talking to Cavalier owners

EddyAnne said:

Sandy, where I am many have discussed Hereditary Diseases for many years and we have come to the point where State Government Codes of Practice is stepping in with things like breeders should provide Health Certificates when they sell or give away a puppy or kitten, and I have even seen the word MUST used by another State Government where they have Legislation and Codes of Practice regarding Hereditary Diseases for dogs and cats. This is new and it is happening now, and as I previously mentioned, I think that a breeder's defence in case a court case eventuated is to have the appropriate specialist health testing certificates and to have bred according to specialist recommended breeding protocols.
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We can no sooner guarantee the health of a dog or cat than we can that of a human baby.
I DO HAVE THE HEALTH CERTIFICATES-- the same ones you preach about. It didn't do this LITTER of pups ANY good. The dogs I have with SM will stay HERE forever because I AM the reason they were born.
I wouldn't bet on 'government' being able to help this issue. Heck, I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues, let alone possible FUTURE health issues of dogs.

WoodHaven said:

Heck, I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues, let alone possible FUTURE health issues of dogs.

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:xctly: Very sad, but I totally agree.

Talking to Cavalier Owners.

I have mentioned this before,but here goes again.

The Cavalier Heart Problem has been known about here in Britain since the 1940's.

There were Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble being used at Stud in the 1950's.

I wondered because of this happening then ,and the continual use of Cavaliers with Heart Trouble being Bred from over the years, would this also increase the number of Cavaliers who to-day could be Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes.

I contacted a Researcher at LUPA ,the Team who are Researching for the MVD Gene/Genes in Cavaliers explaining about what had happened in Britain in the early days,
and she agreed that ,yes it was likely there would now be many Cavalier Carriers around with MVD Gene/ Genes.

I would think that about the only hope the Cavalier Breed has for the Future is for the Finding of those Genes.

But at the moment for Cavalier Breeders not to Breed from a Cavalier with a Heart Condition.

It was mentioned about the precautions being taken and the Cavaliers still having a Heart
Problem ,but would not the reason be that those Cavaliers Parents had been Carriers of the MVD Gene.

I can't comment on the SM Problem in our Breed ,I don't know if there was SM in the early days of our Breed, but do know that the Heart Trouble certainly was, and the Cavaliers sure are paying the price to-day. .as we the Broken Hearted Cavalier Owners who have lost our Beloved Cavaliers are such early ages are.

Finally I had also contacted Professor J Bell ,Geneticist, Tufts University America,also explaining all this to him, his reply was that to give the Cavalier Breed a chance at the moment ,Don't Breed from a Cavalier till 2.6 years.

What a pity 8 of the Top Cavalier Stud Dogs in 2008 had been Bred from before reaching 2.6 years.

WoodHaven said:

We can no sooner guarantee the health of a dog or cat than we can that of a human baby.
I DO HAVE THE HEALTH CERTIFICATES-- the same ones you preach about. It didn't do this LITTER of pups ANY good. The dogs I have with SM will stay HERE forever because I AM the reason they were born.
I wouldn't bet on 'government' being able to help this issue. Heck, I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues, let alone possible FUTURE health issues of dogs.

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Sandy you used the word guarantee I did not. With MVD, SM/CM, Hip Dysplasia plus a number of other Hereditary Diseases where there is NO DNA Testing available then all that breeders can do is the best that they can, which includes using specialist health testing and specialist recommended breeding protocols.

You mentioned "human baby".
Sandy, in human families where SM/CM has been found I think that people are MRI testing and listening to Specialists for I read this 2006 article on a human SM/CM website.
"One of the most common, and pressing, questions Chiari patients have is whether the condition is genetic. Adults are often diagnosed in their late 20's or early 30's when they are planning and starting families, and are naturally concerned about passing it on to their children. When children are diagnosed with Chiari, parents often wonder if they will be able to have families of their own when they grow up without having to worry about passing on Chiari."
If you want to read more here is the link.
http://www.conquerchiari.org/subs only/volume 4/issue 4(10)/chiari gene 4(10).asp

You mentioned "I DO HAVE THE HEALTH CERTIFICATES".
Sandy I did read that on the previous page and back there I responded.

