• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

New UK Study of CKCS with CM shows brain too big for its caudal fossa

RodRussell

Well-known member
Who was it that wrote awhile back about Cavaliers having brains too big for their skulls? Well, maybe some of them do after all.

In a research study -- "Comparison of cerebral cranium volumes between cavalier King Charles spaniels with Chiari-like malformation, small breed dogs and Labradors" -- published in this month's issue of the Journal of Small Animal Practice, Hannah Cross, Clare Rusbridge, and Rodolfo Cappello found that Cavaliers do not have a proportionately smaller caudal fossa compared to other small breeds, but that the CKCS's brain is comparatively large.

See details at http://www.cavalierhealth.org/syringomyelia.htm#comparing_the_cerebral_cranium
or http://tinyurl.com/mnmd49
 
New UK Study of CKCS Shows Brain Too Big for it's Caudal Fossa.

I would like to ask this Question,

Because it has now been mentioned that the Cavaliers have a larger Brain,and a number of Cavalier Folk have said how the Cavaliers' Skulls are Smaller than they were a number of years ago ,because of the Cavaliers' Heads Becoming Smaller, did their Brain not become Smaller as well ,and could be why their Brain is Larger than their Heads.

I don't know ,but if this is the case , is the Cavalier Breed in big trouble,since many ,many Cavaliers World Wide now have this Smaller Type of Head.

Any-body got thoughts about this.

Bet (Hargreaves)
 
I read that its the genes, when cavs were first bred using toy spaniels and flat faced lapdogs, the genes controlling the size of the brain and the genes controlling the skull size are from different types of dogs and dont correspond, there for is some dogs the skull grows to the lap dog size and the brain grows to the spaniel size causing problems. Some cavaliers have the same size brain as bigger spaniels but not the same size skull. I think its only a therory but makes sense.
 
It isn't yet understood how or why this happens -- this is what researchers are trying to figure out. The issue does seem to be genetic and to have something to do with breeding for smaller size as only small breeds seem to have SM with this cause. Being flat or flatter-faced is also a factor it seems.

This research demonstrates that there is actually a skull size/brain size issue, as Dr Rusbridge had proposed some time back. The foetal tissue research in the UK recently also indicated a mismatch in development between skull and brain size where the skull stops growing to match the brain's size.

It is very exciting to see some puzzle pieces begin to fit together and get this type of cross-confirmation between researchers. The Canadian gene research and its initial genetic work on CKCS had also indicated early on (a couple of years ago) that genes in the area that controls brain/skull development were likely candidates for the problem gene(s).
 
Rod, Should we start using the shoe analogy again?!?! I was hoping I would never hear that again! :eek::eek::eek::eek:

Very interesting research...it's amazing how quickly researchers are working to help the Cavalier! There is light at the end of the tunnel...maybe.
 
Rod, Should we start using the shoe analogy again?!?! I was hoping I would never hear that again! :eek::eek::eek::eek:

Very interesting research...it's amazing how quickly researchers are working to help the Cavalier! There is light at the end of the tunnel...maybe.

I believe that Dr. Rusbridge used the foot-in-the-shoe analogy in her seminar presentations, and then Bet took it and ran with it.
 
The foetal tissue research in the UK recently also indicated a mismatch in development between skull and brain size where the skull stops growing to match the brain's size.

Yeah, what she said! I think Karlin has distilled it for us.
 
New UK Study of CKCS with CM Shows Brain Too Big for its Caudal Fossa.

Are we now at last getting somewhere with the SM Problem in our Cavalier Breed?

Looks like Dr C Rusbridge has been right all along, could the New Look Type of Cavalier Skull ,giving the Pretty Look to Cavaliers World Wide ,with Smaller Heads, be part of the Problem.

This Smaller type of Head only appeared in Cavaliers about 15 years or so ago.

A number of To- days Cavalier Owners won't understand what I am talking about, but Cavaliers did'nt always look how they do to-day.

This could be making sense, if at the time this Pretty Look first appeared in the Show Ring in Cavaliers ,and started winning ,then Bingo , Many Cavalier Breeders would jump on the Band Waggon,so that they also could have a Winning Cavalier.

So is it now down to the Cavalier Breeders to go back to the Older Type of Cavalier Head that Cavaliers used to have, or is it too late ,because this Type of Skull will now be involving Cavaliers carrying the Gene responsible for SM.

