Am I expecting too much; or, why I may never have the pleasure of owning a Cavalier

WoodHaven said:

Which tests? There are heart clinics at some UK shows that are FREE. Free--

Many of the breeders near me in the USA organize health clinics annually. Some even have open clinics for people to bring cavaliers/dogs to their homes.

Click to expand...

People who show their dogs will take full advantage of the heart/eye tests at the shows; but there are a lot of Breeders who don't show, and probably don't actually know a lot about cavaliers - apart from the fact that they have litters when mated!! - and that means an income!

I'm not saying that ALL breeders don't test - MRI scanning, eye screening, heart screening etc I'm saying the VAST majority don't do all the health checks available.

Clairelou said:

I'm not saying that ALL breeders don't test - MRI scanning, eye screening, heart screening etc I'm saying the VAST majority don't do all the health checks available.

Click to expand...

Where does it say that all cavaliers must be MRI'd??? It doesn't. Not even the protocol says that. But if you hear people repeat it often enough, it takes on a life of its own.

WoodHaven said:

Where does it say that all cavaliers must be MRI'd??? It doesn't. Not even the protocol says that. But if you hear people repeat it often enough, it takes on a life of its own.

Click to expand...

Can you please read my posts more carefully, I said health checks AVAILABLE where do you get this must from?????

I don't know,,,, maybe it is this verbatim

"MRI scanning, eye screening, heart screening etc I'm saying the VAST majority don't do all the health checks available."

I would NEVER breed a dog that didn't have a CERF eye screening or a cavalier without a current health heart cert.... so adding the MRI right on top of that list makes it sound mandatory. A MUST

Sandy in the UK under the Accredited Breeder Scheme all litters registered should have Eye Certificates for both sire and dam. The KC also strongly recommends they follow the breed club advice re SM and MVD.

In practice many experienced breeders consider the ABS to be a waste of time. Consequently when trying to locate a particular dog on the KC Health Test site we draw a blank.

diddy said:

Sandy in the UK under the Accredited Breeder Scheme all litters registered should have Eye Certificates for both sire and dam. The KC also strongly recommends they follow the breed club advice re SM and MVD.

In practice many experienced breeders consider the ABS to be a waste of time. Consequently when trying to locate a particular dog on the KC Health Test site we draw a blank.

Click to expand...

I've talked to enough ophthalmologist to know that THEY have seen very noticeable improvements in the canine eyes because breeders have been utilizing CERF.
I've talked to two cardios that have stated that they have seen improvements in cavalier hearts, because of the testing and tracking that has been done.
I have yet to talk to a neuro that can tell me whether or not to breed a dog unless it is showing symptoms.
I bred two cavaliers that had been MRI'd. I followed the SM protocol and got 2 pups WITH symptomatic SM.
1. I was told not to breed the symptomatic SM pups-- well, that was a no brainer.
2. I asked what to do about my bitch-- he said, "never breed those two cavaliers together again". I spay the female-- didn't want to go through that again.
There aren't enough answers for me to fully jump on the MRI bandwagon. I am afraid that it is going to give people a false sense of security.

Ironically, I know of a woman who had a bitch get an MVD murmur-- dx by echo at age 2. She just turned 11 1/2 and her murmur just got upgraded to a grade III. I just wanted to mention this because I would panic if I had a young dog get a murmur.

Sorry to hear you followed the protocol and bred 2 puppies with symptomatic SM.

WoodHaven said:

There aren't enough answers for me to fully jump on the MRI bandwagon. I am afraid that it is going to give people a false sense of security.

Click to expand...

I don't think MRI's do give people a false sense of security, prospective puppy buyers who seek pup's from SM scanned parents have obviously done their research so will have the breeders who MRI scan and understand that breeding/buying a puppy from 2 parents scanned 'clear' of SM doesn not mean puppies guaranteed free of SM, and that in purchasing/breeding Cavaliers with 'clear' SM scans they are still playing Russian roulette.

I really am sorry to hear about your pup's with SM, for me myself I'm not ready to jump off the MRI bandwagon.

May I ask what SM breeding protocol you now follow and suggest?

WoodHaven said:

I have yet to talk to a neuro that can tell me whether or not to breed a dog unless it is showing symptoms..

Click to expand...

I cannot quite understand what you mean here, can you clarify?

WoodHaven said:

I bred two cavaliers that had been MRI'd. I followed the SM protocol and got 2 pups WITH symptomatic SM. .