You mentioned "I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues."
Sandy I have noticed that too and I also noticed that some do agree. The same tends to happen regarding dogs and MVD, SM/CM, Hip Dysplasia plus a number of other Hereditary Diseases.

You mentioned "I wouldn't bet on 'government' being able to help this issue."
Sandy I think that in time we will see. The Government Legislation and Codes of Practice where I am affects about 60 Breeds with MUST health test breeding dogs for hereditary diseases and that includes following approved breeding programs. For a starter I think that this will be of help regarding Puppy Farms where they also MUST comply with this new Legislation and Codes of Practice.
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EddyAnne said:

Sandy you used the word guarantee I did not. With MVD, SM/CM, Hip Dysplasia plus a number of other Hereditary Diseases where there is NO DNA Testing available then all that breeders can do is the best that they can, which includes using specialist health testing and specialist recommended breeding protocols.

You mentioned "human baby".
Sandy, in human families where SM/CM has been found I think that people are MRI testing and listening to Specialists for I read this 2006 article on a human SM/CM website.
"One of the most common, and pressing, questions Chiari patients have is whether the condition is genetic. Adults are often diagnosed in their late 20's or early 30's when they are planning and starting families, and are naturally concerned about passing it on to their children. When children are diagnosed with Chiari, parents often wonder if they will be able to have families of their own when they grow up without having to worry about passing on Chiari."
If you want to read more here is the link.
http://www.conquerchiari.org/subs%20only/volume%204/issue%204(10)/chiari%20gene%204(10).asp

You mentioned "I DO HAVE THE HEALTH CERTIFICATES".
Sandy I did read that on the previous page and back there I responded.

You mentioned "I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues."
Sandy I have noticed that too and I also noticed that some do agree. The same tends to happen regarding dogs and MVD, SM/CM, Hip Dysplasia plus a number of other Hereditary Diseases.

You mentioned "I wouldn't bet on 'government' being able to help this issue."
Sandy I think that in time we will see. The Government Legislation and Codes of Practice where I am affects about 60 Breeds with MUST health test breeding dogs for hereditary diseases and that includes following approved breeding programs. For a starter I think that this will be of help regarding Puppy Farms where they also MUST comply with this new Legislation and Codes of Practice.
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Just because some specialist 'agree' doesn't make them right either. "They" used to agree that the earth was flat. "They used to agree that the earth was the center of the universe. Amazing how dissenters were often crucified.
I don't believe we should all follow ONE protocol. IF the ''specialists" are WRONG-- are you going to take responsibility for the fall out????

We have a 'famous' family here in the states that made most of their $$$$ from selling black market booze during prohibition. Making a law and being able to enforce it -- two totally different things in real life.

Talking to Cavalier Owners.

Eddy, I don't know about you ,but I sure can't make sense of Sandy's argument.

I am with you on the points you are trying to get across to her.

Here is another one for you and others on the List about the SM Problem.

Is known if more Cavaliers with the Pretty Look that so many have to-day are suffering from SM.?

Or could the Cavaliers with the type of Head that they had 20 or so years ago not got so much SM.

Would it be possible to get a Number of Cavaliers MRI scanned with this Pretty Look, and a Number of the Older Type of Head Scanned, and see what the Result is. ?

Bet said:

Eddy, I don't know about you ,but I sure can't make sense of Sandy's argument.

I am with you on the points you are trying to get across to her.

Here is another one for you and others on the List about the SM Problem.

Is known if more Cavaliers with the Pretty Look that so many have to-day are suffering from SM.?

Or could the Cavaliers with the type of Head that they had 20 or so years ago not got so much SM.

Would it be possible to get a Number of Cavaliers MRI scanned with this Pretty Look, and a Number of the Older Type of Head Scanned, and see what the Result is. ?

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You don't understand that experts CAN be wrong (and if you study history, you will see this).
That leading or FORCING everyone down a road that may end up causing more issues would be detrimental.

Bet, I don't know if they bred cavalier in the 1950's that had heart murmurs. That was way before I was born-- but I do know that the war devastated the number dogs available.

I really dont mean to seem controversial I but ..... I work with children with complex needs and life limiting conditions - very often these little ones slip away - I am visiting a 3 year old at the moment with Chiari - he has just had a gastro button fitted as he has stopped eating ......... heartbreaking.

