In Reply

I hope I will be allowed to Reply to Norma Inglis' Breed Notes in the UK Cavalier Web Site.

First of all I would like to say it was lovely to see the Photo of Sasha, and that there is I don't think in the Cavalier world ,even although I am only Cavalier Pet Owner knows more about how Cavaliers can live to a normal Old Age, since I have been collecting the Ages of Long Lived Cavaliers for many years now.

There are around 2,000 names and ages of Cavaliers 12 years upwards,along with the names of their Sires and Dams, and their Ages as well if I was able to find out about them ,held at the Kennel Club Library ,London.

If I could explain to others on this List who might read this Post, the Reason why I started doing this ,was because our Mags Lived to 15 with no sign of Heart Trouble ,and yet some of our other Cavaliers had died at young age because of Heart Trouble.

I was able to check Mag's pedigree with our Cherry-Pie's Pedigree , Cherry Pie developed a Heart Murmur at 3 .5 Years, yet she lived to 13, but had many Long Lived Cavaliers in her Pedigree Back- Ground, .

I contacted Dr Kvart ,a Cardiologist in Sweden ,asking if it was possible ,that if a Cavalier did have a Heart Problem ,if there were a number of Long Lived Ancestors in the Pedigree Back-Ground ,that Cavalier Could have a Better Chance of a Longer Life.

He replied back ,yes ,that was right.

That was why I started to collect the Ages of Long Lived Cavaliers ,thinking Cavalier Breeders might be interested to know about this List for their Cavalier Breeding Progams.

Put information in Cavalier Magazines and Dog News-Papers about this and saying Cavalier Breeders to contact me if they wanted any information, Guess What ,I am still waiting for a Cavalier Breed to contact me !!!

I feel N.Inglis' attack on Cavalier Pet Owners in her Breed Notes is uncalled for, we Cavalier Pet Owners would all love our Cavaliers to be given the Chance to have Healthy ,Long Lives.

Here is my suggestion to N. Inglis ,since she wants Cavalier Pet Owners to support Cavalier Breeders, .

Have a List where Cavalier Pet Owners can see the Cavaliers who have been Health Tested.

That buyers of Cavaliers are automatically given a Health Certificate when they buy a Cavalier, so that Proof is given that the Breeder has carried out Health Tests on their Breeding Stock.

That Cavalier Breeders abide by the UK CKCS CLUB Breeding Guidelines, and there is evidence given about this.

This is what the Cavalier Pet Owners want ,not Spin.

So you Cavalier Breeders who believe in what N. Inglis says ,the Ball as they Say in your Court.

Listen to Cavalier Pet Owners as to what they want.

That way our Cavalier Breed has ,I believe the Chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.

We all know that Health Tests won't guarantee this, but at least Cavalier Pet Owners will know that they are dealing with a Cavalier Breeder who is trying.

What Norma wrote was:

But pet owners get behind the breeders and give them the support and encouragement to carry on. That way, together, the breed will flourish.

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I honestly didn't interpret this as an attack on pet owners Bet.
It is what it is......a request to support and encourage breeders.Nothing more,nothing less.
A lot of pet owners on CT have bought cavaliers in the last few weeks from health focused show breeders and others are currently in the process of buying.Don't we all want to turn our backs on Puppy farmers and those who compromise their animals' welfare for financial gain?
There's nothing confrontational or controversial in the notes at all.
It's wonderful to see a photo of a living,breathing cavalier of 17 years and eight months...even better that she has some teenage offspring trotting around.A long lived cavalier is a treasure Bet,let her have her moment in the sun.It's certainly brought a smile to many of us on a dull miserable winter's morning.
Sins

In Reply.

Sins,

The purpose of my Post is to give other Cavaliers like Sasha ,the chance of Healther ,Longer Lives.

They don't all come from Puppy Farms.

I have said this before ,and here goes again ,why all the Hand Ringing now from some Cavalier Breeders about the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed ,.

The Cardiologist said at the recent UK CKCS CLUB AGM 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age,that this is no better than it was 18 ,yes 18 years ago.!

What have those Cavalier Breeders been doing ,since they were warned over 25 years ago about the MVD Problem.

The Cavalier Pet Owners can't be being blamed for this, so......

