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Confused

First of all can I thank Margaret for her Sympathetic Post for the well being of our Cavalier Breed.

She has said what many of us Cavalier Pet Owners are feeling since we have now found out what is taking place in Dark Side of Breeding Cavaliers.

To Sandy,

Yes, I believe that Politicians know more about Back to Back Matings than Experts and Breeders.

The Politicians have SHOWN COMPASSION FOR BREEDING BITCHES!
 
I have had a Coffee before Posting this comment, should I or should I not, but here goes , I really do think that some Cavalier Breeders are now showing themselves up in an Unpleasant Light...or is it in their True Colours.

What harm have we Broken Hearted Cavalier Pet Owners ever done them?

Are they annoyed that we are no longer afraid to come out into the open and say that the Cavalier Breed does have Health Problems ,as is shown particularly by the MVD and SM Problems afflicting Cavaliers.

To put it bluntly ,the Cavalier Breed is ,at the Moment, a Sick Breed, there is no disguising that fact.

All those Cavalier Breeders who are making those Snide and Sneering Remarks such as my mention of Politicians knowing more than the Experts and a number of Cavalier Breeders about the Back to Back Breeding of Breeding Bitches ,have at least shown Compassion for those Bitches ,are only alienating us Lovers of Cavaliers who are shocked by the antics of some of those Breeders.

I was around 20 years ago and was involved with the Heart Touble in the Cavalier Breed .

It was never like then, what it is with the Viciousness and Vindictiveness that is happening in the Cavalier World to-day.

I never had to demand an apology and got one, a couple of weeks ago, about some of the Scurrilousness Things being said about me. ..
 
I really do think that some Cavalier Breeders are now showing themselves up in an Unpleasant Light...or is it in their True Colours.
Which reminds me, I saw someone on CC yesterday browsing.Username: Jemima.icon_nwunsureOf course she might be mistaken for someone else but if she spots anything fluorescent under the unpleasant light.....icon_whistling
Tara,
This really isn't a good time for amateurs to start breeding cavaliers,there's a strong possibility that it could make things very much worse.
It's a hard enough task just to find a pet puppy and join the queue,let alone find a breeding bitch over 2.5 years of age,SM screened and heart clear with parents over age five,heart clear etc....
and if you can find one,good luck with getting the owner to part with her.
It'd be easier to import a Sasquatch from Alaska.

As for the allegation about the bitch with the three of c sections,two of them back to back?
Leaving all protocols aside,all personalities out of the issue....
The pertinent question is:
If this actually occurred....Was this fair to the bitch?
Yes or No
Sins
 
Sins I totally agree with you about breeders not wanting to part with their females. When I got Rylie I was really looking for a girl. I talked to one breeder who actually did have a litter of mostly girls. She explained to me that as both parents and all grandparents were fully health tested and clear of any health issues she really wanted to place her girls with other breeders or if she couldn't do that to a pet home that would agree to leave them unspayed until they were old enough for health testing (we never got into exactly who kept the girl if the breeder decided to use her as a breeder). This made a lot of sense to me so I decided that of all my criteria sex wasn't really that important and we did end up getting Rylie (from a different breeder)
 
Sins

With being a lover of all and anything that lives and breaths on this earth of ours ,with a few obvious exceptions of a two legged variety ,and especially of our beautiful breed of Cavaliers ,and after taking note of all the arguements regarding C of E and the problems of the individual C S happenings ,to me it is still surely MORALLY WRONG to have put any living animal through the pain and stress of THREE C S .So my answer to this is the same as my Chairperson of the Cavalier Club I am proud to be a member of N O.:)
 