My nearly 3 year old cavi is pretty disabled with SM, luxating pataella and now has a heart murmer. With children - sometimes the risk of conditions just cant be pre-empted. However with cavaliers - to me the risk of an unhealthy dog are just TOO great. I would never again have a cavi pup. In the small village where I live - over half the cavis have severe health problems. None of the dogs are related. My vet recently 'joked' with me ' I used to recommend Cavaliers as a family pet because of their super temperment - now I recommend them as they keep my daughter in private education!' To me - this just said it all!

I am in no way comparing a child with disabilities to an SM cavi - just that we KNOW the risks in advance - and as this thread started with a discussion about discussing SM with perhaps unaware owners I think 'hell yes!' - seeing suffering in any form is debilitating in itself - being a cavi owner is awesome - I love the breed - I truly do - but I think owners should be very aware that the journey may be painful - for the family and the dog.

WoodHaven said:

Making a law and being able to enforce it -- two totally different things in real life.

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Where I am by Government Law the breeder must microchip every pup before selling or giving away the pups, a form is filled in by the breeder plus also by the veterinarian or authorised implanter and then that form is sent to Central Animal Records. In my area I have heard of Inspectors going to Puppy Farms to check things like Dog Licenses and Permits plus they also scanned dogs to see if they have a Microchip.

When someone purchases a pup, another form is filled in by the breeder, that form is then handed to the puppy purchaser where the purchaser must fill in the rest of that form then send it to Central Animal Records this to transfer ownership. If the puppy purchaser does not fill in the form and send it in, Central Animal Records will still have the breeder listed as the owner. In the case of a lost form the puppy purchaser would have to contact the breeder and request them to send another form. We also have Mandatory Dog License Laws, and to obtain a New Dog License there must be Microchip details and if NOT then the New Dog Licenses will NOT be processed and questions will be asked to the puppy owner as to where they obtained their puppy from.

I will still wait and see what happens over my way this even in regards to enforcement.
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Ruth M said:

I really dont mean to seem controversial I but ..... I work with children with complex needs and life limiting conditions - very often these little ones slip away - I am visiting a 3 year old at the moment with Chiari - he has just had a gastro button fitted as he has stopped eating ......... heartbreaking.

My nearly 3 year old cavi is pretty disabled with SM, luxating pataella and now has a heart murmer. With children - sometimes the risk of conditions just cant be pre-empted. However with cavaliers - to me the risk of an unhealthy dog are just TOO great. I would never again have a cavi pup. In the small village where I live - over half the cavis have severe health problems. None of the dogs are related. My vet recently 'joked' with me ' I used to recommend Cavaliers as a family pet because of their super temperment - now I recommend them as they keep my daughter in private education!' To me - this just said it all!

I am in no way comparing a child with disabilities to an SM cavi - just that we KNOW the risks in advance - and as this thread started with a discussion about discussing SM with perhaps unaware owners I think 'hell yes!' - seeing suffering in any form is debilitating in itself - being a cavi owner is awesome - I love the breed - I truly do - but I think owners should be very aware that the journey may be painful - for the family and the dog.

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Ruth, I am so sorry for all you and your dog have been through. I hope the breeder of your dog is helping you out.
I hope to never be without a cavalier. I looked through my dogs vet record recently-- many have never been to the vet for anything other than 'routine maintenance'.

Bet said:

Eddy, I don't know about you ,but I sure can't make sense of Sandy's argument.

I am with you on the points you are trying to get across to her.

Here is another one for you and others on the List about the SM Problem.

Is known if more Cavaliers with the Pretty Look that so many have to-day are suffering from SM.?

Or could the Cavaliers with the type of Head that they had 20 or so years ago not got so much SM.

Would it be possible to get a Number of Cavaliers MRI scanned with this Pretty Look, and a Number of the Older Type of Head Scanned, and see what the Result is. ?

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Bet I do not know, maybe later after the genes are found for SM/CM then researchers may start finding some answers. Say like maybe DNA testing other breeds including humans, and in a previous post of this thread where I mentioned humans note in that article Cavaliers are mentioned plus Chromosomes and "Fibrillin-1", also the British Museum has some old skulls plus other things from dogs where maybe Researchers one day might be able to extract some DNA for SM/CM testing.

