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Thread: Confused

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen and Ruby View Post
    In my personal opinion pregnancy is EXHAUSTING stuff- bitches are pregnant for, 9 weeks and look after the young for anything from 6-10/12 weeks from what ive heard.
    They come in season every 6 months or so (24 weeks) so surely this would only give them a couple of weeks break in between each pregnancy.
    I dont know much about mating but from what ive heard the dogs are paired up for a couple of weeks or so to conceive.
    So from start to finish its anything from 17 weeks to 22 weeks of the dogs life.
    That to me sounds exhausting and I certainly wouldnt want to do it all again 2-3 weeks later!!
    Poor girls

    Karen
    Yes, bitches are in whelp for 56-64 days. They whelp and are extremely attentive for a few weeks. Then they often let others clean and even nurse their young. Having offspring in a pack dynamic is different than having one mother. There is no three months of exhausting mothering to be done. I've had mothers begin to wean their pups at 4 weeks and be DONE with them at 5. Their teeth are coming in at 4 and it can be very irritating.
    I've shown a bitch 4 weeks after she lost a litter. She was completely healed. There would have been no reason that 13 weeks from then she couldn't have been bred. I didn't.
    No, dogs are NOT paired up for a couple of weeks to conceive. Usually there are one to three breedings over the course of one to four days. depending on whether or not blood tests were done. A bitches eggs are only fertile for a maximum of a couple of days. Anyone who would breed their bitches over and over through the course of even a week doesn't know what they are doing.
    Oops, I gotta go-- work calls

  2. #12
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    Hi

    Wait for the bombs to go off on the other side.
    Brian M

    Poppy the Tri, Daisy the Blen, Rosie the Ruby and Lily the B & T

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    Hi

    Wait for the bombs to go off on the other side.
    LOL-- Brian!!!!
    We have a LAW here in the US, that states you can't drink alcoholic beverages until you are 21. ( you can go into service and die for your country at 18 ) Do all countries have this LAW. NO. It was established as a way to deal with .... well ..... stupidity.
    I believe the UK c of e was put in place for the same reason. Not because scientifically it was for the best. But as an attempt to deal with SOME breeders overbreeding their bitches. (stupidity-- meaning it would be stupid to risk a bitch and pups like that).

    Now do I feel that the European countries are negligent for allowing "underage drinking". NO.

  4. #14
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    Default Confused

    Sandy , I was not going to mention any more about Cavalier Breeders Breeding from their Cavaliers with back to back matings, but thanks to Karen's information I would just like to add ,that Cavalier Breeders who are carrying out this Breeding Policy ,against the Rules for Cavalier Breeding Bitches,have Scunnered me,Scot's word for Sickened me.

    In Britain ,you keep saying that it's different in America, there seems to be a lot more thought being given to Cavalier Breeding Bitches.

    I am sure there will now be other Pet Owners, Lovers of the Cavalier Breed who like me will have had their eyes opened by this Cavalier Breeding Practice. There is just no excuse for it .,for all the reasons that some Cavalier Breeders can concoct!
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  5. #15
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    I was told according to the policy, you can get permission to breed back to back. Just like in our club, they do realize that sometimes what is in the best interest of the dog isn't what is in the book.

    Bet, do you really believe that politicians KNOW more about breeding than breeders and EXPERTS in this field????

  6. #16
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    I have read the various posts here and on the other forum and must admit to a sinking feeling that cavaliers as a breed really don't have much of a future. Top breeders still believe that they should be left to do what they want, when they want to do it.
    Leading by example and breeding for health are not concepts they seem to understand.

    In the good old days dog breeding was the hobby of wealthy people. The kennels were large and if line breeding, or inbreeding, or even outcrossing to another breed was carried on, and proved disastrous, then the resulting puppies were culled or given away.
    With no internet forums where pet owners could contact each other, these puppies disappeared from general view and any inconvenient questions could be brushed aside.
    The breeders could afford to remove the parents from their breeding programme because they had replacements for both breeding and showing.

    Nowadays the whole scene has changed. The majority of breeders only have the room & the money to keep a handful of dogs. The diagnosis of a hereditary condition in their show winning stock can leave them with nothing to breed on with.
    The temptation is to say nothing about the unfortunate diagnosis and hope it will not be passed on to future puppies. Youngsters showing very early symptoms can be sold while they can still command a reasonable price.

    Some of the current breeders are now quoting what old time breeders did, and you can hear in every sentence just how much they resent the limitations that are now being imposed on them.

    Those long ago, experienced, breeders did have to learn from their mistakes, as it was the only way to do it then, but the cost was in dogs that suffered and owners who dealt with heartbreak.
    The world is different now, more compassionate, and like it or not, if breeders ignore the codes and protocols designed to protect animals that have no voice, then society will do something about it.

    An experienced breeder may consider themselves able to decide to mate a bitch on three consecutive seasons, or put her through three cesarean sections, and it may be that in other countries the thinking is different, but how then do you qualify 'experienced breeder' and how do you stop someone who is a beginner from believing that if long established breeders do something, then so can they?

    The protocols will only work if everybody sticks to them. If the protocols don't work then SM will get worse in every generation of cavaliers and pet owners will stop buying expensive heartbreak.

