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talking to Cavalier owners

Talking to Cavalier Owners.

What is the difference between Cavalier BYB's, Cavalier Puppy Farmers,who don't do Health Tests for SM and MVD on their Cavalier Breeding Stock, and CKCS CLUB MEMBERS who also don't do those Tests .

Is it 6 of One and half -a -dozen of the Other.How can those Cavalier Club Breeders who don't abide by the UK CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guidelines ,be any different .

TO Sandy 2.6 years is two years and 6 months, it was easier for me doing 2.6 years, thought every- body would understand what I meant.

Thank -you Karlin and Margaret for your Posts,I would think that many of the Cavalier Breeders' Cavaliers,will be going to Cavalier Pet Owners Homes .as do a good number of their Cavaliers when their Showing and Breeding days are over.
 
What is the difference between Cavalier BYB's, Cavalier Puppy Farmers,who don't do Health Tests for SM and MVD on their Cavalier Breeding Stock, and CKCS CLUB MEMBERS who also don't do those Tests .

Is it 6 of One and half -a -dozen of the Other.How can those Cavalier Club Breeders who don't abide by the UK CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guidelines ,be any different .

TO Sandy 2.6 years is two years and 6 months, it was easier for me doing 2.6 years, thought every- body would understand what I meant.

Thank -you Karlin and Margaret for your Posts,I would think that many of the Cavalier Breeders' Cavaliers,will be going to Cavalier Pet Owners Homes .as do a good number of their Cavaliers when their Showing and Breeding days are over.

Bet

As far as the difference between Puppy Farmers/BYB's and Club members that don't test goes; I guess you are referring to this apect alone in your sweeping statement above; and I agree; all should test and I would hope that club members would make the effort to test if they cared about the breed. But I think there is a world of difference between the two as far as care of stock and rearing of puppies is concerned!!!!!!!!!

Picking up on the previous posts - Neither of the two major health problems in cavaliers are going to be easy to breed out as you say they have evolved from a small gene pool originally, ergo both these defects have probably been there all along.- without poeple knowing at first.

So it could be that the breeders that are testing will find their stock improving over time? But there will still not be noticable improvements to the health of cavaliers for years.

I still say that the BYB and PFs are the one who produce pups that are in v.ill health. This is obvious from posts about the rescue centres like Many Tears, who often have ex breeding bitches with heart problems! and pups that are very sick. And this won't change overnight. These are the people who churn out the pups, not the club members.
 
Karlin, you mentioned a study or breeding programme that has/is being carried out into the effects of breeding from SM free stock.

Could you point me in the direction of this study and where I can read it?

Thankyou
 
Talking to Cavalier Owners.

I think we all know about the way Puppy Farmers keep their Animals .It breaks your heart to read about it

That has nothing to do with my argument about some Cavalier Breeders not Health Testing their Breeding Stock ,being any different from Puppy Farmers and BYB not Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock and making remarks about those People.

What is the difference?
 
Sorry Bet.. I didn't know if you READ something that actually said that breeders should now wait 2.6 years or if 2.5 was still on the recommendations. You do tend to make your own up as you go.

IF you grievances are really about dogs 'suffering' vs. waiting until a dog is 2.5 years to breed for breeding recommendations-- there is a huge difference between puppymillers breeding EVERY season vs. breeding a known line early.

Ms. Carter-- Popular Sire Syndrome has been around since the dawn of time-- the diseases they populate are just different.
 
Ms. Carter-- Popular Sire Syndrome has been around since the dawn of time-- the diseases they populate are just different.

Most people on this list call me Margaret.

I'm afraid I do not quite understand the point of your remark?
I was using my own experience to answer Yorkysue's statement................

"The Top stud dogs only produce a infinitesimally small fraction of the puppies born in the UK. In fact they are usually only used by people who show their dogs"

I am quite willing to debate the popular sire syndrome and whether it is a desirable breeding practice considering the effect it can have in reducing gene pools and spreading inherited conditions, but we probably should start another thread?
 
Talking to Cavalier Breeders

Sandy, just curious, are you in an American CKCS Club ,that like our UK CKCS CLUB , if a Cavalier Breeder want's to have a Cavalier on the Club's Puppy Register needs to fill in the form giving information asto whether the Parents have a Current Heart and Eye Certificate.