Here is one for you Bet and maybe something to think about which is on a DNA Laboratory website and the following is at this address.
http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test_prcd_pra.html

"It’s been proven that all breeds being tested for prcd-PRA have the same disease caused by the same mutated gene. This is so, even though the disease might develop at different ages or with differing severity from one breed to another."
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"It’s been proven that all breeds being tested for prcd-PRA have the same disease caused by the same mutated gene. This is so, even though the disease might develop at different ages or with differing severity from one breed to another."
.[/QUOTE]

EddyAnne,

I suspect that the above quote is accurate with reference to our breed and MVD/SM, etc.
The genome scan could discover that all CKCS carry the undesirable gene/genes for both diseases and maybe some of the others also, viz, dry-eye, Episodic Falling, Pancreatic disease to name but a few.

If that is the case, then we have a great deal of work still to do as regards working out the 'why' part.

Why do these diseases develop at different rates and to a different degree of severity within the same family of dogs.

If this is what they find - and I strongly suspect that they will - then all the mandatory testing in the world will not help us.

There is so much more we need to know. The unpredictable results from breeders who have been following all the protocols are proof of this.

It is most certainly, complicated.

Elspeth

Talking to Cavalier Owners

Surely the answer to Cavaliers having SM or MVD ,they've they have those Genes.

Spoke to Dr B Cattanach ,Geneticist, this morning ,explaining about how Cavaliers since the 1940's have had Heart Trouble, and that Cavaliers with Heart Trouble were being used at Stud in those early days , could there now be many Cavaliers around now who were Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes.

He said that the Priority is to find what kind of Gene is causing the MVD Problem in our Breed.But was a bit depressing about what could be being now.

Is it Dominant ,Recessive.?

What he did say about the Cavaliers' SM Problem, I had sent him a couple of years ago about 50 Pedigrees of Cavaliers with SM , and there was next to no In-Breeding in them,that the SM Problem could stem from the alteration in Cavaliers' Heads around 20 years or so ago, that if Cavalier Breeders could change the Type of Head then ,and it was this type that was causing the SM Problem, then it should be quite easy to change back again to the Older Shape of Cavalier Head, but it rests with the willingness of Cavalier Breeders to do this.

Elspeth yes it is complicated and there is so much more we need to know about many hereditary diseases. Yes it has even been complicated for many years well before DNA testing became available for PRA, yet breeders used whatever the best current means of testing was available back then which was to use Eye Specialist Testing, and which is still used today even for Cavalier eye testings which includes testing for a number of things. And which brings us back to a point such as if there is NO DNA Testing available then all that breeders can do is the best that they can, which includes using specialist health testing and specialist recommendations or breeding protocols.
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Talking to Cavalier Owners.

Ruth M ,

I was so sorry to read your Post, and about the Cavaliers in your Village having Health Problems, that is why I do feel that there is no excuse for Cavalier Breeders not doing Health Tests on their Breeding Stock.

OK , you can't find out the Carriers , but surely it's not too much to ask the majority of Cavalier Breeders to abide by the CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guidelines which have been Recommended by the Experts and Researchers.

Don't Breed from a Cavalier before 2.6 years, and the Grand-Parents have a Clear Heart Certificate at 5.

As I said in my earlier Post, that 8 of the Top Cavalier Stud Dogs in 2008 had been Bred from before they were 2.6 years of age.

No wonder Simon Swift said at the recent UK CKCS CLUB AGM that 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 ,and this is NO BETTER than it was 18 years ago.

So I would think that remedy to improve the MVD Problem in Cavaliers is in the Hands of the Cavalier Breeders.

Bet said:

Ruth M ,

I was so sorry to read your Post, and about the Cavaliers in your Village having Health Problems, that is why I do feel that there is no excuse for Cavalier Breeders not doing Health Tests on their Breeding Stock.

OK , you can't find out the Carriers , but surely it's not too much to ask the majority of Cavalier Breeders to abide by the CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guidelines which have been Recommended by the Experts and Researchers.

Don't Breed from a Cavalier before 2.6 years, and the Grand-Parents have a Clear Heart Certificate at 5.

As I said in my earlier Post, that 8 of the Top Cavalier Stud Dogs in 2008 had been Bred from before they were 2.6 years of age.

No wonder Simon Swift said at the recent UK CKCS CLUB AGM that 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 ,and this is NO BETTER than it was 18 years ago.