Tara, if you are suggesting that only those who breed dogs "would understand" other dog breeders and their challenges, and therefore others should not critique, that really is a bunch of rubbish.
Critique-- you call this critiquing? Based on hearsay people, who don't know the whole story are judge, jury and executioners. I don't know all the facts, so I will refrain from judgement. IF there was an issue, I will let those in the 'know' deal with it.
Would you then suggest that only teachers should be allowed to critique other teachers . . . leaving the children's parents not allowed to have opinion on what goes on in the classroom?
No, but I would never expect an uneducated or under educated parent dictate how, when and why my child should learn something in the classroom.
Because a person is NOT a breeder, does not leave that person void of knowledge of the difficult tasks involved and the challenging decisions that breeders have to make.
You would be surprised at how much the average person DOESN'T know about dog breeding.
As to suggesting that some of those concerned could get involved and lead by example, it is a wonderful idea. I hope some are inspired,(me too) but not everybody has the wherewithal or even time left in their life, to become a breeder. That should not preclude them from being able to formulate opinions on what is obviously right and wrong.
Tara and I come from the States, we (especially she) understands the rights of people to have opinions and even express them. She deserves the right to have HER opinion expressed.

Of course, it would be much better for cavaliers being produced, currently, if more of those involved already would lead by example! (and I know some are . . . hat's off to you.)

I've gone back to re-read and re-read this thread, because I am astonished the merits of breeding a bitch three seasons in a row, with the first two whelps ending in c-secitons, can be argued at all.
It must be a cultural thing-- here in the states we have numerous experts in reproduction. We have accepted that intervention is often safer than not. Csections vs hours and hours of labor and a higher death toll.
That is not the same as arguing about mating two seasons in a row. I cannot believe there would be a REPRO specialist in any country that would suggest three back to back breedings, when the first two required c-sections, would be healthy for the bitch!!

Arghhh, I shouldn't read this before work....
 
Politicians don't just make decisions up off the top of their heads, facts, evidence, opinions of experts in that particular field go into making judgements.

Is there actually a law against breeding back to back 3 times in the UK? or does it just go against CKCS and KC guidelines? has this back to back x 3 now been proven? (I don't read the other forum any more, I don't have valium on tap!)

My personal opinion is I don't like it one bit. Given the choice I would imagine the bitch in question felt the same!!
 
Which reminds me, I saw someone on CC yesterday browsing.Username: Jemima.icon_nwunsureOf course she might be mistaken for someone else but if she spots anything fluorescent under the unpleasant light.....icon_whistling
Tara,
This really isn't a good time for amateurs to start breeding cavaliers,there's a strong possibility that it could make things very much worse.
It's a hard enough task just to find a pet puppy and join the queue,let alone find a breeding bitch over 2.5 years of age,SM screened and heart clear with parents over age five,heart clear etc....
and if you can find one,good luck with getting the owner to part with her.
It'd be easier to import a Sasquatch from Alaska.

As for the allegation about the bitch with the three of c sections,two of them back to back?
Leaving all protocols aside,all personalities out of the issue....
The pertinent question is:
If this actually occurred....Was this fair to the bitch?
Yes or No
Sins

But the amateurs are the ones with all the answers (said tic). Many times I've seen "all you have to do is follow the protocols". Oh, we've had people on her that 'believe' all you have to do is breed a decent cavalier with another breed and presto, all the health concerns will disappear. Ughh.
I had a long discussion with a member of the DCA (dalmatians) and she disagrees with the 'success of crossbreeding' --

I agree that 3 c-sections in a row is harsh. But I don't know the circumstances.
 
Arghhh, I shouldn't read this before work....
True, how do any of us ever get any work doneicon_blshing?
I'm at home after my day serving the multinational pharmaceutical industry:rolleyes:
I agree that 3 c-sections in a row is harsh. But I don't know the circumstances.
Also very true.
Sins
 
Politicians don't just make decisions up off the top of their heads, facts, evidence, opinions of experts in that particular field go into making judgements.

Is there actually a law against breeding back to back 3 times in the UK? or does it just go against CKCS and KC guidelines? has this back to back x 3 now been proven? (I don't read the other forum any more, I don't have valium on tap!)

My personal opinion is I don't like it one bit. Given the choice I would imagine the bitch in question felt the same!!

I agree -- but many politicians are getting misinformation from groups that have agendas like "one generation and out" -- which is about people no longer being able to have any pets. The 'great politician' mindset here is: let's spay and neuter all the dogs. Some cities have tried to pass-- no breeding allowed.
 