    Everybody can find a reason why this time the protocols should not count for them, and so they mate bitches too young because they don't want winter puppies, or they mate a year bitch because she is too immature for the show ring and they can't wait for her to mature naturally, or they use a 10 month dog at stud because otherwise he would never know what to do. ( yes, I believed that too when I first had a cavalier stud dog, but luckily no one had told my three year old chin dog when I came to use him )

    Until the 'guardians of the breed' stop using their cavaliers as commodities ( and I do not think that anybody who really love their dogs talks about them the way some of these breeders do) then nothing will improve for these lovely little dogs.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  7. #17
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    Great post, Margaret. That is exactly how I feel.
    Trisha in Southwest Florida
    Cavaliers: Casey, Ollie, & Winston and usually a foster or two! Cats: Pebbles & Benson

  8. #18
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    Here's a thought -- have any of you who criticize breeders so strongly considered breeding yourselves? For those of you who have done so in the past, what about starting a breeding program again under the guidelines you propose? If we fear for the breed's future (no arguments from me there), then how about getting involved in breeding itself?

    It is so very easy to criticize breeders if you're not one -- I'm not arguing the merits of either side here (I don't know enough to do so). But if breeders are doing it so wrong, why not throw your hats into the ring and help make it better? Then you could say, "this is how I do it and this is why you're wrong." Leading by example can be very effective.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    I have read the various posts here and on the other forum and must admit to a sinking feeling that cavaliers as a breed really don't have much of a future. Top breeders still believe that they should be left to do what they want, when they want to do it.
    Leading by example and breeding for health are not concepts they seem to understand.

    In the good old days dog breeding was the hobby of wealthy people. The kennels were large and if line breeding, or inbreeding, or even outcrossing to another breed was carried on, and proved disastrous, then the resulting puppies were culled or given away.
    With no internet forums where pet owners could contact each other, these puppies disappeared from general view and any inconvenient questions could be brushed aside.
    The breeders could afford to remove the parents from their breeding programme because they had replacements for both breeding and showing.

    Nowadays the whole scene has changed. The majority of breeders only have the room & the money to keep a handful of dogs. The diagnosis of a hereditary condition in their show winning stock can leave them with nothing to breed on with.
    The temptation is to say nothing about the unfortunate diagnosis and hope it will not be passed on to future puppies. Youngsters showing very early symptoms can be sold while they can still command a reasonable price.

    Some of the current breeders are now quoting what old time breeders did, and you can hear in every sentence just how much they resent the limitations that are now being imposed on them.

    Those long ago, experienced, breeders did have to learn from their mistakes, as it was the only way to do it then, but the cost was in dogs that suffered and owners who dealt with heartbreak.
    The world is different now, more compassionate, and like it or not, if breeders ignore the codes and protocols designed to protect animals that have no voice, then society will do something about it.

    An experienced breeder may consider themselves able to decide to mate a bitch on three consecutive seasons, or put her through three cesarean sections, and it may be that in other countries the thinking is different, but how then do you qualify 'experienced breeder' and how do you stop someone who is a beginner from believing that if long established breeders do something, then so can they?

    The protocols will only work if everybody sticks to them. If the protocols don't work then SM will get worse in every generation of cavaliers and pet owners will stop buying expensive heartbreak.

    Everybody can find a reason why this time the protocols should not count for them, and so they mate bitches too young because they don't want winter puppies, or they mate a year bitch because she is too immature for the show ring and they can't wait for her to mature naturally, or they use a 10 month dog at stud because otherwise he would never know what to do. ( yes, I believed that too when I first had a cavalier stud dog, but luckily no one had told my three year old chin dog when I came to use him )

    Until the 'guardians of the breed' stop using their cavaliers as commodities ( and I do not think that anybody who really love their dogs talks about them the way some of these breeders do) then nothing will improve for these lovely little dogs.
    Really?? These are the worst things you can think of happening to cavaliers?
    Last edited by WoodHaven; 22nd October 2009 at 05:57 AM.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tara View Post
    Here's a thought -- have any of you who criticize breeders so strongly considered breeding yourselves? For those of you who have done so in the past, what about starting a breeding program again under the guidelines you propose? If we fear for the breed's future (no arguments from me there), then how about getting involved in breeding itself?

    It is so very easy to criticize breeders if you're not one -- I'm not arguing the merits of either side here (I don't know enough to do so). But if breeders are doing it so wrong, why not throw your hats into the ring and help make it better? Then you could say, "this is how I do it and this is why you're wrong." Leading by example can be very effective.
    Tara, if you are suggesting that only those who breed dogs "would understand" other dog breeders and their challenges, and therefore others should not critique, that really is a bunch of rubbish.

    Would you then suggest that only teachers should be allowed to critique other teachers . . . leaving the children's parents not allowed to have opinion on what goes on in the classroom?

    Because a person is NOT a breeder, does not leave that person void of knowledge of the difficult tasks involved and the challenging decisions that breeders have to make.

    As to suggesting that some of those concerned could get involved and lead by example, it is a wonderful idea. I hope some are inspired, but not everybody has the wherewithal or even time left in their life, to become a breeder. That should not preclude them from being able to formulate opinions on what is obviously right and wrong.

    Of course, it would be much better for cavaliers being produced, currently, if more of those involved already would lead by example! (and I know some are . . . hat's off to you.)

    I've gone back to re-read and re-read this thread, because I am astonished the merits of breeding a bitch three seasons in a row, with the first two whelps ending in c-secitons, can be argued at all.

    That is not the same as arguing about mating two seasons in a row. I cannot believe there would be a REPRO specialist in any country that would suggest three back to back breedings, when the first two required c-sections, would be healthy for the bitch!!
    Last edited by Oreo; 22nd October 2009 at 06:52 AM.

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