I would think that should answer your question as to whether the Cavalier Breeder has a Cavalier Puppy for sale, whether the Sire and Dam has been Bred from before TWO AND a HALF YEARS.

Don't you support this Breeding Guideance from Researchers and Geneticists for combating those two serious Problems SM and MVD afflicting Cavaliers.?What do you suggest should be being done. ?

I do know that when I contacted Professor J .Bell ,Geneticist ,Tufts University, America, asking about whether there are now so many Cavalier Carriers of the MVD Problem around now,what is the answer , NOT MADE UP, his reply to me was ,the only chance the Cavalier Breed has ,is as Pat said, DON'T Breed from a Cavalier till Two and a Half years of age, the way forward is to try and up the age of MVD occurring.
 
Talking to Cavalier Owners.

Sorry about this Folks ,but I have really got to answer Sandy's Post ,where I've just noticed her claim about Breeding early from a Cavalier Line with no Heart Trouble, I've collected over 400 Pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble, still to find a Cavalier Line with no Heart Trouble in it.

Sandy, can you give the number of how many Lines that you know about that have had no Heart Trouble in them.

I am sure The Cardiologists Researching into the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed would be interested in your information.
 
Sandy, just curious, are you in an American CKCS Club ,that like our UK CKCS CLUB , if a Cavalier Breeder want's to have a Cavalier on the Club's Puppy Register needs to fill in the form giving information asto whether the Parents have a Current Heart and Eye Certificate.

I would think that should answer your question as to whether the Cavalier Breeder has a Cavalier Puppy for sale, whether the Sire and Dam has been Bred from before TWO AND a HALF YEARS.

Don't you support this Breeding Guideance from Researchers and Geneticists for combating those two serious Problems SM and MVD afflicting Cavaliers.?What do you suggest should be being done. ?

I do know that when I contacted Professor J .Bell ,Geneticist ,Tufts University, America, asking about whether there are now so many Cavalier Carriers of the MVD Problem around now,what is the answer , NOT MADE UP, his reply to me was ,the only chance the Cavalier Breed has ,is as Pat said, DON'T Breed from a Cavalier till Two and a Half years of age, the way forward is to try and up the age of MVD occurring.


I am a member of the CKCSC, USA-- No they don't require ANY proof of anything beyond my being a member of good standing and my dogs are properly registered with the club.

I am a member of the CKCSC-GC - a local cavalier club. No they don't require any proof of anything beyond my being a member in good standing.

I am not a member of the ACKCSC-- THE official cavalier breed club of the AKC. I don't believe that that club requires proof of any testing either.

I don't need to put ANYTHING on a puppy register to home puppies. I get calls, sometimes daily. MOST of the callers don't know about health testing and I am sometimes the first one to discuss them with them. Many callers don't care about health testing. They are looking for a cheap puppy. A cheap puppy here is about $1000-1500.00USD.

I have found flaws with the breeding protocol.
I have a friend that had a cavalier pass it's heart exam at 5.5 years-- the dog died of MVD before 6.5 years. According to the breeding protocol-- this is FINE.
I have another friend that had a dog get a murmur at 4-- neutered immediately and taken out of the breeding program. He died at 14 -- NOT of MVD. Acccording to the breeding protocol-- this dog shouldn't have been used.

A badly gene flawed dog can phenotypically look fine.
A wonderfully gened dog can look not so good.
 
Sorry about this Folks ,but I have really got to answer Sandy's Post ,where I've just noticed her claim about Breeding early from a Cavalier Line with no Heart Trouble, I've collected over 400 Pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble, still to find a Cavalier Line with no Heart Trouble in it.

Sandy, can you give the number of how many Lines that you know about that have had no Heart Trouble in them.

I am sure The Cardiologists Researching into the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed would be interested in your information.

Your sarcasm is noted! I am the queen of sarcasm, so I guess I can't complain.
NOT--- no heart problems---- IF a breeder is looking at the sire and dam. granddam and great dam -- all healthy and knows that 3 direct generations have done well-- they might be tempted to breed a dog earlier than 2.5 years.
SOME breeders have noted that waiting until a dog is 2 1/2 can make it more difficult. Some dogs are easy breeder/some very difficult breeder anyway- so who knows. I only have one boy that has been bred and he is CHIC'd with MRI.