So I would think that remedy to improve the MVD Problem in Cavaliers is in the Hands of the Cavalier Breeders.

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What is 2.6 years?? Do you mean 2 and a half years or ??
2.6 years is like 2 years 7 months and 1 week??

Bet said:

Ruth M ,

OK , you can't find out the Carriers , but surely it's not too much to ask the majority of Cavalier Breeders to abide by the CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guidelines which have been Recommended by the Experts and Researchers.

Don't Breed from a Cavalier before 2.6 years, and the Grand-Parents have a Clear Heart Certificate at 5.

As I said in my earlier Post, that 8 of the Top Cavalier Stud Dogs in 2008 had been Bred from before they were 2.6 years of age.

No wonder Simon Swift said at the recent UK CKCS CLUB AGM that 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 ,and this is NO BETTER than it was 18 years ago.

So I would think that remedy to improve the MVD Problem in Cavaliers is in the Hands of the Cavalier Breeders.

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Bet

The Top stud dogs only produce a infinitesimally small fraction of the puppies born in the UK. In fact they are usually only used by people who show their dogs. I know you don't seem to believe this, but most of the show people test their dogs, especially for hearts, as there is free heart testing at most of the shows.

The problem with MVD & SM is that although people can test, and use only clear stock; until more is known, there will still be pups produced with these defects, from parents/grandparents that are clear. There are no stats that show whether, or by how much, the proportion of affected pups will reduce by carrying out this regime. And I guess there will be no way of finding out or monitoring it.

As for using a stud dog before 2.5 yrs old, OK it happens, but I bet that the top stud dogs that were used before 2.5yrs old are still clear of heart problems because they are still being used! And whatever you might think, health conscious exhibitors are not going to use a dog with a murmer, unless he is an older dog - ie 7yrs+ who has a v.slight murmer that developed later in life.They want to breed healthy dogs.

It's the breeders that churn out puppies by the bucket load, who don't test that are more likely to produce pups with health problems.

Sue wrote: The problem with MVD & SM is that although people can test, and use only clear stock; until more is known, there will still be pups produced with these defects, from parents/grandparents that are clear. There are no stats that show whether, or by how much, the proportion of affected pups will reduce by carrying out this regime. And I guess there will be no way of finding out or monitoring it.
----------------------------------------------------

Guess you haven't read this study, huh?

Relationship Between Parental Cardiac Status in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and Prevalence and Severity of Chronic Valvular Disease in Offspring. Swenson L, Häggström J, Kvart C, Juneja RK. JAVMA 1996, Jan; 208(12): 2009-2012.

The goal is not to eliminate MVD from the breed (an impossible task) but to move the age of onset higher and to increase the lifespan of the breed to that age common in similar sized dogs. Thus the protocol has to do with the age of onset of heart murmur of parents and grandparents rather than whether a Cavalier is clear or not clear of a murmur at the time of mating - two different things.

Pat

The Top stud dogs only produce a infinitesimally small fraction of the puppies born in the UK.

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But their genes influence the breed in a massive way for generations and generations, ALL cavaliers as their offspring will eventually be the dogs bred by BYBs and puppy farms and the next door neighbour not least as so few breeders in the UK sell dogs on limited registrations and so few are ever on spay/neuter contracts so people just breed nonregistered litters. That is why there's a serious concern about the limited genetic diversity now in the ENTIRE breed -- those stud dogs are used so excessively that you end up with dogs -- show or pet, from show breeders or puppy farms or BYBs -- extremely closely related. The problem is that most people just look at 3-5 generation pedigrees. Go further back and you see dogs are bred to direct relatives or peripheral relatives all over the place.

The problem with MVD & SM is that although people can test, and use only clear stock; until more is known, there will still be pups produced with these defects, from parents/grandparents that are clear. There are no stats that show whether, or by how much, the proportion of affected pups will reduce by carrying out this regime. And I guess there will be no way of finding out or monitoring it.

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This simply is not true -- Pat has noted one of the studies on MVD and twice now there have been presentations on the results coming back from the only monitored breeding programme for SM which is CLEARLY showing clear dogs produce far more clear or good grade offspring whereas D and F dogs produce none to date.

