• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

Confused

I had made up my mind I was not going to send any-more Posts till the Second of November,next Monday,when the APGAW Report is to be given . but I just had to thank Karlin and Margaret for what they have just Posted.

Also Thanks Orea ,for your comments to me, it sure has been ,as we say in Scotland, A SAIR FECHT, or translated ,a sore struggle,for the past 20 years trying to get across to most Cavalier Breeders about the MVD Problem in our Lovely Breed.

To Sandy ,I noted with interest you have had I think it was 10 years been involved with Cavaliers, why don't you listen to us Cavalier Pet Owners, who have had Cavaliers for 30-40 years, and been writing to Cavalier Committees etc, to get them to take notice of the MVD Problem.

I wish I could give the names of Cavalier Champions, who have died at a young age from Heart Trouble, and were known to have a Heart Condition ,but were still being used for Breeding, is this why I have to take so many offensive Remarks, ,are those Cavalier Breeders afraid I will spill the beans, but those Cavaliers' names along with others that I have discovered,
have all been sent to Researchers into the MVD problem in Britain and Abroad,for them to try and find out if there is a Link in some Lines .

To MURPHY ,IT WAS EVER THUS ,in the Health Problems of our Breed, will it ever change,
another Scot's Phrase I HAE MY DOOTS!!

I doubt it.
 
Bet said:
I had made up my mind I was not going to send any-more Posts till the Second of November,next Monday,when the APGAW Report is to be given . but I just had to thank Karlin and Margaret for what they have just Posted.

Also Thanks Orea ,for your comments to me, it sure has been ,as we say in Scotland, A SAIR FECHT, or translated ,a sore struggle,for the past 20 years trying to get across to most Cavalier Breeders about the MVD Problem in our Lovely Breed.

To Sandy ,I noted with interest you have had I think it was 10 years been involved with Cavaliers, why don't you listen to us Cavalier Pet Owners, who have had Cavaliers for 30-40 years, and been writing to Cavalier Committees etc, to get them to take notice of the MVD Problem.


I wish I could give the names of Cavalier Champions, who have died at a young age from Heart Trouble, and were known to have a Heart Condition ,but were still being used for Breeding, is this why I have to take so many offensive Remarks, ,are those Cavalier Breeders afraid I will spill the beans, but those Cavaliers' names along with others that I have discovered,
have all been sent to Researchers into the MVD problem in Britain and Abroad,for them to try and find out if there is a Link in some Lines .

To MURPHY ,IT WAS EVER THUS ,in the Health Problems of our Breed, will it ever change,
another Scot's Phrase I HAE MY DOOTS!!

I doubt it.
Click to expand...

I don't listen to all pet owners-- BUT,I am a pet owner. IF I followed the last pet owner advice-- I'd sell more puppies for cheaper prices. That was the last kernel of brilliance from a pet owner. Or the pet owner from month ago that wanted me to breed my cavaliers with bishon to make them healthier. Yes, that is why I don't listen to pet owners.

The only people I know that owned cavalier 40 years ago (most of my life) were breeders.

Bet, you said you don't own a cavalier now. I owned a GSP from age 2-18-- that doesn't make me a hunting expert now.

I too would LOVE to know the names of these cavaliers that HAD MVD heart issue and was still used. What there ages were etc... You keep saying it happened, but you fall short of saying there were any to be named.

APGAW-- political animal welfarists-- Hey in a few years the HSUS will be right up there.
 
Oreo said:
From the link posted:

"When selecting a Cavalier, as with any purebred dog, potential owners should visit a reputable breeder and check the medical history of several previous generations.”

What if the reputable breeders that you have contact with, and that show their dogs, and health test, only sometimes follow protocol, and because you live in North America they tell you MRIs are too expensive?

What if you find a breeder who shows and socializes the puppies, and health tests, and sometimes follows protocol, but you also know they have put a fairly recent litter, or maybe two or three, on the ground with something like a sire aged just barely two, a grandsire just three, a great grandsire just four and a great-great grandsire just five?

Too often, looking at breeders, this is what I find, still even, and I tell you it is leaving me wondering about the future of this breed and hoping that more breeders are going to start leading by example every time they breed.

And I don't want to just hope. I know that as a pet owner looking for a Cavalier I have had many "reputable" breeders avoid my questions about MRIs and about protocol. I know that even four years ago it was almost impossible to find open information about how serious a problem SM was in this breed on club websites. That needs to change.