My first cavalier has a 16 year old great grand dam and an almost 15 year old dam still alive and well. THIS is what I like to hear. THIS is what I am hoping for. Alive and well into their mid teens.
 
I had sent him a couple of years ago about 50 Pedigrees of Cavaliers with SM , and there was next to no In-Breeding in them,that the SM Problem could stem from the alteration in Cavaliers' Heads around 20 years or so ago, that if Cavalier Breeders could change the Type of Head then ,and it was this type that was causing the SM Problem, then it should be quite easy to change back again to the Older Shape of Cavalier Head, but it rests with the willingness of Cavalier Breeders to do this.

Bet

I'm intrigued by your statement above, re that a couple of years ago you sent off about 50 pedigrees of dogs with SM.
However, isn't it only recently that you have acknowledged that SM is a problem in the breed. Surely, if you had 50 pedigrees of dogs with confirmed SM 2yrs ago, wouldn't alarm bells have been ringing then?

Also you remark on the change of head shape about 20 yrs ago, has this been proved? and also had all the 50 dogs with SM that you had pedigrees for got the altered skull shape?
 
I doubt whether that is always true, I suspect SM is worse in cavaliers bred by show breeders that closely line breed.

I am confused-- wouldn't line breeding on dogs that have been cleared (MRI'd) produce more clear (in theory)? Isn't that what some breeders are banking on??
 
Sandy wrote: I have found flaws with the breeding protocol.
I have a friend that had a cavalier pass it's heart exam at 5.5 years-- the dog died of MVD before 6.5 years. According to the breeding protocol-- this is FINE.
I have another friend that had a dog get a murmur at 4-- neutered immediately and taken out of the breeding program. He died at 14 -- NOT of MVD. Acccording to the breeding protocol-- this dog shouldn't have been used.
-------------------------------
Sandy,

There are always anomalies to any generality - but there is a difference between an anomaly to a protocol versus a "flaw" in a protocol. In general, the earlier that a Cavalier develops a heart murmur, the shorter his/her lifespan. BUT, the rate of progression of MVD in individual Cavaliers is quite variable as we all know. Some of that variability is likely genetic and some is environmental - including what resources and motivation the owner has (access to cardiologist, motivation to keep weight good, knowledge about alternative care, for example) - and some, I'm convinced, is just plain luck!

My Darby is a perfect example - his breeder neutered him when he was diagnosed with a murmur at 18 months at a heart clinic, and he was placed in a pet home. He was euthanized at 15 yrs, 2 mos due to quality of life issues (senile, blind, deaf as well as some neurological disorder) without ever going into heart failure. (It was good that he was pulled from the breeding pool as he also had bilateral juvenile cataracts.)

But this doesn't mean that we should just give up and ignore the MVD breeding protocol and let everyone do as they please. We must have some scheme in place (and this one was recommended by a group of cardiologists) in order to make ANY kind of progress. This means that some Cavaliers will be left in the breeding pool that probably should not be there and some Cavaliers will be culled when they should not be. But the majority will be appropriately placed and even more so the succeeding generations. I know some breeders in the US who have made wonderful progress within their program by following the protocol. I think that amazing progress could be made within a few generations if all of the club breeders around the world adhered to the protocol. I believe that the difference in longevity between these Cavaliers and puppy mill/BYB Cavaliers would become known to pet purchasers, particularly those who are not purchasing their first Cavalier as they are generally more knowledgeable about the breed.

Best,


Pat
 
Sandy wrote: I have found flaws with the breeding protocol.
I have a friend that had a cavalier pass it's heart exam at 5.5 years-- the dog died of MVD before 6.5 years. According to the breeding protocol-- this is FINE.
I have another friend that had a dog get a murmur at 4-- neutered immediately and taken out of the breeding program. He died at 14 -- NOT of MVD. Acccording to the breeding protocol-- this dog shouldn't have been used.
-------------------------------
Sandy,

There are always anomalies to any generality - but there is a difference between an anomaly to a protocol versus a "flaw" in a protocol. In general, the earlier that a Cavalier develops a heart murmur, the shorter his/her lifespan. BUT, the rate of progression of MVD in individual Cavaliers is quite variable as we all know. Some of that variability is likely genetic and some is environmental - including what resources and motivation the owner has (access to cardiologist, motivation to keep weight good, knowledge about alternative care, for example) - and some, I'm convinced, is just plain luck!