Bet(Hargreaves)
 
Bet or someone would you be able to post a link or picture as to what a cavaliers head shape was say 20years ago?
thank you
 
I love looking at the old pictures. It's funny, when you think about it, that today, a lot of the "poor breds" look like the originals with their longer legs, noses and flat skulls! :eek:
 
I love looking at the old pictures. It's funny, when you think about it, that today, a lot of the "poor breds" look like the originals with their longer legs, noses and flat skulls! :eek:


I think we must be the unlucky ones as i chose Ruby specifically for her old Cavvie look. I will try to post some photos foor you to see. I dont like the look of the Show Cavs which is why I Chose Ruby.
She has the old style longer nose and head although she has still been plagued by SM.
It must be the genes as if it was just down to size and shape Ruby shouldnt have SM!!

Karen and Ruby
 
I have an old-school-looking Cavalier too. ;) And another that just looks like a miniature St. Bernard with the size of his head! :eek:
 
I think we must be the unlucky ones as i chose Ruby specifically for her old Cavvie look. I will try to post some photos foor you to see. I dont like the look of the Show Cavs which is why I Chose Ruby.
She has the old style longer nose and head although she has still been plagued by SM.
It must be the genes as if it was just down to size and shape Ruby shouldnt have SM!!

Karen and Ruby


I have added 3 photos to the community photo albums if you wanted to look- they arent the most flattering photos but they are the best angles to see her head shape!

Karen
 
Ah I finally managed to get a picture on for when I post but you can see the length of her nose in this one even!
i think she is the most beautiful Cavvie in the world but then Im bias I supose!!!!!!!!!:wggle:
 
New UK Study of CKCS Shows Brain Too Big for it's Caudal Fossa.

This is just a thought ,I have looked at the Photos mentioned, could it be possible that some Cavalier Breeders ,behind Closed Doors, have been crossing Cavaliers with King Charles Spaniels, this is how Cavaliers are looking smaller in size now-a-days.

Many Cavaliers have what I call wee Snub Noses, like KCS.

Bet hargreaves
 
New UK Study of CKCS Shows Brain Too Big for it's Caudal Fossa

Thanks Sins , for putting the WebSite up, I had'nt known about my Article being on it.

The Photo of Ch .DAYWELL ROGER, is exactly like what the Cavalier Heads used to look like.

Then Cavalier Dogs and up to about 30 years ago looked liked Dogs , not Pretty ,Pretty like they look to-day. !!!!

Ch Homaranne Caption ,born 1976 ,lived to 15 ,and is the back-ground of many Long Lived Cavaliers ,also had this same DOG look .

Why has the the New Type Look become the Norm for Cavalier Dogs. ???

Bet (Hargreaves)
 
Bet said "some Cavalier Breeders ,behind Closed Doors, have been crossing Cavaliers with King Charles Spaniels, this is how Cavaliers are looking smaller in size now-a-days. "

Oh Bet thanks for saying something I have wondered for years!

While I would NEVER say anything was deliberate!! I have seen the popularity of the KCS grow and become a favorite of the CKCS breeder/exhibiters for many years now. The look of the Charlie and particularly the temperament has become more Cavalier like. I feel the Charlie dome is not as pronounced as it was when the Charlie was a more select breed owned by a few who guarded the breed fiercely.These are just my personal observations but I fear the breed stalwarts that have dwindled now would be sad as Charlie pups are now turning up on internet puppy sites.Accidents can and do happen ,as Cavaliers are already a "mixed" breed would DNA tets pick this up?
 
Evelin I thought exactly the same thing when I visited Crufts this year- I actually went to see some friends in the healwork to music and obedience competitions however I couldnt help but go and have a look round all the Cavaliers. I must say I was very suprised at the difference I saw between these show dogs and my own Ruby. Suprised and Shocked!! It definatly looked like the two breeds (Charlies and Cavs) are beginning to merge back in to one another. They are two breeds for a reason so why can people just leave them as so.

Karen and Ruby x
 
Dr Rusbridge once remarked that proportionately (given the preponderance of blenheims and tris) a lot of rubies seemed to have SM. Looking at old photos, the rubies and black and tans often seem to have rounder heads and shorter noses, and I have often wondered whether some of the first Cavaliers were long-nosed rejects from whole colour litters of Charlies and whole colour Cavaliers continue to throw back more easily to these ancestors.

I bought a fascinating CD at the Cavalier Club show this year, containing Cavalier pages from the Dog World and Our Dogs annuals for 1936 to 1970. Featured kennels are Eyeworth, Hillbarn, Millstone, Otterholt, Pargeter, Sunninghill and Ttiweh, and each photo is linked to an index of 3-generation pedigrees. I think it is still available from the Bookshop page of the Cavalier Club website (www.thecavalierclub.co.uk)

Kate, Oliver (definitely shorter nosed but flat-headed ruby!) and Aled

PS CD is called 'Cavalier King Charles Spaniels of the Past, A Photographic Record'
 
Last edited:
Back
Top