I am glad for advocates getting the word out and openly questionning, like Carol Fowler and Bolshie Bet, and breeders like Mark Marshall and Margaret Carter and I'm sure some others who are willing to admit they would do things differently now that they know more, or that they are just beginning, but that they are trying to now do their best to let pet owners know about MVD and SM and about what questions to ask. I am glad for the pressure they are applying.

I am glad for Rod's Cavalier Health website and PDE as they have reached farther than internet lists ever could, and farther, it seems, than clubs wanted them to. I just don't understand why breeders who have Cavaliers best interests at heart would not want more pet owners to know.
Click to expand...

Oreo-- MRI's in the USA are very expensive. I've paid as little as about 1400USD and as much as 2400USD and this was 3-4 years ago. Now add to that, that if done before 30 months of age, it should be done again, and possibly again after 6.

I agree that you (as a buyer) should ask questions-- if you don't like the answers, walk away. I think I put more time and effort investigating my last car than people want to do with buying a dog, that will be a bigger part of their day to day lives.

WHO said they didn't want pet owners to know about these debilitating diseases?
 
Sandy,

I have no intention of making around the 400 Cavalier Pedigrees of Cavaliers who died from Heart Trouble,that I have collected,known, they are with the Researchers at Universities , Researching the Heart Problem in our Breed

Why don't you do the same..
 
Sandy,

Forgot to mention how to get pedigrees of Cavaliers dying from Heart Trouble ,to do what I did, Put adverts in Pet Magazines, or any other means, asking Cavalier Pet Owners to contact me if their Cavalier had died from Heart Trouble ,and to send me the Cavalier's pedigree.

Talk with Cavalier Breeders who are willing to pass on information about this.Then when you have all this information gathered to-gether,give it to Researchers ,to help in their Heart Research into the Problem in Cavaliers.

Sandy ,best of luck in your enterprise.
 
Bet said:
Sandy,

I have no intention of making around the 400 Cavalier Pedigrees of Cavaliers who died from Heart Trouble,that I have collected,known, they are with the Researchers at Universities , Researching the Heart Problem in our Breed

Why don't you do the same..
Click to expand...

I don't have the first hand knowledge you keep speaking of. I don't know which dog got a murmur when. My crystal ball and my magic eight ball are giving me different answers. YOU are the one that seems to be speaking from direct knowledge.
 
I think this comment can be included on this Thread,.I sure am confused.

What is happening to the Cavalier Breed today, just saw some Photos on another Cavalier Site.

I have mentioned about to-day's Cavaliers having Smaller Heads, but now they seem to have Longer Backs, Shorter Legs, and their Back Ends seem to be Sloping downwards like German Shepherds.

Is this the type of Cavalier that is catching the Judges Eye for winning in the Show Ring.

Could it be possible that this Minaturizing of the Cavalier Breed is involved with their SM Problem.

Take a look at Ch Daywell Roger, the Pargeter Cavaliers, Maxholt's ,Crisdig's,Kindrum's ,and Ch Homaranne Caption. None of them looked in the least like the Cavaliers that are being Bred to-day.
 
Karlin has stated that many of the cavaliers winning seem to be over the breed standard(and I agree)-- and Bet you are worried about the miniaturization of the breed.

I just went to a cavalier specialty earlier in the month-- none of them matched your description: Bet and I quote
"I have mentioned about to-day's Cavaliers having Smaller Heads, but now they seem to have Longer Backs, Shorter Legs, and their Back Ends seem to be Sloping downwards like German Shepherds. "
 
Bet said:
I think this comment can be included on this Thread,.I sure am confused.

What is happening to the Cavalier Breed today, just saw some Photos on another Cavalier Site.

I have mentioned about to-day's Cavaliers having Smaller Heads, but now they seem to have Longer Backs, Shorter Legs, and their Back Ends seem to be Sloping downwards like German Shepherds.

Is this the type of Cavalier that is catching the Judges Eye for winning in the Show Ring.

Could it be possible that this Minaturizing of the Cavalier Breed is involved with their SM Problem.

Take a look at Ch Daywell Roger, the Pargeter Cavaliers, Maxholt's ,Crisdig's,Kindrum's ,and Ch Homaranne Caption. None of them looked in the least like the Cavaliers that are being Bred to-day.
Click to expand...

