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  1. #1
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    I hope I will be allowed to Reply to Norma Inglis' Breed Notes in the UK Cavalier Web Site.

    First of all I would like to say it was lovely to see the Photo of Sasha, and that there is I don't think in the Cavalier world ,even although I am only Cavalier Pet Owner knows more about how Cavaliers can live to a normal Old Age, since I have been collecting the Ages of Long Lived Cavaliers for many years now.

    There are around 2,000 names and ages of Cavaliers 12 years upwards,along with the names of their Sires and Dams, and their Ages as well if I was able to find out about them ,held at the Kennel Club Library ,London.

    If I could explain to others on this List who might read this Post, the Reason why I started doing this ,was because our Mags Lived to 15 with no sign of Heart Trouble ,and yet some of our other Cavaliers had died at young age because of Heart Trouble.

    I was able to check Mag's pedigree with our Cherry-Pie's Pedigree , Cherry Pie developed a Heart Murmur at 3 .5 Years, yet she lived to 13, but had many Long Lived Cavaliers in her Pedigree Back- Ground, .

    I contacted Dr Kvart ,a Cardiologist in Sweden ,asking if it was possible ,that if a Cavalier did have a Heart Problem ,if there were a number of Long Lived Ancestors in the Pedigree Back-Ground ,that Cavalier Could have a Better Chance of a Longer Life.

    He replied back ,yes ,that was right.

    That was why I started to collect the Ages of Long Lived Cavaliers ,thinking Cavalier Breeders might be interested to know about this List for their Cavalier Breeding Progams.

    Put information in Cavalier Magazines and Dog News-Papers about this and saying Cavalier Breeders to contact me if they wanted any information, Guess What ,I am still waiting for a Cavalier Breed to contact me !!!

    I feel N.Inglis' attack on Cavalier Pet Owners in her Breed Notes is uncalled for, we Cavalier Pet Owners would all love our Cavaliers to be given the Chance to have Healthy ,Long Lives.

    Here is my suggestion to N. Inglis ,since she wants Cavalier Pet Owners to support Cavalier Breeders, .

    Have a List where Cavalier Pet Owners can see the Cavaliers who have been Health Tested.

    That buyers of Cavaliers are automatically given a Health Certificate when they buy a Cavalier, so that Proof is given that the Breeder has carried out Health Tests on their Breeding Stock.

    That Cavalier Breeders abide by the UK CKCS CLUB Breeding Guidelines, and there is evidence given about this.

    This is what the Cavalier Pet Owners want ,not Spin.

    So you Cavalier Breeders who believe in what N. Inglis says ,the Ball as they Say in your Court.

    Listen to Cavalier Pet Owners as to what they want.

    That way our Cavalier Breed has ,I believe the Chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.

    We all know that Health Tests won't guarantee this, but at least Cavalier Pet Owners will know that they are dealing with a Cavalier Breeder who is trying.
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  2. #2
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    What Norma wrote was:
    But pet owners get behind the breeders and give them the support and encouragement to carry on. That way, together, the breed will flourish.
    I honestly didn't interpret this as an attack on pet owners Bet.
    It is what it is......a request to support and encourage breeders.Nothing more,nothing less.
    A lot of pet owners on CT have bought cavaliers in the last few weeks from health focused show breeders and others are currently in the process of buying.Don't we all want to turn our backs on Puppy farmers and those who compromise their animals' welfare for financial gain?
    There's nothing confrontational or controversial in the notes at all.
    It's wonderful to see a photo of a living,breathing cavalier of 17 years and eight months...even better that she has some teenage offspring trotting around.A long lived cavalier is a treasure Bet,let her have her moment in the sun.It's certainly brought a smile to many of us on a dull miserable winter's morning.
    Sins

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    Default In Reply.

    Sins,

    The purpose of my Post is to give other Cavaliers like Sasha ,the chance of Healther ,Longer Lives.

    They don't all come from Puppy Farms.

    I have said this before ,and here goes again ,why all the Hand Ringing now from some Cavalier Breeders about the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed ,.

    The Cardiologist said at the recent UK CKCS CLUB AGM 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age,that this is no better than it was 18 ,yes 18 years ago.!

    What have those Cavalier Breeders been doing ,since they were warned over 25 years ago about the MVD Problem.

    The Cavalier Pet Owners can't be being blamed for this, so......
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Some breeder are trying really hard though Bet, harleys breeder did her best he has a very good heart, her two were two when she bred them, and show (even now) no signs of hd, or cm, and his great grandfather who she also had was 14, the good thing is she isnt breeding from them anymore, she can do no more. di
    What's the difference between a new husband and a new dog? After a year, the dog is still excited to see you.