Click to expand...

There sometimes appears to be the SM guidelines as approved by the neurologists at the International Conference in 2006, and a watered down version that is used by breeders.

The breeders version will involve using cavaliers that were MRI scanned before they are 2.5 years ( Grade C, if no SM ) and mating them to unscanned dogs ( Grade D, but only if really not showing symptoms )THIS IS NOT TO THE SM PROTOCOL.

Then there is the two underage dogs ( Grade C mated to Grade C )THIS IS NOT TO THE SM PROTOCOL

I'm not suggesting that this is the case with your breeding, you may be one of those that did a Grade A x Grade A mating and was just very unlucky.
It would certainly help this discussion if you would tell us if the MRI'd cavaliers that produced your 2 pups with symptomatic SM were both scanned, and bred, after the age of 2.5 years?

WoodHaven said:

There aren't enough answers for me to fully jump on the MRI bandwagon. I am afraid that it is going to give people a false sense of security. .

Click to expand...

You underestimate people.

WoodHaven said:

Ironically, I know of a woman who had a bitch get an MVD murmur-- dx by echo at age 2. She just turned 11 1/2 and her murmur just got upgraded to a grade III. I just wanted to mention this because I would panic if I had a young dog get a murmur.

Click to expand...

There are always exceptions and we could all quote them in a way that will suggest that testing is useless.
Any health testing scheme is a blunt instrument but until we have the magic gene tests they are all we have to protect the breed.

I have read that the average time from first sign of heart murmur to CHF is four years and that has roughly been my experience.

I am sure that many people will tell me about long lived, early onset MVD, dogs such as you have mentioned above. It is less likely that breeders will talk about the other end of the spectrum, the young dogs that died within a few weeks of murmur being detected.

Clairelou said:

Sorry to hear you followed the protocol and bred 2 puppies with symptomatic SM.



I don't think MRI's do give people a false sense of security, prospective puppy buyers who seek pup's from SM scanned parents have obviously done their research so will have the breeders who MRI scan and understand that breeding/buying a puppy from 2 parents scanned 'clear' of SM doesn not mean puppies guaranteed free of SM, and that in purchasing/breeding Cavaliers with 'clear' SM scans they are still playing Russian roulette.

I really am sorry to hear about your pup's with SM, for me myself I'm not ready to jump off the MRI bandwagon.

May I ask what SM breeding protocol you now follow and suggest?

Click to expand...

As someone who has done the testing and gotten bitten in the bum-- Yes, it was a false sense of security going into that total outcross breeding. The COI for that litter was very low-- I thought, I won't be able to double up on nasty genes and BAM.
The only dogs I've technically bred in the last two years were fully tested MRI'd co owns. One of which will be bred again next week. And yes, I am the one telling them to tell everyone that great health tests guarantee "nothing''.

Margaret C said:

I cannot quite understand what you mean here, can you clarify?



There sometimes appears to be the SM guidelines as approved by the neurologists at the International Conference in 2006, and a watered down version that is used by breeders.

The breeders version will involve using cavaliers that were MRI scanned before they are 2.5 years ( Grade C, if no SM ) and mating them to unscanned dogs ( Grade D, but only if really not showing symptoms )THIS IS NOT TO THE SM PROTOCOL.

Then there is the two underage dogs ( Grade C mated to Grade C )THIS IS NOT TO THE SM PROTOCOL

I'm not suggesting that this is the case with your breeding, you may be one of those that did a Grade A x Grade A mating and was just very unlucky.
It would certainly help this discussion if you would tell us if the MRI'd cavaliers that produced your 2 pups with symptomatic SM were both scanned, and bred, after the age of 2.5 years?



You underestimate people.





There are always exceptions and we could all quote them in a way that will suggest that testing is useless.
Any health testing scheme is a blunt instrument but until we have the magic gene tests they are all we have to protect the breed.

I have read that the average time from first sign of heart murmur to CHF is four years and that has roughly been my experience.

I am sure that many people will tell me about long lived, early onset MVD, dogs such as you have mentioned above. It is less likely that breeders will talk about the other end of the spectrum, the young dogs that died within a few weeks of murmur being detected.

Click to expand...

When a dog is asymptomatic for SM yet has syrinxes-- do you breed them?? Once, Never... As apposed to if a dog has early onset MVD-- WE DON'T breed it. Crowding of the brain at the occipital open -- do you breed it... how much is too much. There seems like there is a lot more 'grey area' when it comes to this.

