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Thread: Stop posturing, and show you mean what you say

  1. #1
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    Default Stop posturing, and show you mean what you say

    "We desperately need the DNA tests, and it is those who have long term breeding programmes who will be able to lead that way forward"

    Never were truer words written. This sentiment is expressed on the CavalierChat forum and written by one of the owners.

    It is an interesting fact that the only researchers in the UK that are gathering data and
    samples for the Geneticists in Canada are Dr Clare Rusbridge and Penny Knowler. It will be through their work, and their work only, that any DNA test will become available.

    They unfortunately are deeply unpopular as the 'Messengers' who first raised awareness of SM in Cavaliers, and we all know what happens to Messengers.

    The decade and more of work by these two remarkable women goes completely unmentioned and unacknowledged by those who should be most involved in helping and promoting what they are doing.

    On the CavalierChat forum........

    There is no mention of Clare's website, the most up-to-date and informative source of SM facts and research news, anywhere on CC or the Cavalierhealth website that it is linked to.

    There is no mention of requests for help from owners of older grade A dogs.

    There is no mention of the SM Cavalier Collection Scheme that provides tissue for genetic research.

    I understand that the CavalierHealth website and the associated Cavalier Planet were set up as a public relations exercise, and it shows.
    Now that there is a little more realism about the health issues facing the breed perhaps a rethink about some of the articles would be in order?

    There should be some sense of responsibility to new owners or prospective pet buyers that come to the site looking for honest information.
    At the moment what they will be reading is a load of wishful thinking.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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    Default

    Maybe they can ask Rod Russell for permission to link to or crosspost from his very useful and up to date list of current research publications and projects on the original Cavalier Health website: www.cavalierhealth.org?
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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    Default Stop Posturing ,and ShowYou Mean What You Say.

    Great Post Margaret.

    What really caught my eye,was the laughable mention on the Cavalier Chat List ,about the years of Observation by Experienced ,Dedicated, Breeders who have had a Long Term Breeding Program ,I kid you not !!!.

    This Comment surely can't be including the MVD Problem in Cavaliers. !!

    All I can say ,those Cavaliers Breeders have made a very Poor Job about the MVD Problem.

    As Margaret says, the only UK Researchers who are gathering Data and Samples for the Geneticists in Canada ,are Dr C Rusbridge and Penny Knowler.

    It is only ,as Margaret mentioned through their work ,that the SM/CM Genes will be found.

    All at the moment on the Cavalier Chat List ,are Posts from Listers who are reading Books written by Geneticists, and those Listers seem to think that that is all they need to be able
    to have the knowledge to understand the Complex Subject of Genetics.

    Surely they could contact the two Researchers who are most involved with the Genetic Research and get the prper information instead of the Speculations they are making.

    There is a Proverb.

    A Little Information is a Dangerous Thing,.

    This to me is so evident by what is being said at the moment on the Cavalier Chat List by those Pseudo Geneticists!
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Margaret,
    Having spent a deal of time last week in an effort to stop the attacking from both sides, because I considered it to be harmful, both to the pet-owners on your site, and to breeders(and still do), it would not be appropriate for me to retaliate against anything you have written in your post.

    I am no 'pet owner basher', nor will I ever be.

    I was not brought up to ridicule, embarrass, or otherwise defame anyone.

    All I will say is that there are many breeders on the CC List who have MRI scanned and heart-tested their stock. I am one. You know this.

    You also know that I and others have co-operated fully with the researchers over a period of years. DNA from my entire CKCS family and bloods have gone out to Montreal (from my over 5 clear CKCS)

    I have here at home, the first 2 litters born using Sarah Blott's EBV programme.

    But none of that seems to count for anything. I and others, have to be 'dragged down' and belittled, on an almost daily basis.

    We are even told by your Moderator in her post of yesterday that, if we do not wish to be lumped along with the breeders who are doing nothing, we must worry our breed clubs into doing something about the health programmes.