True, how do any of us ever get any work doneicon_blshing?
I'm at home after my day serving the multinational pharmaceutical industry:rolleyes:

Also very true.
Sins

I do appreciate that you have shown thoughtful interpretations from both sides of these disagreements, Sins. IMO, the ability to 'listen' to others and form your own opinion is wisdom. Even if you don't agree with me-rotfl
 
I am glad that this subject is now being discussed,I just don't think it can be acceptible for any Cavalier Breeder to put their Cavalier through Back to Back Matings.

I am glad that there are a number of Cavalier Pet Owners with the same thoughts as I have.

I don't think a clause needs to be being interpreted by a Cavalier Breeder as to whether this is what should be happening to a Cavalier Breeding Bitch or not,surely commonsense and a little bit of Compassion would'nt go amiss.
 
I am glad that this subject is now being discussed,I just don't think it can be acceptible for any Cavalier Breeder to put their Cavalier through Back to Back Matings.

I am glad that there are a number of Cavalier Pet Owners with the same thoughts as I have.

I don't think a clause needs to be being interpreted by a Cavalier Breeder as to whether this is what should be happening to a Cavalier Breeding Bitch or not,surely commonsense and a little bit of Compassion would'nt go amiss.

I told you Bet, that I was told that under certain circumstances in the UK-- a cavalier bitch can be bred twice, back to back.
In the US, under certain circumstances, it is considered HEALTHIER being in whelp than not, so a back to back wouldn't be a major worry.
 
Hello Sandy

Hope you are fine ,just a comment from me pls regarding the 3 CS incidents, my knowledge of the pros and cons of 3 on the bounce is very limited so I therefore cannot enter into the discussion on any rules and regulations referring to them ,and also do not have any idea of peoples involved.
Having only become a carer of Cavaliers within the last three years my wonder of their intellect and loving nature towards all living creatures grows daily so I personally cannot see why anybody would knowingly for any purpose whatsoever be it either monetry gain or plain avarice to just have a better Cavalier than your neighbours, in your opinion, put these beautiful animals through the pain and stress of 3 C sections one after another .Surely these companions feel pain and horror just like you and I and surely they would cry out if cut with a knife just like you or I ,so my own opinion is that these C sections have been inflicted on that poor Cavalier for the sole reason of personnel gain of the Cavaliers owner and so this then knowingly vitually borders on being basic cruelty to animals for which we have an organisation called The RSPCA to protect animals from people who inflict cruelty on them and any other animal they may own .So my best wishes to you Sandy and my comments are just my own thoughts from a diffrent angle.
Kindest Regards
brian

PS and pls treat me gently as I fully admit my knowlege of any aspect of breeding is nothing apart from human when I can say three sons one daughter and 2 C sections (there in the theatre at both ) 1 forceps (there again ) and 1 normal ie last but not least our Luke and there again .
 
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Which reminds me, I saw someone on CC yesterday browsing.Username: Jemima.icon_nwunsureOf course she might be mistaken for someone else but if she spots anything fluorescent under the unpleasant light.....icon_whistling
Tara,
This really isn't a good time for amateurs to start breeding cavaliers,there's a strong possibility that it could make things very much worse.
It's a hard enough task just to find a pet puppy and join the queue,let alone find a breeding bitch over 2.5 years of age,SM screened and heart clear with parents over age five,heart clear etc....
and if you can find one,good luck with getting the owner to part with her.
It'd be easier to import a Sasquatch from Alaska.

As for the allegation about the bitch with the three of c sections,two of them back to back?
Leaving all protocols aside,all personalities out of the issue....
The pertinent question is:
If this actually occurred....Was this fair to the bitch?
Yes or No
Sins

In fairness Tara states "For those of you who have done so in the past, what about starting a breeding program again under the guidelines you propose?"
 
Here's a thought -- have any of you who criticize breeders so strongly considered breeding yourselves?][/
:oops:That's the part of the question I was replying to.
*Not firing on all cylinders today.
SIns
 
Tara, people who are concerned about breeding practice have many more constructive ways of contributing to future breed health than breeding themselves (not least as breeding dogs is not of interest: buying puppies from health focused breeders is. There's a huge difference. Just because I want better conditions for workers making clothes in developing countries doesn't mean I should set up a factory myself; I would rather work towards improved conditions).