My bitch was 31 months when MRI'd-- the sire was over 5 years old when MRI'd-- THIS breeding was following the protocol.

No, I don't underestimate people. "some'' People overestimate the value of testing thinking that it will lead somewhere it may not. My vet had two OFA excellent hipped dogs give birth to 3 puppies that were all dysplastic. I don't want people to overbreed a stud dog thinking 'he's clear, its all good' - because rarely does that happen.

I have seen dogs that got murmurs early that died mid teens of something else. I've also heard of dogs that get a murmur at 5 1/2 and are dead before 7.

WoodHaven said:

have yet to talk to a neuro that can tell me whether or not to breed a dog unless it is showing symptoms...

Click to expand...

WoodHaven said:

When a dog is asymptomatic for SM yet has syrinxes-- do you breed them?? Once, Never... As apposed to if a dog has early onset MVD-- WE DON'T breed it. Crowding of the brain at the occipital open -- do you breed it... how much is too much. There seems like there is a lot more 'grey area' when it comes to this..

Click to expand...

Yes, syringomyelia is an enormously complex condition with a great many grey areas. Unfortunately there are no easy answers & that is something nobody can change, so we just have to get on with it.
It is unrealistic to expect answers from researchers before there has been enough time or information to be able to get to any conclusions.

It is only since PDE was aired last year that breeders have been MRI'ing in any significant numbers in the UK. It will take a few generations of cavaliers bred with strict adherence to the SM protocol before we know how well it is working ( although the experience of the Dutch breeders suggests that it should make a considerable difference)

The SM guidelines allow for affected older cavaliers without symptoms to be used for breeding because of the threat to genetic diversity if all affected dogs were removed from the gene pool.
Nobody has to use such a dog, it is the breeders decision, and I think common sense would say that a grade D dog is probably not such a good breeding prospect as Grade A

WoodHaven said:

My bitch was 31 months when MRI'd-- the sire was over 5 years old when MRI'd-- THIS breeding was following the protocol. .

Click to expand...

Then you were very unlucky, but it does not mean that the guidelines are wrong, they make it clear that the protocol is not something that will guarantee SM free litters of puppies.

WoodHaven said:

No, I don't underestimate people. "some'' People overestimate the value of testing thinking that it will lead somewhere it may not. My vet had two OFA excellent hipped dogs give birth to 3 puppies that were all dysplastic. I don't want people to overbreed a stud dog thinking 'he's clear, its all good' - because rarely does that happen..

Click to expand...

In my experience dogs are being overbred here but it is not because breeders think they are clear. They just like the puppies that are produced.

The APGAW Report recommends limiting the use of stud dogs. That would be a solution to both concerns

I never expected the specialists to pin point exactly the right way to go.. But I don't think we should all go blindly down one alley because some experts "think' it might be the way. THERE is wayy to much grey.

I did my first group of SM MRI's 4.5 YEARS ago... That program did NOTHING to change my view. NOTHING

ALL you have to do is have some people PROVE that it works and people will follow, but unlucky or not-- I didn't have symptomatic SM before and following the protocol-100% in one litter. Nature is a cruel taskmaster.

You don't know the genes carried for the A-- the A can have MORE negative genes, more detrimental genes than the D. It is a guess at this point.

HSUS wants to do away with ALL breeding. I don't think the American public will put up with it. IF you make this loved HOBBY too much for breeders, they will walk away. My accountant thinks I am NUTS now--- I could have gone on a Mediterranean cruise on what I spent on my dogs last year or two. I am seriously thinking of quiting the breeding part. IF all I had to do was BUY a dog and show it... THAT would be much less stressful.

Margaret C said:

It will take a few generations of cavaliers bred with strict adherence to the SM protocol before we know how well it is working ( although the experience of the Dutch breeders suggests that it should make a considerable difference)

Click to expand...

Yes let the protocol be given the time it needs, let it be put into action over generations before it is dissed as not working.

Clairelou said:

Yes let the protocol be given the time it needs, let it be put into action over generations before it is dissed as not working.

Click to expand...

And if it works over the course of a few generations-- then people will jump on. Right now- there are mixed results.