  5. #5
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    Bet,
    I'm not disputing the figures quoted by you or disagreeing that the breed is in a significant degree of trouble.You have direct experience of the breed spanning decades and I have not!
    But I would like to see the new statistics obtained this year from the heart testing at the cavalier shows.I think it would offer a decent snapshot of what's happening in the showworld today across a range of kennels and ages.
    There are breeders out there who have low incidences of early onset MVD.
    This clearly didn't happen overnight,but must have resulted from planning and effort?
    I just think the word "attack" isn't the right word used to describe what Norma wrote.What was written was measured and moderate.
    You were recently accused of "attacking" a dog. I came late to the threads and saw the end and imagined it had been savaged by a wolf or a pack of dingoes...I was amused to read it was in fact a wild bolshie that had "attacked" it...
    Now of course it clearly wasn't an attack on the dog at all....
    the word "attack" is something bandied about all too often and too freely.
    All I'm saying is that we all need to keep a sense of perspective about things...
    Sins

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    But educated pet owners ARE supporting the breed and the health testing breeders by purchasing pups from breeders who do the recommended health tests?!
    Mum to Tallulah (blenheim)
    Three Precious Cavalier Angels in Heaven, until we meet again girls...xxx

  7. #7
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    Bet always seems to be asking the same question - 'what are breeders doing to improve MVD' and yet the breeders on CC and at shows are all heart checking their dogs, and are taking it seriously. Bet, - just let's put all this into a time perspective for example:
    Say I'm new to breeding - I've got a bitch who is 2.5yrs + old - her parents are heart clear and 5yrs or over, and I want to mate her for the first time. I use a clear dog who is say 5yrs old.

    3 yrs later - I have a daughter of the bitch I mated and she is clear and I decide to mate her.

    So three years from now, I am only on my first generation (yes from clear dogs) but it takes time!!!!!!!

    It's no good going on and on week after week, month after month asking the same question - 'What are breeders doing'

    Hopefully they are beginning to get to the stage where more clear dogs are being bred from, and maybe in 10yrs+ time, and that will only be 3 or 3.5 generations or therabouts there will be an improvement; and in 20yrs - ie 6 - 7 generations time if the protocol is stuck to there will be even more improvement. But you are talking about a long time after that before heart problems will be a thing of the past because you can't breed someting out in just a few generations (unless the genes can be found, and they are for example straight forward recessives) so give these people a break! I believe they are the only way forward!

    Sorry to go on - but if these people get peed off and stop breeding - I'd like to see the BYB's and puppy farmers doing a good job (NOT)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkysue View Post
    ... Hopefully they are beginning to get to the stage where more clear dogs are being bred from, and maybe in 10yrs+ time, and that will only be 3 or 3.5 generations or therabouts there will be an improvement; and in 20yrs - ie 6 - 7 generations time if the protocol is stuck to there will be even more improvement. But you are talking about a long time after that before heart problems will be a thing of the past because you can't breed someting out in just a few generations (unless the genes can be found, and they are for example straight forward recessives) so give these people a break! I believe they are the only way forward! ...
    Dear Yorkysue: You have overlooked one important point, which is that the MVD breeding protocol was introduced in 1998, eleven years ago. If these breeders you refer to had started their ten year program ten years ago, then think how far the breed could have progressed towards eliminating early-onset MVD.

    It should not take eleven years to get their attention.
    --
    Rod Russell

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    Quote Originally Posted by RodRussell View Post
    Dear Yorkysue: You have overlooked one important point, which is that the MVD breeding protocol was introduced in 1998, eleven years ago. If these breeders you refer to had started their ten year program ten years ago, then think how far the breed could have progressed towards eliminating early-onset MVD.

    It should not take eleven years to get their attention.
    --
    Rod Russell
    I've been in cavaliers for almost 10 years-- I wanted to learn, get mentors etc,... before considering breeding
    1st litter was 5.5 years ago--Kept one to showed her, tested her -- she is infertile(also HEART CLEAR past 5 and MRI clear). If you only breed occasionally You could be in 'cavaliers' almost a decade and not bred more than one or two of your own breeding. I have one co-owned that I bred that hopefully has his second litter on the way.
    I am breeding my first homebred girl this week.
    Last edited by WoodHaven; 23rd November 2009 at 05:07 PM.

  10. #10
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    Rod, I'm not saying everything is perfect, and I'm aware that MVD has been in the breed for decades - but why keep harping on about what has happened in the past (Boring Boring!) You can't turn back time. Why keep beating people up about it - move on.

    I want to concentrate on what is happening now - and in the future.

    Sandy's point is very pertinent - If you are a hobby breeder, and many show people are, then if a bitch misses a mating, or the pup you keep has health problems at 2yrs old (even if from clear stock) then it's back to the drawing board.

    It's no good having a go at the people who are trying - Look on CC at the Telvara bitch from a small show kennel of long lived dogs - this is fantasitc, but to put it all into context, a small breeder (number wise)or even a fair number of small breeders cannot change the face of the breed when thousands of pups are bred indiscriminately each year by commercial outlets who don't care.

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