Please can you tell us what the other Cavalier site is that you saw these photo's on so that others that are interested in breed type can judge the pictures for themselves. Otherwise we have only your word to go on - as a pet owner.

Thank you
 
It isn't actually just Bet saying this about cavalier heads: many breeders are saying this, it has been a point of interest for several researchers, and there is strong evidence that many breeds have had their skulls hugely reshaped in the space of just a few decades. PDE showed some of these and there are images from an academic collections of canine skulls online as well -- I will look for the link.

I have a 1970s book on cavaliers -- the one Laura takes some of this images from -- and the difference in heads is startling in just 30-40 years. The dogs of the 70s had longer muzzles, typically, larger heads and skulls, less compression at the front and back of the head. As Laura notes, many of the dogs pictured are either champions of the time or are from the leading kennels of the time in the UK and US. You'd hardly recognise some of them as cavaliers any longer -- I'd think they were crosses or really poorly bred BYB dogs if they came into rescue yet these dogs exactly fit the same breed standard used by breeders and judges now.

I'm glad Laura Lang has pulled all those images together -- she had them for a long time on a couple of different pages and this makes it far easier to see how deformed some of the skull shapes appear, with little space at the back for the cerebellum; and to see the comparison between 70s and current dogs.
 
This is the university with the dog skull collections (the largest in the world I believe) but can't find the page that shows the change in shape of staffies and St Bernards. :crash:

http://www-nmbe.unibe.ch/
 
The Cavalier Site that Bet mentions must be a different one to the links given (head photo's only) as as Bet says

".Cavaliers .... now they seem to have longer backs, Shorter legs, and backends seem to be sloping like German Shepherds"

This is the site I would like Bet to name so I can look at that also. Thanks.
 
Bet -- when you address Sandy, you are addressing one of a very few breeders in this country with a breeding practice which regularly includes MRI'd dogs.

Just an FYI. You're shooting the messenger of your desires when you go after Sandy.
 
Yorkysue said:
The Cavalier Site that Bet mentions must be a different one to the links given (head photo's only) as as Bet says

".Cavaliers .... now they seem to have longer backs, Shorter legs, and backends seem to be sloping like German Shepherds"

This is the site I would like Bet to name so I can look at that also. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Just look at the Crufts photos from this year- I was there and was horrified at some of the dogs I was looking at- one of the winners of a certain class had bowed legs!!
 
Sandy

Im being totally honest. I was truley shocked as having Ruby im used to her 'old' style look- very flat head and long muzzle and she is also quite a big cav.
Im not used to the show look and was mortified, they just didnt look right and I stood there for a few hours watching a few of the classes before I went and watched a friend in the Obedience finals
One of the Blenheims that won its class looked bow legged and its head was as domed as an American cocker, it also had a very squished up face- looked more like an king charles (and yes I do know the diff). Even my partner who doesnt know alot about dogs mentioned that it looked wrong.
Needless to say I left the area and went and watched the other dogs at work!!
 
Karen and Ruby said:
Sandy

Im being totally honest. I was truley shocked as having Ruby im used to her 'old' style look- very flat head and long muzzle and she is also quite a big cav.
Im not used to the show look and was mortified, they just didnt look right and I stood there for a few hours watching a few of the classes before I went and watched a friend in the Obedience finals
One of the Blenheims that won its class looked bow legged and its head was as domed as an American cocker, it also had a very squished up face- looked more like an king charles (and yes I do know the diff). Even my partner who doesnt know alot about dogs mentioned that it looked wrong.
Needless to say I left the area and went and watched the other dogs at work!!
Click to expand...

I wasn't doubting you -- I was hoping you were going to say it was a bulldog.
My dog lost her class (6 years ago and it still haunts me) to a cowhocked bitch that's feet literally pointed east and west( front and back feet). The second in the class was fully groomed ringside-- clippers, chalk and all.
 
WoodHaven said:
I wasn't doubting you -- I was hoping you were going to say it was a bulldog.
My dog lost her class (6 years ago and it still haunts me) to a cowhocked bitch that's feet literally pointed east and west( front and back feet). The second in the class was fully groomed ringside-- clippers, chalk and all.
Click to expand...

Oh no I know! I was just telling the whole story thats all :rolleyes:

That is shocking- it does make me wonder who qualifies some of these judges to make these desisons, there seem to be a few out there that are single minded and blinkered!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top