My boy was MRI'd -- his parents were MRI'd, the parents sires were MRI'd, one of the sires of one of these were MRI'd.
The boy was just bred to a female that was MRI'd-- these pups have 7 direct individual ancestors that have passed MRI's(not including siblings and uncles that were also-- trying to think non linear).
CAN you see that:
I understand the waiting and testing

WoodHaven said:

And if it works over the course of a few generations-- then people will jump on. Right now- there are mixed results.

My boy was MRI'd -- his parents were MRI'd, the parents sires were MRI'd, one of the sires of one of these were MRI'd.
The boy was just bred to a female that was MRI'd-- these pups have 7 direct individual ancestors that have passed MRI's(not including siblings and uncles that were also-- trying to think non linear).
CAN you see that:
I understand the waiting and testing

Click to expand...

Are some of these retrospective scans?. I am asking because all of those scans could not have been done after dogs were 2.5 years, and still get so many generations into a 4.5 year time scan.

Nobody would be surprised if an individual breeder had this result if testing for MVD or MRD, it is accepted that the problems can show up after generations of 'clear' results.
Would you stop testing heart and eyes in those circumstances?

But I don't think we should all go blindly down one alley because some experts "think' it might be the way. THERE is wayy to much grey.

Click to expand...

What would you think we should be doing instead? That is a question I would really like some of the anti-scanning breeders to answer.

IF you make this loved HOBBY too much for breeders, they will walk away.

Click to expand...

There are hobbies where you have a good day out, you come back and you put your golf club in the cupboard or your stamp albums back on the shelf........ Sorted until next time.

Hobbies that involve living breathing animals means the hobbyist is responsible for their welfare every day, in everything they do with, or for, them.

If MRI scanning to give cavaliers a healthy future is too much for some breeders, then it is best that they do walk away.

I have been working with progeny of dogs that HAD scans done on their sires etc. previously-- "I" didn't do them all-- Can I guarantee that they were all done after 2 1/2-- NO-- because 4 1/2 years ago -- THAT hadn't been established. I believe one or two of the dogs were 2 when scanned.
This line of breeding has been more consistant for clears (some with mild crowding).

Would I rather breed a bitch to a older dog that has NEVER thrown a known case of SM or breed a dog that has SM in his roots but is clear???
I wanted to use a dog that was 11-- MVD clear, never having thrown a symptomatic or known asymptomatic case of SM--- This breeder refused my MRI'd clear bitch because: THERE WAS A KNOWN NOTORIOUS dog way back in her pedigree that HAD SM.

My point was-- IF a hobby becames too arduous-- it ceases to be -- there will only be professional breeders, illegal breeders etc... to fill the demand.

IF I believed that MRIing was the end all, be all-- I'd jump on that bandwagon--- A DNA test-- YES -- a picture that could change in the matter of months -- URGHHH..

AND this isn't like MVD-- we hope to AVOID SM completely. YOU can't avoid ageing of the heart (it will likely always be here).

I OFA hips-- IT is done once and it is a pretty conclusive picture. There is no, try it again after 2 1/2 and maybe even again after 5.

WoodHaven said:

My point was-- IF a hobby becames too arduous-- it ceases to be -- there will only be professional breeders, illegal breeders etc... to fill the demand..

Click to expand...

I understand your point.
My point is that those hobby breeders have a responsibility to the dogs they own and the future of that breed.
There is, and has been for quite some years, hobby breeders that have shown they are up to that challenge. Those that cannot face that challenge are best walking away.

WoodHaven said:

IF I believed that MRIing was the end all, be all-- I'd jump on that bandwagon--- A DNA test-- YES -- a picture that could change in the matter of months -- URGHHH..

Click to expand...

I do not believe there can be any health test that is the Be All, End All.

The DNA test is dependent on MRI information. Not enough MRIs, we will continue to wait for the gene test.

And while we wait? You still have not said what you think we should do instead?

WoodHaven said:

AND this isn't like MVD-- we hope to AVOID SM completely. YOU can't avoid ageing of the heart (it will likely always be here)

I OFA hips-- IT is done once and it is a pretty conclusive picture. There is no, try it again after 2 1/2 and maybe even again after 5.

Click to expand...

That is probably a completely unrealistic hope. This condition is like MVD in that a dog scanned clear at 2.5 may have a syrinx at 5. A dog clear at 7 may have SM at 11 years.
Pushing back the age of onset is what we need to do, and if it is necessary to scan more than once, then there is no magic wand that will make that fact go away.