talking to Cavalier owners

[WoodHaven]

Sandy, where I am many have discussed Hereditary Diseases for many years and we have come to the point where State Government Codes of Practice is stepping in with things like breeders should provide Health Certificates when they sell or give away a puppy or kitten, and I have even seen the word MUST used by another State Government where they have Legislation and Codes of Practice regarding Hereditary Diseases for dogs and cats. This is new and it is happening now, and as I previously mentioned, I think that a breeder's defence in case a court case eventuated is to have the appropriate specialist health testing certificates and to have bred according to specialist recommended breeding protocols.
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We can no sooner guarantee the health of a dog or cat than we can that of a human baby.
I DO HAVE THE HEALTH CERTIFICATES-- the same ones you preach about. It didn't do this LITTER of pups ANY good. The dogs I have with SM will stay HERE forever because I AM the reason they were born.
I wouldn't bet on 'government' being able to help this issue. Heck, I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues, let alone possible FUTURE health issues of dogs.

[Mom of Jato]

Heck, I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues, let alone possible FUTURE health issues of dogs.

Very sad, but I totally agree.

[Bet]

I have mentioned this before,but here goes again.

The Cavalier Heart Problem has been known about here in Britain since the 1940's.

There were Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble being used at Stud in the 1950's.

I wondered because of this happening then ,and the continual use of Cavaliers with Heart Trouble being Bred from over the years, would this also increase the number of Cavaliers who to-day could be Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes.

I contacted a Researcher at LUPA ,the Team who are Researching for the MVD Gene/Genes in Cavaliers explaining about what had happened in Britain in the early days,
and she agreed that ,yes it was likely there would now be many Cavalier Carriers around with MVD Gene/ Genes.

I would think that about the only hope the Cavalier Breed has for the Future is for the Finding of those Genes.

But at the moment for Cavalier Breeders not to Breed from a Cavalier with a Heart Condition.

It was mentioned about the precautions being taken and the Cavaliers still having a Heart
Problem ,but would not the reason be that those Cavaliers Parents had been Carriers of the MVD Gene.

I can't comment on the SM Problem in our Breed ,I don't know if there was SM in the early days of our Breed, but do know that the Heart Trouble certainly was, and the Cavaliers sure are paying the price to-day. .as we the Broken Hearted Cavalier Owners who have lost our Beloved Cavaliers are such early ages are.

Finally I had also contacted Professor J Bell ,Geneticist, Tufts University America,also explaining all this to him, his reply was that to give the Cavalier Breed a chance at the moment ,Don't Breed from a Cavalier till 2.6 years.

What a pity 8 of the Top Cavalier Stud Dogs in 2008 had been Bred from before reaching 2.6 years.

[EddyAnne]

We can no sooner guarantee the health of a dog or cat than we can that of a human baby.
I DO HAVE THE HEALTH CERTIFICATES-- the same ones you preach about. It didn't do this LITTER of pups ANY good. The dogs I have with SM will stay HERE forever because I AM the reason they were born.
I wouldn't bet on 'government' being able to help this issue. Heck, I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues, let alone possible FUTURE health issues of dogs.

Sandy you used the word guarantee I did not. With MVD, SM/CM, Hip Dysplasia plus a number of other Hereditary Diseases where there is NO DNA Testing available then all that breeders can do is the best that they can, which includes using specialist health testing and specialist recommended breeding protocols.

You mentioned "human baby".
Sandy, in human families where SM/CM has been found I think that people are MRI testing and listening to Specialists for I read this 2006 article on a human SM/CM website.
"One of the most common, and pressing, questions Chiari patients have is whether the condition is genetic. Adults are often diagnosed in their late 20's or early 30's when they are planning and starting families, and are naturally concerned about passing it on to their children. When children are diagnosed with Chiari, parents often wonder if they will be able to have families of their own when they grow up without having to worry about passing on Chiari."
If you want to read more here is the link.
http://www.conquerchiari.org/subs%20...ne%204(10).asp

You mentioned "I DO HAVE THE HEALTH CERTIFICATES".
Sandy I did read that on the previous page and back there I responded.