    When you have a moment, I would be obliged if you would explain to the Moderator exactly what has happened to me every time I tried that method - because you have all the details.

    Thank you for your time.
    Elspeth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    Great Post Margaret.

    What really caught my eye,was the laughable mention on the Cavalier Chat List ,about the years of Observation by Experienced ,Dedicated, Breeders who have had a Long Term Breeding Program ,I kid you not !!!.

    This Comment surely can't be including the MVD Problem in Cavaliers. !!

    All I can say ,those Cavaliers Breeders have made a very Poor Job about the MVD Problem.

    As Margaret says, the only UK Researchers who are gathering Data and Samples for the Geneticists in Canada ,are Dr C Rusbridge and Penny Knowler.

    It is only ,as Margaret mentioned through their work ,that the SM/CM Genes will be found.

    All at the moment on the Cavalier Chat List ,are Posts from Listers who are reading Books written by Geneticists, and those Listers seem to think that that is all they need to be able
    to have the knowledge to understand the Complex Subject of Genetics.

    Surely they could contact the two Researchers who are most involved with the Genetic Research and get the prper information instead of the Speculations they are making.

    There is a Proverb.

    A Little Information is a Dangerous Thing,.

    This to me is so evident by what is being said at the moment on the Cavalier Chat List by those Pseudo Geneticists!

    Bet,

    What is wrong with breeders reading, trying to digest, and learn from books on Genetics? They are trying to understand the complex issues. Why are you so horrible to them? These are the people who are trying to get to grips with it all, but to you they are just a soft target.

    Do you realise that you have included a couple of posters on this list in your comments above? Both Murphy and Woodhaven have tried to explain things from the standpoint of very concerned and caring breeders who do test their dogs, and want to learn as much about these aweful conditions as possible, and you have just poured scorn on them.

    It is very poor! Try and give some credit!

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    Default Stop Posturing ,and Show you Mean What You Say.

    Karlin,

    I am so sorry about this ,and all the others on this List ,who must really be wondering about some of the Folk in the UK Cavalier World, I have been asked by Norma Inglis ,who are the Hard Core of Cavalier Breeders I have Referred to.

    They are the ones who caused me quite a bit of distress ,just check on the Cavalier Chat List, by their insinuations that I have a Mental Problem,

    The one that really cut me up was the mention ,and I quote .

    That I am Blinded by the Heart Broken Tears that I have Cried as a Cherished Pet owner over many years ,Waterlogged .

    Can't see a thing ,.

    Not a dry eye in the House - unless it's on one of the Dogs of course ,Bred by an Unscrupulous Breeder who ignores such Things.

    Yes I did have a few more tears when I Read that Post. It was Vicious.

    Finally ,if I could mention ,and I will ask again , where were the Cavalier Breeders ,I don't know who they were, but there must have been a good number who knew about the Cavalier Heart Problem for the Past 20 years ,did'nt do much or any -thing about it, for there now to be 50% of Cavaliers with a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age, and the Cardiologist to have said at the recent UK CKCS CLUB ,that this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

    Yes I am so ashamed about what I said at the Beginning about Jemima Harrison and the PDE TV FILM,and wished I had never said them.

    I was so wrong ,as I have explained on several occasions , at that time I believed what I was saying ,.

    How wrong I was ,there were a few things in the Past year that me realize what a lot of rubbish I was Spouting about the SM Problem, but the most important one was when our UK Cavalier CLUB CHAIRMAN, wrote in CLUB WEB SITE, and as far as I know this statement is still on Rod's Web Site.

    There are many Members who are still not prepared to Health Check their Breeding Stock ,and of those who do ,it would appear that many would not hesitate to Breed from Affected Animals .
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Smile A good day

    On the internet today and found something that buoyed my mood (via Margarets list) a Cavalier breeder who has uploaded to her website in pdf format full details of all health checks on her cavs including over 5's hearts and MRI's - grades included. Praise to this breeder for her transparency and commitment to improving health!!! Not sure if I can post the link if anyone wants it PM me.



