Confused

**Oreo** · 22nd October 2009, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by chloe92us

Great post, Margaret. That is exactly how I feel.

I'll echo that.

**Bet** · 22nd October 2009, 09:14 AM

First of all can I thank Margaret for her Sympathetic Post for the well being of our Cavalier Breed.

She has said what many of us Cavalier Pet Owners are feeling since we have now found out what is taking place in Dark Side of Breeding Cavaliers.

To Sandy,

Yes, I believe that Politicians know more about Back to Back Matings than Experts and Breeders.

The Politicians have SHOWN COMPASSION FOR BREEDING BITCHES!

**Bet** · 22nd October 2009, 11:44 AM

I have had a Coffee before Posting this comment, should I or should I not, but here goes , I really do think that some Cavalier Breeders are now showing themselves up in an Unpleasant Light...or is it in their True Colours.

What harm have we Broken Hearted Cavalier Pet Owners ever done them?

Are they annoyed that we are no longer afraid to come out into the open and say that the Cavalier Breed does have Health Problems ,as is shown particularly by the MVD and SM Problems afflicting Cavaliers.

To put it bluntly ,the Cavalier Breed is ,at the Moment, a Sick Breed, there is no disguising that fact.

All those Cavalier Breeders who are making those Snide and Sneering Remarks such as my mention of Politicians knowing more than the Experts and a number of Cavalier Breeders about the Back to Back Breeding of Breeding Bitches ,have at least shown Compassion for those Bitches ,are only alienating us Lovers of Cavaliers who are shocked by the antics of some of those Breeders.

I was around 20 years ago and was involved with the Heart Touble in the Cavalier Breed .

It was never like then, what it is with the Viciousness and Vindictiveness that is happening in the Cavalier World to-day.

I never had to demand an apology and got one, a couple of weeks ago, about some of the Scurrilousness Things being said about me. ..

**sins** · 22nd October 2009, 12:17 PM

I really do think that some Cavalier Breeders are now showing themselves up in an Unpleasant Light...or is it in their True Colours.

Which reminds me, I saw someone on CC yesterday browsing.Username: Jemima.

Of course she might be mistaken for someone else but if she spots anything fluorescent under the unpleasant light.....

Tara,
This really isn't a good time for amateurs to start breeding cavaliers,there's a strong possibility that it could make things very much worse.
It's a hard enough task just to find a pet puppy and join the queue,let alone find a breeding bitch over 2.5 years of age,SM screened and heart clear with parents over age five,heart clear etc....
and if you can find one,good luck with getting the owner to part with her.
It'd be easier to import a Sasquatch from Alaska.

As for the allegation about the bitch with the three of c sections,two of them back to back?
Leaving all protocols aside,all personalities out of the issue....
The pertinent question is:
If this actually occurred....Was this fair to the bitch?
Yes or No
Sins

**Mindysmom** · 22nd October 2009, 12:43 PM

Sins I totally agree with you about breeders not wanting to part with their females. When I got Rylie I was really looking for a girl. I talked to one breeder who actually did have a litter of mostly girls. She explained to me that as both parents and all grandparents were fully health tested and clear of any health issues she really wanted to place her girls with other breeders or if she couldn't do that to a pet home that would agree to leave them unspayed until they were old enough for health testing (we never got into exactly who kept the girl if the breeder decided to use her as a breeder). This made a lot of sense to me so I decided that of all my criteria sex wasn't really that important and we did end up getting Rylie (from a different breeder)

**Brian M** · 22nd October 2009, 12:45 PM

Sins

With being a lover of all and anything that lives and breaths on this earth of ours ,with a few obvious exceptions of a two legged variety ,and especially of our beautiful breed of Cavaliers ,and after taking note of all the arguements regarding C of E and the problems of the individual C S happenings ,to me it is still surely MORALLY WRONG to have put any living animal through the pain and stress of THREE C S .So my answer to this is the same as my Chairperson of the Cavalier Club I am proud to be a member of N O.

**WoodHaven** · 22nd October 2009, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Oreo

Tara, if you are suggesting that only those who breed dogs "would understand" other dog breeders and their challenges, and therefore others should not critique, that really is a bunch of rubbish.
Critique-- you call this critiquing? Based on hearsay people, who don't know the whole story are judge, jury and executioners. I don't know all the facts, so I will refrain from judgement. IF there was an issue, I will let those in the 'know' deal with it.
Would you then suggest that only teachers should be allowed to critique other teachers . . . leaving the children's parents not allowed to have opinion on what goes on in the classroom?
No, but I would never expect an uneducated or under educated parent dictate how, when and why my child should learn something in the classroom.
Because a person is NOT a breeder, does not leave that person void of knowledge of the difficult tasks involved and the challenging decisions that breeders have to make.
You would be surprised at how much the average person DOESN'T know about dog breeding.
As to suggesting that some of those concerned could get involved and lead by example, it is a wonderful idea. I hope some are inspired,(me too) but not everybody has the wherewithal or even time left in their life, to become a breeder. That should not preclude them from being able to formulate opinions on what is obviously right and wrong.
Tara and I come from the States, we (especially she) understands the rights of people to have opinions and even express them. She deserves the right to have HER opinion expressed.

Of course, it would be much better for cavaliers being produced, currently, if more of those involved already would lead by example! (and I know some are . . . hat's off to you.)

I've gone back to re-read and re-read this thread, because I am astonished the merits of breeding a bitch three seasons in a row, with the first two whelps ending in c-secitons, can be argued at all.
It must be a cultural thing-- here in the states we have numerous experts in reproduction. We have accepted that intervention is often safer than not. Csections vs hours and hours of labor and a higher death toll.
That is not the same as arguing about mating two seasons in a row. I cannot believe there would be a REPRO specialist in any country that would suggest three back to back breedings, when the first two required c-sections, would be healthy for the bitch!!

Arghhh, I shouldn't read this before work....

**Clairelou** · 22nd October 2009, 02:19 PM

Politicians don't just make decisions up off the top of their heads, facts, evidence, opinions of experts in that particular field go into making judgements.

Is there actually a law against breeding back to back 3 times in the UK? or does it just go against CKCS and KC guidelines? has this back to back x 3 now been proven? (I don't read the other forum any more, I don't have valium on tap!)

My personal opinion is I don't like it one bit. Given the choice I would imagine the bitch in question felt the same!!

**WoodHaven** · 22nd October 2009, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by sins

Which reminds me, I saw someone on CC yesterday browsing.Username: Jemima.

Of course she might be mistaken for someone else but if she spots anything fluorescent under the unpleasant light.....

Tara,
This really isn't a good time for amateurs to start breeding cavaliers,there's a strong possibility that it could make things very much worse.
It's a hard enough task just to find a pet puppy and join the queue,let alone find a breeding bitch over 2.5 years of age,SM screened and heart clear with parents over age five,heart clear etc....
and if you can find one,good luck with getting the owner to part with her.
It'd be easier to import a Sasquatch from Alaska.

As for the allegation about the bitch with the three of c sections,two of them back to back?
Leaving all protocols aside,all personalities out of the issue....
The pertinent question is:
If this actually occurred....Was this fair to the bitch?
Yes or No
Sins

But the amateurs are the ones with all the answers (said tic). Many times I've seen "all you have to do is follow the protocols". Oh, we've had people on her that 'believe' all you have to do is breed a decent cavalier with another breed and presto, all the health concerns will disappear. Ughh.
I had a long discussion with a member of the DCA (dalmatians) and she disagrees with the 'success of crossbreeding' --

I agree that 3 c-sections in a row is harsh. But I don't know the circumstances.