My Darby is a perfect example - his breeder neutered him when he was diagnosed with a murmur at 18 months at a heart clinic, and he was placed in a pet home. He was euthanized at 15 yrs, 2 mos due to quality of life issues (senile, blind, deaf as well as some neurological disorder) without ever going into heart failure. (It was good that he was pulled from the breeding pool as he also had bilateral juvenile cataracts.)

But this doesn't mean that we should just give up and ignore the MVD breeding protocol and let everyone do as they please. We must have some scheme in place (and this one was recommended by a group of cardiologists) in order to make ANY kind of progress. This means that some Cavaliers will be left in the breeding pool that probably should not be there and some Cavaliers will be culled when they should not be. But the majority will be appropriately placed and even more so the succeeding generations. I know some breeders in the US who have made wonderful progress within their program by following the protocol. I think that amazing progress could be made within a few generations if all of the club breeders around the world adhered to the protocol. I believe that the difference in longevity between these Cavaliers and puppy mill/BYB Cavaliers would become known to pet purchasers, particularly those who are not purchasing their first Cavalier as they are generally more knowledgeable about the breed.

Best,


Pat

Well, many breeders have noted the same anomaly. I'd much rather have a dog with a asymptomatic murmur at 4 and live a long life, than a clear dog at 5+ dead before 7. The flaw is that dogs that died before 7 would still be within the protocol. Is that what we want?? I'd rather have LONG lived dogs in my dogs pedigree-- even if the breeder did breed their great grand dams at 2 instead of 2.5.




I took in 9 dogs for heart tests-- 5 were 5 and OLDER-- only two had any murmur -- neither were under 5.
 
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I am a member of the CKCSC, USA-- No they don't require ANY proof of anything beyond my being a member of good standing and my dogs are properly registered with the club.
CKCSC-USA members are required to provide certificate proof for this if they want to register a litter and I think the purpose for this is to maintain the integrity of the Pedigree Register.
http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc.nsf/Founded-1954/breederdna.html

CKCSC-USA DNA policy

To All Stud Dog Owners And Breeders

Please be aware that as of January 1, 2005 DNA profiles will be required for ALL sires and dams for ALL CKCSC, USA litter applications. No CKCSC, USA applications to register a litter submitted after January 1, 2005 will be processed without this DNA information on both parents. DNA profiles need only to be submitted once as they will be kept on file with the CKCSC, USA registration office. (please submit a copy of the certificate that is issued to the registration office)

IMPORTANT
As of January 1, 2007, the only DNA lab that we will accept DNA profiles (certificates), is the AKC Lab

If you have any questions about DNA testing or if this policy will apply to your dog or your litter, please contact the registration office.

AKC DNA Diagnostic lab information.
www.akc.org
919-233-9767
cost prepaid 35.00 otherwise 40.00
turn around time 8-10 weeks.
American Kennel Club
5580 Centerview Dr.
Ste 200
Raleigh, NC 27606
.
 
CKCSC-USA members are required to provide certificate proof for this if they want to register a litter and I think the purpose for this is to maintain the integrity of the Pedigree Register.
http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc.nsf/Founded-1954/breederdna.html

CKCSC-USA DNA policy

To All Stud Dog Owners And Breeders

Please be aware that as of January 1, 2005 DNA profiles will be required for ALL sires and dams for ALL CKCSC, USA litter applications. No CKCSC, USA applications to register a litter submitted after January 1, 2005 will be processed without this DNA information on both parents. DNA profiles need only to be submitted once as they will be kept on file with the CKCSC, USA registration office. (please submit a copy of the certificate that is issued to the registration office)

IMPORTANT
As of January 1, 2007, the only DNA lab that we will accept DNA profiles (certificates), is the AKC Lab

If you have any questions about DNA testing or if this policy will apply to your dog or your litter, please contact the registration office.

AKC DNA Diagnostic lab information.
www.akc.org
919-233-9767
cost prepaid 35.00 otherwise 40.00
turn around time 8-10 weeks.
American Kennel Club
5580 Centerview Dr.
Ste 200
Raleigh, NC 27606
.

I answered Bet's question about what it took to be on the puppy register. A member in good standing and registered dogs.

This isn't a health cert. It is a cheek swab.
 
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Talking to Cavalier Owners.