You mentioned "I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues."
Sandy I have noticed that too and I also noticed that some do agree. The same tends to happen regarding dogs and MVD, SM/CM, Hip Dysplasia plus a number of other Hereditary Diseases.

You mentioned "I wouldn't bet on 'government' being able to help this issue."
Sandy I think that in time we will see. The Government Legislation and Codes of Practice where I am affects about 60 Breeds with MUST health test breeding dogs for hereditary diseases and that includes following approved breeding programs. For a starter I think that this will be of help regarding Puppy Farms where they also MUST comply with this new Legislation and Codes of Practice.
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[WoodHaven]

Sandy you used the word guarantee I did not. With MVD, SM/CM, Hip Dysplasia plus a number of other Hereditary Diseases where there is NO DNA Testing available then all that breeders can do is the best that they can, which includes using specialist health testing and specialist recommended breeding protocols.

You mentioned "human baby".
Sandy, in human families where SM/CM has been found I think that people are MRI testing and listening to Specialists for I read this 2006 article on a human SM/CM website.
"One of the most common, and pressing, questions Chiari patients have is whether the condition is genetic. Adults are often diagnosed in their late 20's or early 30's when they are planning and starting families, and are naturally concerned about passing it on to their children. When children are diagnosed with Chiari, parents often wonder if they will be able to have families of their own when they grow up without having to worry about passing on Chiari."
If you want to read more here is the link.
http://www.conquerchiari.org/subs%20only/volume%204/issue%204(10)/chiari%20gene%204(10).asp

You mentioned "I DO HAVE THE HEALTH CERTIFICATES".
Sandy I did read that on the previous page and back there I responded.

You mentioned "I can't even get two 'specialists' to agree on MY OWN HEALTH issues."
Sandy I have noticed that too and I also noticed that some do agree. The same tends to happen regarding dogs and MVD, SM/CM, Hip Dysplasia plus a number of other Hereditary Diseases.

You mentioned "I wouldn't bet on 'government' being able to help this issue."
Sandy I think that in time we will see. The Government Legislation and Codes of Practice where I am affects about 60 Breeds with MUST health test breeding dogs for hereditary diseases and that includes following approved breeding programs. For a starter I think that this will be of help regarding Puppy Farms where they also MUST comply with this new Legislation and Codes of Practice.
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Just because some specialist 'agree' doesn't make them right either. "They" used to agree that the earth was flat. "They used to agree that the earth was the center of the universe. Amazing how dissenters were often crucified.
I don't believe we should all follow ONE protocol. IF the ''specialists" are WRONG-- are you going to take responsibility for the fall out????

We have a 'famous' family here in the states that made most of their $$$$ from selling black market booze during prohibition. Making a law and being able to enforce it -- two totally different things in real life.

[Bet]

Eddy, I don't know about you ,but I sure can't make sense of Sandy's argument.

I am with you on the points you are trying to get across to her.

Here is another one for you and others on the List about the SM Problem.

Is known if more Cavaliers with the Pretty Look that so many have to-day are suffering from SM.?

Or could the Cavaliers with the type of Head that they had 20 or so years ago not got so much SM.

Would it be possible to get a Number of Cavaliers MRI scanned with this Pretty Look, and a Number of the Older Type of Head Scanned, and see what the Result is. ?

[WoodHaven]

Eddy, I don't know about you ,but I sure can't make sense of Sandy's argument.

I am with you on the points you are trying to get across to her.

Here is another one for you and others on the List about the SM Problem.

Is known if more Cavaliers with the Pretty Look that so many have to-day are suffering from SM.?

Or could the Cavaliers with the type of Head that they had 20 or so years ago not got so much SM.

Would it be possible to get a Number of Cavaliers MRI scanned with this Pretty Look, and a Number of the Older Type of Head Scanned, and see what the Result is. ?