What can people do? They can choose to buy their puppies from breeders who work with the best available advice on breeding and use the health protocols they want to see used. They can lobby clubs and KCs to better work towards breed health. They can raise funds for research. They can submit any tests done on their own dogs to researchers (many of us have spent far more on MRIs, often SOLELY for researchers, than breeders have. For example, the last 4 MRIs I had done were only done for research, not because I needed the MRI results). We can make submissions, as many have, to the working groups in the UK. We can work in many many ways towards better breed health and I encourage everyone to think about how they can make a personal contribution to this effort. (y)

As Sins says, the last thing the breed needs is more people breeding. I and many others prefer to work with the breeders who are putting the efforts into their own breeding programmes that we wish to see.

Believe me, every puppy buyer has the power to force through change simply by supporting health focused breeders. Every breeder needs to sell puppies to support their breeding programme and show hobby. As Margaret noted there are few breeders any longer who can simply hang on to extra puppies and run huge kennels. The puppies need to be sold. If people demand change in breeding practice before they will part with their money, breeders will be pushed by the power of YOUR dollar,pound,euro towards that goal. Unfortunately too many people still go for 'whatever puppies are available' because they want one now, not next month or next year, or they want the cheapest puppies. I see it happen over and over, including on this board where some find excuses for why this one time they need to buy the puppy from untested parents even though 'in theory' they believe in health testing. Make no mistake: that is as unethical and devastating to the breed as the worst type of breeder. Pet buyers need to wake up to their own implicit support of poor breeding practice through their unwillingness to pay for the bred-for-health puppy they claim they want but then do not actually buy. Health focused breeding has extra costs.
 
Brian,
I don't know anyone who would 'plan' three litters in a row on one bitch. I would never plan on three c-sections, let alone three in a row-- but I don't know the details of how/why it happened (if it did). All I've heard is probably 4th or 5th hand what somebody said -- somebody did.
If they did violate a c of e and get brought up on charges of violations-- then they will stand and state their case and probably pay a fine. THAT is what our club would do. Violations = fines (usually). Do it habitually and you can get kicked out of the club.

I bred a bitch two times in a row once (neither time did it take). This was a very nice bitch (great SM and cardio results in her pedigree). We decided to take her to a repro expert-- during her season he gave her a full check up and then he opened her up to see if anything was wrong. He then checked her reproductive organs (I decided not to get to graphic here)-- she seemed 100% hearty and healthy. He then did a surgical AI. She conceived 6 puppies. The surgery, which is almost as invasive as a c-section didn't cause her much issue at all. It was very difficult to keep her from jumping off the furniture. 57 days later she naturally delivered all 6 pups. The first one had difficulties passing - got stuck and seemed O2 deprived. He died the next day. My mind always comes back to-- If I'd done a c-section- he probably would have lived.
Decisions are always easier in hindsight-- and it is much easier when it isn't your dog.
 
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I personally dont see having C sections in breeding is a problem.
Its not as if we are talking of Chihuahuas or British Bull Dogs that cant actually naturally deliver at all (from what ive read)
Cavaliers can naturally deliver that isnt the issue. Healthy dogs that are important as a part of a breeding program should be allowed to be bred from, C sections are a common place and I only wish that a friend of mine was allowed one as that way she wouldnt have lost her baby as he was too big to come out naturally but at the point the doctors gave in and agreed the little boy (Nicholas) had already suffocted and died.
But I would imagine that it takes longer than the normal recovery time of a natural whelp.
I take this from the fact that humans I know have spent up to two weeks recovering from a C section in hospital.
So yes to put a dog through 3 or even 2 consecutive C sections on seasons in my personal opinion is appauling.

However I certainly dont think that a healthy dog (one that as I said is important to a breeding program) shouldnt be bred from if she cant deliver naturally- I think this breed is too far gone health wise to not use a healthy dog for breeding. We need all the healthy dogs we can get!!

Karen
 
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