YorkieSue,

Be intrigued no longer!.

Around 5-6 years ago when SM was making it's appearance in our Cavalier Breed ,I was helping Dr C Rusbridge ,Neurologist, and Penny Knowler for about 1 and a half years with the Cavalier Pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from SM.They were Researching into the Problem.This was when my trouble started with certain Cavalier Breeders ,I was their Blue Eyed Girl,at that time,I could'nt make sense of the SM Problem. and unfortunately said so. Then when I realized how wrong I was in what I was saying, and that SM is such a serious Disease to be afflicting our Breed I sure am still paying the price to-day .

No ,it was'nt any of those Cavalier Pedigrees that I sent to Dr Cattanach, I had obtained them from the Internet , they were on for a couple of days then with- drawn.

Now onto your comment about the change of Cavaliers Heads, I don't know how long you have been involved with the Cavalier Breed , I have been a Cavalier Pet Owner, and as I have mentioned that in the late 80's -early 90's the Cavaliers were being Bred with Smaller Heads, no idea whether any of the Cavaliers' pedigrees with SM had Large or Small Heads, some of those Pedigrees had come from America.

All I know is that Dr Rusbridge has discussed the Minaturizing of Cavaliers in her Thesis ..published 2007, perhaps you should get a Copy and read it, failing that ,read Dr Rusbridge's Veterinary Web Site.
 
YorkieSue,

Be intrigued no longer!.

Around 5-6 years ago when SM was making it's appearance in our Cavalier Breed ,I was helping Dr C Rusbridge ,Neurologist, and Penny Knowler for about 1 and a half years with the Cavalier Pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from SM.They were Researching into the Problem.This was when my trouble started with certain Cavalier Breeders ,I was their Blue Eyed Girl,at that time,I could'nt make sense of the SM Problem. and unfortunately said so. Then when I realized how wrong I was in what I was saying, and that SM is such a serious Disease to be afflicting our Breed I sure am still paying the price to-day .

No ,it was'nt any of those Cavalier Pedigrees that I sent to Dr Cattanach, I had obtained them from the Internet , they were on for a couple of days then with- drawn.

Now onto your comment about the change of Cavaliers Heads, I don't know how long you have been involved with the Cavalier Breed , I have been a Cavalier Pet Owner, and as I have mentioned that in the late 80's -early 90's the Cavaliers were being Bred with Smaller Heads, no idea whether any of the Cavaliers' pedigrees with SM had Large or Small Heads, some of those Pedigrees had come from America.

All I know is that Dr Rusbridge has discussed the Minaturizing of Cavaliers in her Thesis ..published 2007, perhaps you should get a Copy and read it, failing that ,read Dr Rusbridge's Veterinary Web Site.

Bet-- How long ago did you own cavaliers?
What age did they die?

Just wondering how someone could become so soured on a breed for YEARS and not currently own one.
 
Well, many breeders have noted the same anomaly. I'd much rather have a dog with a asymptomatic murmur at 4 and live a long life, than a clear dog at 5+ dead before 7. The flaw is that dogs that died before 7 would still be within the protocol. Is that what we want?? I'd rather have LONG lived dogs in my dogs pedigree-- even if the breeder did breed their great grand dams at 2 instead of 2.5.
-------------------------
OK, this illustrates why I don't engage in these debates - and I'll go back to my practice!

I obviously failed to make my point in the difference between an anomaly (or statistical fluke) and a flaw (or error) in any program. We have ALL noted this anomaly if we've been paying attention, and we're not all breeders! Most people know about bell curves in statistics - there is a huge group that falls mostly within the norm and a few individuals who will be on the far left and the far right of the curve (far left being early murmur/long living and far right being late murmur/early death).

Um, I think everyone would choose the long-living versus dead dog!!

Do we want a few short-lived dogs within the protocol? If a "no" answer means that the protocol is scrapped, then my answer is "yes, I want those dogs in the protocol because I want to HAVE a protocol designed by experts." And I know that successive generations will correct for this statistical anomaly pretty quickly. If we scrap the protocol because of these individual dogs who don't follow the general rule, then we've got nothing. A good excuse if people are looking for an excuse to dump the protocol, but not valid for me. (And actually, I think that you follow the protocol so not valid for you either!) And, the protocol only deals with parents and grandparents of a litter - doesn't go back further than that.

Pat
 
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