Some breeder are trying really hard though Bet, harleys breeder did her best he has a very good heart, her two were two when she bred them, and show (even now) no signs of hd, or cm, and his great grandfather who she also had was 14, the good thing is she isnt breeding from them anymore, she can do no more. di

Bet,
I'm not disputing the figures quoted by you or disagreeing that the breed is in a significant degree of trouble.You have direct experience of the breed spanning decades and I have not!
But I would like to see the new statistics obtained this year from the heart testing at the cavalier shows.I think it would offer a decent snapshot of what's happening in the showworld today across a range of kennels and ages.
There are breeders out there who have low incidences of early onset MVD.
This clearly didn't happen overnight,but must have resulted from planning and effort?
I just think the word "attack" isn't the right word used to describe what Norma wrote.What was written was measured and moderate.
You were recently accused of "attacking" a dog. I came late to the threads and saw the end and imagined it had been savaged by a wolf or a pack of dingoes...I was amused to read it was in fact a wild bolshie that had "attacked" it...
Now of course it clearly wasn't an attack on the dog at all....
the word "attack" is something bandied about all too often and too freely.
All I'm saying is that we all need to keep a sense of perspective about things...
Sins

But educated pet owners ARE supporting the breed and the health testing breeders by purchasing pups from breeders who do the recommended health tests?!

Bet always seems to be asking the same question - 'what are breeders doing to improve MVD' and yet the breeders on CC and at shows are all heart checking their dogs, and are taking it seriously. Bet, - just let's put all this into a time perspective for example:
Say I'm new to breeding - I've got a bitch who is 2.5yrs + old - her parents are heart clear and 5yrs or over, and I want to mate her for the first time. I use a clear dog who is say 5yrs old.

3 yrs later - I have a daughter of the bitch I mated and she is clear and I decide to mate her.

So three years from now, I am only on my first generation (yes from clear dogs) but it takes time!!!!!!!

It's no good going on and on week after week, month after month asking the same question - 'What are breeders doing'

Hopefully they are beginning to get to the stage where more clear dogs are being bred from, and maybe in 10yrs+ time, and that will only be 3 or 3.5 generations or therabouts there will be an improvement; and in 20yrs - ie 6 - 7 generations time if the protocol is stuck to there will be even more improvement. But you are talking about a long time after that before heart problems will be a thing of the past because you can't breed someting out in just a few generations (unless the genes can be found, and they are for example straight forward recessives) so give these people a break! I believe they are the only way forward!

Sorry to go on - but if these people get peed off and stop breeding - I'd like to see the BYB's and puppy farmers doing a good job (NOT)

Yorkysue said:

... Hopefully they are beginning to get to the stage where more clear dogs are being bred from, and maybe in 10yrs+ time, and that will only be 3 or 3.5 generations or therabouts there will be an improvement; and in 20yrs - ie 6 - 7 generations time if the protocol is stuck to there will be even more improvement. But you are talking about a long time after that before heart problems will be a thing of the past because you can't breed someting out in just a few generations (unless the genes can be found, and they are for example straight forward recessives) so give these people a break! I believe they are the only way forward! ...

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Dear Yorkysue: You have overlooked one important point, which is that the MVD breeding protocol was introduced in 1998, eleven years ago. If these breeders you refer to had started their ten year program ten years ago, then think how far the breed could have progressed towards eliminating early-onset MVD.

It should not take eleven years to get their attention.
--
Rod Russell

RodRussell said:

Dear Yorkysue: You have overlooked one important point, which is that the MVD breeding protocol was introduced in 1998, eleven years ago. If these breeders you refer to had started their ten year program ten years ago, then think how far the breed could have progressed towards eliminating early-onset MVD.

It should not take eleven years to get their attention.
--
Rod Russell

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I've been in cavaliers for almost 10 years-- I wanted to learn, get mentors etc,... before considering breeding
1st litter was 5.5 years ago--Kept one to showed her, tested her -- she is infertile(also HEART CLEAR past 5 and MRI clear). If you only breed occasionally You could be in 'cavaliers' almost a decade and not bred more than one or two of your own breeding. I have one co-owned that I bred that hopefully has his second litter on the way.
I am breeding my first homebred girl this week.

Rod, I'm not saying everything is perfect, and I'm aware that MVD has been in the breed for decades - but why keep harping on about what has happened in the past (Boring Boring!) You can't turn back time. Why keep beating people up about it - move on.

I want to concentrate on what is happening now - and in the future.

Sandy's point is very pertinent - If you are a hobby breeder, and many show people are, then if a bitch misses a mating, or the pup you keep has health problems at 2yrs old (even if from clear stock) then it's back to the drawing board.

