heartbeat was so slow the vet couldn't even believe he was alive.

    Then there's poor Suzy who just came in with Tizzy, again from an IKC (Irish Kennel Club) breeder. She has a grade 4 or 5 murmur at about age 5-6 and is being rehomed because she has had the maximum number of litters allowable for the breeder to have received IKC registration for the puppies. That's six litters of puppies from a mother with a severe murmur who probably was never once heart tested or only tested at a young age that was meaningless for the MVD protocol (what you don't know you don't have to feel guilty about). Those genes likely went to many of those puppies, and no doubt many of those puppies will be casually bred by owners who think having a few litters to sell would be nice.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  3. #23
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    pet buyers and breeders -- seem to just accept it now as the norm and have lost all sense of outrage
    So sad but so true. I speak from my personal experience. Shelby was diagnosed with a grade 4 murmur and my response was "I'm not surprised. Having 2 I knew that would eventually happen" And I speak with numerous pet owners who are mostly resigned to the fact that one day we will have to deal with MVD in our pets. Resigned and only inwardly outraged. So sad but so true. I've never really thought about it until now, that I'm resigned rather than outraged.
    Cathy
    Loving mom to Jake, Shelby and Micah

  4. #24
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    We ought to recognize that MVD is pervasive in the CKCS, and it will remain so, much like Chiari-like Malformation. We cannot get rid of MVD without getting rid of the breed.

    Early-onset (a murmur by the fifth birthday) MVD should be a different matter. That can be eliminated in as few as two or three future generations, if breeders would follow the MVD breeding protocol. Nearly all breeders don't, of course, so early-onset MVD remains a 50-50 chance for each dog produced.

    I was reading on another CKCS-List today about this Cavalier breeder in Oklahoma who proudly claims that breeders health test and agonize over decisions, and that her cardiologist thinks progress is being made, and she really doesn't know how much more they can do, and so on.

    Well, her breeder friends don't follow the protocol. Some of them may test their stocks' hearts, and some of those may not use stock which come up with murmurs, but they still breed underaged (under 2.5 years) Cavaliers, and the fact remains that an underaged Cavalier with a clear heart is just an underaged Cavalier that ought not be bred yet.

    Perhaps the age of onset is being pushed back a little bit among those breeders who really do test and then only breed the (underaged) ones which pass. But when you consider that the MVD protocol was introduced eleven years ago in the US, if all breeders began following it then, they would have produced three to four generations of Cavaliers since then, and the end result could have been that early-onset MVD would have been eliminated by now.

    Then this Oklahoma breeder attacks a Connecticut CKCS breeder (one, I must say, who has vast more CKCS breeding experience, health testing experience, and winning-in-the-ring experience than the Oklahoma lady, and who does in fact follow the MVD breeding protocol) for daring to state facts about some cardiologists not feeling that any progress is being made.

    The Oklahoma lady's bottom line is that Cavalier people should control the dissemination of negative commentary about the breed. So, that is the typical US Cavalier breeder's solution to the early-onset MVD problem: Don't disclose any of the bad news, and then everything will be all right!

  5. #25
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    I have a question for the experts here (as I am certainly not one). If there are so few U.S. breeders following the MVD protocols, what can be done to make them do so?

    I know power is in the hands of puppy buyers, and education is paramount. But it is extremely difficult to get a puppy from one of the few breeders who adhere to both MVD and SM protocols. A buyer has to be willing to hound these people to make contact, wait a decent period of time for a puppy, and possibly travel far for their dog. I'm not saying this isn't reasonable (I did each of these things), but it's just not a process all people will go through. I found making contact with these breeders to be the most difficult -- and I'm a very persistent person.

    I don't mean to criticize good breeders at all. I completely "get" that they have lives, field a lot of puppy inquiries, go to shows, etc. But what can be done to create more breeders who follow protocols; and how can we make access to the "good ones" easier for the average puppy buyer?

    BYB's or even club breeders who are cutting corners in their breeding programs are really good salespeople. I'm in no way supporting what they do, but I can see why some puppy buyers are attracted.

  6. #26
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    Default MVD Report

    Please read the bottom sentence Posted by Rod, his mention is unfortunately true of a number of Cavalier Breeders here in Britain.

    Will Mandatory Health Testing ,and I can only speak about Britain ,help in the SM and MVD Problems in our Cavaliers.?

    Have any others on the List got views about this.?

    It has been shown that quite a few Cavalier Breeders are not heeding the UK CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guidelines for MVD ,and some did'nt even want Breeding Guidelines introduced for the fight against SM.

    I know that Nikki Pauli, the President of the British Veterinary Association, has recently said that for Cavaliers ,Mandatory Health Testing for MVD and SM will be being introduced shortly,but that is for those who are Accredited Breeders only.There are unfortunately quite a few Cavalier Top Breeders not on the Accredited Breeders List.

    Bet(Hargreaves)

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    The depth of the heart problem in the breed is apparent to me from doing rescue and utterly soul-destroying, not least because so many -- pet buyers and breeders -- seem to just accept it now as the norm
    Last year I was running a scheme, similar to the SM cavalier collection scheme, giving financial assistance to owners willing to volunteer their cavaliers for postmortem when they died.

    Two of the cavaliers were seven years old and had collapsed and died from MVD. These were cavaliers frrom well known show stock.

    This was the moment I stopped, thought, and recognised that although we boasted that we had a MVD protocol, nobody was using it properly.

    The discussion on the other list, that Rod mentions, is very interesting...... We have one of the top importers of UK show cavaliers making offensive comments because I posted Simon Swift's entire article from the Cavalier Club website, instead of letting them cherry pick bits to put their own spin on.
    A little later the Southern Club Health Representative ( and Chairman, perhaps too much power in one breeders hands? ) bitterly attacked Simon for acknowledging on 'Pedigree Dogs Exposed' that no progress had been made by UK breeders in tackling early onset MVD.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  8. #28
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    Default MVD Report

    I have noticed the comments you mentioned,Margaret, Can I say here I am getting it in the Neck as well ,what is that person's Problem ,surely the debate should be about helping our Cavalier Breed to live Healthier ,Longer Lives.

    Bet(Hargreaves)

  9. #29
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    I thought I would just check out on the breeders forum what they thought the role of a health representative should be.

    It will be interesting to see whether there are any answers

    http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/foru...0663#post10663
    Last edited by Margaret C; 17th July 2009 at 11:13 PM. Reason: spelling
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  10. #30
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    Default MVD Report

    Could I just say as a Heart Broken Cavalier Pet Owner, because of the MVD Problem in our Breed ,and there will be others on this List ,who have suffered the same Heart Ache because of the SM Problem in Cavaliers, that I was really shocked at how the discussion developed to-day,the CKCS Health Representative, seems to be saying that Prospective Cavalier Puppy Buyers should not be being advised to see a Certificate showing that the Sire and Dam had been Health Checked for either SM or MVD.

    What an out-look for the Future Health of Cavaliers.

    Bet(Hargreaves)

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