You don't understand that experts CAN be wrong (and if you study history, you will see this).
That leading or FORCING everyone down a road that may end up causing more issues would be detrimental.

Bet, I don't know if they bred cavalier in the 1950's that had heart murmurs. That was way before I was born-- but I do know that the war devastated the number dogs available.

[Ruth M]

I really dont mean to seem controversial I but ..... I work with children with complex needs and life limiting conditions - very often these little ones slip away - I am visiting a 3 year old at the moment with Chiari - he has just had a gastro button fitted as he has stopped eating ......... heartbreaking.

My nearly 3 year old cavi is pretty disabled with SM, luxating pataella and now has a heart murmer. With children - sometimes the risk of conditions just cant be pre-empted. However with cavaliers - to me the risk of an unhealthy dog are just TOO great. I would never again have a cavi pup. In the small village where I live - over half the cavis have severe health problems. None of the dogs are related. My vet recently 'joked' with me ' I used to recommend Cavaliers as a family pet because of their super temperment - now I recommend them as they keep my daughter in private education!' To me - this just said it all!

I am in no way comparing a child with disabilities to an SM cavi - just that we KNOW the risks in advance - and as this thread started with a discussion about discussing SM with perhaps unaware owners I think 'hell yes!' - seeing suffering in any form is debilitating in itself - being a cavi owner is awesome - I love the breed - I truly do - but I think owners should be very aware that the journey may be painful - for the family and the dog.

[EddyAnne]

Making a law and being able to enforce it -- two totally different things in real life.

Where I am by Government Law the breeder must microchip every pup before selling or giving away the pups, a form is filled in by the breeder plus also by the veterinarian or authorised implanter and then that form is sent to Central Animal Records. In my area I have heard of Inspectors going to Puppy Farms to check things like Dog Licenses and Permits plus they also scanned dogs to see if they have a Microchip.

When someone purchases a pup, another form is filled in by the breeder, that form is then handed to the puppy purchaser where the purchaser must fill in the rest of that form then send it to Central Animal Records this to transfer ownership. If the puppy purchaser does not fill in the form and send it in, Central Animal Records will still have the breeder listed as the owner. In the case of a lost form the puppy purchaser would have to contact the breeder and request them to send another form. We also have Mandatory Dog License Laws, and to obtain a New Dog License there must be Microchip details and if NOT then the New Dog Licenses will NOT be processed and questions will be asked to the puppy owner as to where they obtained their puppy from.

I will still wait and see what happens over my way this even in regards to enforcement.
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[WoodHaven]

I really dont mean to seem controversial I but ..... I work with children with complex needs and life limiting conditions - very often these little ones slip away - I am visiting a 3 year old at the moment with Chiari - he has just had a gastro button fitted as he has stopped eating ......... heartbreaking.

My nearly 3 year old cavi is pretty disabled with SM, luxating pataella and now has a heart murmer. With children - sometimes the risk of conditions just cant be pre-empted. However with cavaliers - to me the risk of an unhealthy dog are just TOO great. I would never again have a cavi pup. In the small village where I live - over half the cavis have severe health problems. None of the dogs are related. My vet recently 'joked' with me ' I used to recommend Cavaliers as a family pet because of their super temperment - now I recommend them as they keep my daughter in private education!' To me - this just said it all!

I am in no way comparing a child with disabilities to an SM cavi - just that we KNOW the risks in advance - and as this thread started with a discussion about discussing SM with perhaps unaware owners I think 'hell yes!' - seeing suffering in any form is debilitating in itself - being a cavi owner is awesome - I love the breed - I truly do - but I think owners should be very aware that the journey may be painful - for the family and the dog.

Ruth, I am so sorry for all you and your dog have been through. I hope the breeder of your dog is helping you out.
I hope to never be without a cavalier. I looked through my dogs vet record recently-- many have never been to the vet for anything other than 'routine maintenance'.