It's no good having a go at the people who are trying - Look on CC at the Telvara bitch from a small show kennel of long lived dogs - this is fantasitc, but to put it all into context, a small breeder (number wise)or even a fair number of small breeders cannot change the face of the breed when thousands of pups are bred indiscriminately each year by commercial outlets who don't care.

In Reply.

Could I ask Yorkie Sue,

How would she answer the Chairman of the UK CKCS CLUB's this mention on Rod's Web Site,

"There are many Members who are still not prepared to Health Check their Breeding Stock,and of those who do ,it would appear that many would not hesitate to Breed from Affected Animals."

Yorkysue said:

Rod, I'm not saying everything is perfect, and I'm aware that MVD has been in the breed for decades - but why keep harping on about what has happened in the past (Boring Boring!) You can't turn back time. Why keep beating people up about it - move on.

I want to concentrate on what is happening now - and in the future.

Sandy's point is very pertinent - If you are a hobby breeder, and many show people are, then if a bitch misses a mating, or the pup you keep has health problems at 2yrs old (even if from clear stock) then it's back to the drawing board.

It's no good having a go at the people who are trying - Look on CC at the Telvara bitch from a small show kennel of long lived dogs - this is fantasitc, but to put it all into context, a small breeder (number wise)or even a fair number of small breeders cannot change the face of the breed when thousands of pups are bred indiscriminately each year by commercial outlets who don't care.

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The puppy farmers are always being used as an excuse for so called responsible breeders to go their own way and 'adjust' the breeding protocols to suit their own convenience

What do you suggest we should do? Wait for the puppy farmers to have a change of heart?

I have owned cavaliers since 1976, and I believe that if we do not learn from the mistakes we made in the past, and I made as many as anyone else, then we will not change what is happening now, and the future will be very bleak for this breed.

The only place to start is with the cavalier club breeders that say they are true lovers of the breed. After all, if they cannot put their own plans on hold to work for the good of all cavaliers, then how can we expect to influence any change in the more commercial breeders.

Nobody is pretending that the protocols are not draconian, but that is the price the current breeders are paying for the mistakes made in the last decades. We pay it or the cavaliers suffer.

It is lovely to hear about the dear little 17 year old, and I would like to think there will be a lot more 17 year old glamour girls in the years to come, but my worry is there is more likely to be casualties such as the five year old cavalier with SM that was euthanized this week.

Seventeen year old cavaliers are not a proof that cavaliers as a breed have longevity. It is the average age of the breed as a whole that gives the true picture.
My eleven and a half year old has a sibling that died at six, but most breeders conveniently forget the puppies they breed that die that young.
Show me a whole litter that survive beyond thirteen and then I will be truly impressed.

Cavalier Club members should be leading by example. They should be breeding to the protocols and then saying to the Kennel Club, we are doing everything we are advised to do to produce healthy puppies, now show that you are also willing to do something by making KC registration a gold standard where only the best breeders are accepted.

In the Breed Record Supplement the well known show breeders, that continue to produce 5 litters each quarter, are still using underage dogs and bitches and still doing back to back matings as a matter of course.
I know there is a difference of opinion about this practice in UK & USA but, while our Code of Good Practice says these things should not be done, how can we criticise other non-club breeders.

Despite the fact that these commercial show breeders are putting two fingers up at breeding protocols they are being suggested as suitable candidates to stand for the Cavalier Club Committee.
Another of my AGM proposals will be that anyone nominated for the Club committee signifies their willingness to breed only to the Club protocols while a member of that committee.

I know there is a lot of good breeders out there, unfortunately they keep their heads down and let those that do not have the compassion to imagine what it is like to be the owner of a suffering dog, or even the dog itself unable to communicate it's pain, act as their self appointed representatives.

Thank you Margaret for your Succinct Reply,..

I so agree ,that is the Breeding of Cavaliers in the Past ,that is causing the Suffering in to-days Cavaliers.

I have mentioned how I have collected the Ages of Long Lived Cavaliers ,around 2,000, it was great to see some Cavaliers who had lived to 15-16- 17- even 18 ,and Tuppence ,19 years 4 months and 3 weeks.

Those Cavaliers out of the 2,000 were very few, Iv'e had a quick Check, and I don't think there would be 100.

So just because there are some Cavaliers who do live well into Old Age like Sasha, and it was lovely to see her, mean that most Cavaliers do.

I believe the average Life Span for a Cavalier , according to Bruce Fogle in his Book , mentioned just over 10 years of age.