As well, this statement is irrelevant: producing clear offspring when the twin problems are already so dire is not, and sadly probably never can be the ultimate goal -- as Pat says, and any cardiologist or neurologist will confirm (and as breed clubs themselves state): the goal is to limit severity and age of onset, both very achievable according to specialists... IF breeders would test. MOST Uk breeders do NOT adequately heart test -- they still vet test rather than go to cardiologists. The UK club's own cardiologist, Simon Swift, has made a formal statement that hearts have NOT improved at all in the CLUB bred cavaliers over more than a decade of a supposed heart programme being in place because breeders do NOT test enough and mostly vet test, and generally don't test older dogs to see age of MVD onset (or don't make those test results public when they do). The Healthy Hearts list of older dogs with 'clear' hearts had to be changed recently -- FINALLY! -- to remove all the many, many dogs placed on the list that were only vet tested and require cardio certs in future. Why they were ever allowed in the first place is a mystery when for well over a decade it has been widely recognised in many clubs that vets offer little more than a 50/50 chance of accurately diagnosing a low grade murmur -- so you might as well flip a coin as use a vet auscultation as the basis of breeding.

The UK club decided nonetheless NOT to make cardiologist testing mandatory and only gently encourages it (in contrast to the US clubs which at least strongly push cardiologist testing and view vet certs on hearts as virtually useless, especially as a breeding tool).

Yorkysue said:

Bet

The Top stud dogs only produce a infinitesimally small fraction of the puppies born in the UK. In fact they are usually only used by people who show their dogs. I know you don't seem to believe this, but most of the show people test their dogs, especially for hearts, as there is free heart testing at most of the shows.

The problem with MVD & SM is that although people can test, and use only clear stock; until more is known, there will still be pups produced with these defects, from parents/grandparents that are clear. There are no stats that show whether, or by how much, the proportion of affected pups will reduce by carrying out this regime. And I guess there will be no way of finding out or monitoring it.

As for using a stud dog before 2.5 yrs old, OK it happens, but I bet that the top stud dogs that were used before 2.5yrs old are still clear of heart problems because they are still being used! And whatever you might think, health conscious exhibitors are not going to use a dog with a murmer, unless he is an older dog - ie 7yrs+ who has a v.slight murmer that developed later in life.They want to breed healthy dogs.

It's the breeders that churn out puppies by the bucket load, who don't test that are more likely to produce pups with health problems.

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I owned a UK top stud dog. In the 1990s, for five years, he and Ch Lymrey Scandal of Ricksbury vied for the Cavalier Club Best Stud Dog trophy.

Monty (Ch Mareve Indiana ) had 8 UK champions and is one of the top producing dogs since cavaliers were recognised. He had champions in countries all over the world.
You will find him in most pedigrees worldwide because his descendants also became top stud dogs.
You will also find him behind some puppy farm dogs because some of his descendants also ended up in the hands of puppy farmers.
Top stud dogs have an enormous influence on the health of a breed.Unfortunately, although I did not know it, Monty had syringomyelia and he passed it to many of his offspring.

Relatively few top show breeders heart tested before the PDE film, and they certainly did not use the heart protocol which should drive up the age of MVD onset in the breed, if it was used properly.

They are testing more now, but if you look at the litters being produced now you will see that underage cavaliers are still routinely being used for breeding, even by club health representatives, and you are wrong about top stud dogs still being heart clear because they are used early; They are showing up with MVD at 4 years old.
A dog used at stud at a year old will produce puppies that are being used when he is only two years old. How far are those faulty genes spread through his children, grandchildren, even great grandchildren, by the time he is four?

There are some statistics that show the proportion of affected offspring will be reduced by following the specialist's guidelines, but there is not enough evidence, simply because breeders will not provide the data by actually putting the breed first. Only by breeders using the protocols will 'more be known'

Show breeders do want to produce healthy dogs, and they would do so if they could do it without compromising on the desirable show qualities they want in their puppies. They may say they are health conscious but they will still put 'type' first.

Yorkysue said:

It's the breeders that churn out puppies by the bucket load, who don't test that are more likely to produce pups with health problems.

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I doubt whether that is always true, I suspect SM is worse in cavaliers bred by show breeders that closely line breed.

The fact is that cavalier club members should stop using puppy farmers and BYBs as an excuse. Once they are scrupulous about their own breeding, then they can afford to criticise others.