    There are pockets of light out there. Nothing can happen fast enough for any of us health concious cav lovers, both breeders and pet owners alike, but today I smiled at the above ray of light and thought I would share it with those who haven't seen it.
    Mum to Tallulah (blenheim)
    Three Precious Cavalier Angels in Heaven, until we meet again girls...xxx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    All I will say is that there are many breeders on the CC List who have MRI scanned and heart-tested their stock. I am one. You know this
    You also know that I and others have co-operated fully with the researchers over a period of years. DNA from my entire CKCS family and bloods have gone out to Montreal (from my over 5 clear CKCS
    I have here at home, the first 2 litters born using Sarah Blott's EBV programme

    But none of that seems to count for anything. I and others, have to be 'dragged down' and belittled, on an almost daily basis
    Hello Elspeth,
    As I have said before, in some things we will have to agree to disagree.

    I do not personally feel able to stop campaigning for more action, because I do not feel that cavaliers have that much time to spare.

    I know that you and the breeders like you have scanned generations of cavaliers, and bred using that information, and you deserve our thanks and gratitude. Nobody has tried more than you, at the cost of considerable time, effort, and expense.

    It is those who have the power to take things forwards, that 'talk the talk' but do not back up what they say with actions that I was addressing...............To be more specific, the owners and moderators of a website that is called cavalierhealth, which describes itself as "a practical approach to Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Health issues" and continues "This web site is dedicated to providing factual information on health issues relating to the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.
    Under the 'Health Issue' section there is no mention whatsoever of MVD. What will any one searching for information learn from the articles on that site?

    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    We are even told by your Moderator in her post of yesterday that, if we do not wish to be lumped along with the breeders who are doing nothing, we must worry our breed clubs into doing something about the health programmes

    When you have a moment, I would be obliged if you would explain to the Moderator exactly what has happened to me every time I tried that method - because you have all the details.
    What Karlin, Bet, Rod or anybody else posts here is their views. I don't always agree, but then they probably don't always agree with me.

    Having said that I do agree with Karlin that it is time that the silent majority started taking responsibility for what is ( or isn't ) being done in their name. If people do not try to have a voice in what is happening, and get those with the power to speed up the pace of change, then what will happen to this lovely breed?
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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    Default Stop Posturing ,and Showyou Mean What you Say.

    Here we go again Folks..Sorry to the Members on this List about all this, but this will be the Last Time I will be giving an Answer to those on the Cavalier Chat List ,who are doing their best to Goad Me.!!!

    In answer to the Vociferous Ones on the Cavalier Chat List.

    This Statement is on Rod's Web Site

    www.cavalierhealth.com.org

    This was stated by the Chairperson of the UK CKCS CLUB

    I quote it again, it has also appeared in DOGS TODAY,June 2009, mentioned by Jemima Harrison.

    "There are many Members who are still not prepared to Health Check their Breeding Stock, and of those who do it , it would appear that many would not hesitate to Breed from Affected Animals. "not my Statement but that of the UK CKCS CLUB Chair person.

    It does'nt matter now about the Slurs and Venemous Remarks that have been Hurled at me ,having just read the APGAW Report ,which I can say has sure made my day.

    Things will never go back to the way Cavaliers have been Bred ,I saw in the Report particular mention had been made about the wee Cavalier suffering from SM ,seen on Jemima Harrison's PDE TV FILM

    The APGAW 's Report also mentioned that SM is a Neurological Condition that occurs when a Dog's Skull is too Small( MY Thoughts ,is this the Minaturization I have been mentioning ,after Reading Dr C Rusbridge's latest Report "

    Another recommendation that has pleased me so much ,is that.

    Champion Show Dogs Undergo Health Screening before Prizes are awarded .

    I sure have been going on and on about this for so long .

    I especially meant the Cavaliers who could be suffering with a Heart Condition, that will be easily done, but I expect MRI Scanning will be a bit more difficult.
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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