I know that there are a number of Cavalier Breeders who are trying their Best to Breed Healthy Cavaliers, but for others ,is it only Lip Service they are giving to the Breed.

As an example Look what Happened at the Last UK CKCS CLUB AGM, I might be wrong about this ,but was the Proposal by the Club Committee to have Breeding Guidelines for SM not Thawrted by a few Vociferious Members, and it took a Petition by Cavalier Pet Owners to have this Proposal discussed at a Liason Meeting.

I do think that as Margaret says,Cavalier Committee Members ,should lead by Example.

Yorkysue said:

Rod, I'm not saying everything is perfect, and I'm aware that MVD has been in the breed for decades - but why keep harping on about what has happened in the past (Boring Boring!) You can't turn back time. Why keep beating people up about it - move on.

I want to concentrate on what is happening now - and in the future.

Sandy's point is very pertinent - If you are a hobby breeder, and many show people are, then if a bitch misses a mating, or the pup you keep has health problems at 2yrs old (even if from clear stock) then it's back to the drawing board.

It's no good having a go at the people who are trying - Look on CC at the Telvara bitch from a small show kennel of long lived dogs - this is fantasitc, but to put it all into context, a small breeder (number wise)or even a fair number of small breeders cannot change the face of the breed when thousands of pups are bred indiscriminately each year by commercial outlets who don't care.

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What I don't understand, Yorkysue, is why anyone who is trying thinks those bringing health issues to light and asking for protocols to be followed are having a go at them? I don't get that. Can you explain?

Yorkysue said:

Rod, I'm not saying everything is perfect, and I'm aware that MVD has been in the breed for decades - but why keep harping on about what has happened in the past (Boring Boring!) You can't turn back time. Why keep beating people up about it - move on.

I want to concentrate on what is happening now - and in the future. ...

It's no good having a go at the people who are trying ...

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Dear Yorkysue: Please forgive me for boring you. It's the last thing I had intended to do. And, rest assured that I do not "have a go at people who are trying". I focus on the ones who aren't trying.

I have found that past behaviors often predict future conduct, and I see nothing in the present or future which points to any better adherence to the MVD breeding protocol. Nearly all breeders still recoil at waiting until a bitch is 2.5 years of age to breed her, and nearly all also flatly ignore whether the bitch's parents were murmur-free at age 5 years. And as for males, well, most are sent into the ring long before they reach even 24 months, much less 2.5 years. Those are the guts of the MVD breeding protocol, and those guts are completely discounted by nearly all Cavalier breeders.

As Bet has pointed out today in this thread, just this year, the chairman of the UK Cavalier Club stated:

"There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals."

This is worse than I had thought! Not only are breeders -- club members, mind you, not the backyard and commercial varieties -- not testing, but many of them who do test ignore the bad results and breed their affected stock anyway!
--
Rod Russell

Oreo said:

What I don't understand, Yorkysue, is why anyone who is trying thinks those bringing health issues to light and asking for protocols to be followed are having a go at them? I don't get that. Can you explain?

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Well I suppose it depends on where you are standing. I just get the impression that there is a certain amount of animosity between some people on this site and CC, and the end result is the breeders on CC keep getting bashed.

I follow the posts on CC and there appears to be people on that site who do health test for MVD and SM, and who have long lived dogs - so they are, it appears beginning to do things right. The protocol re not using a dog or bitch until 2.5 may or may not be adhered to in some cases, but I have been getting the breed supplements recently, and though as Margaret has pointed out in her post above, some people are ignoring it, there are others that are beginning to follow it, so why keep beating them up?

Maybe I'm just too soft, but if there is movement in the right direction, then others will follow. I just don't like the big stick approach.

Bet said:

Could I ask Yorkie Sue,

How would she answer the Chairman of the UK CKCS CLUB's this mention on Rod's Web Site,

"There are many Members who are still not prepared to Health Check their Breeding Stock,and of those who do ,it would appear that many would not hesitate to Breed from Affected Animals."

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I'm sorry I can't answer this I'm afraid. I am not privvy to her knowledge.
I think a lot has happened in the last year though, and the number of cavaliers that are now being health tested for SM appears to have vastly increased.

There will always be people who ignore guidelines, protocols, etc - but as time goes on, maybe they will find themselves out on a limb? Whether they will change? who knows.

Yorkysue said:

the number of cavaliers that are now being health tested for SM appears to have vastly increased.

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And thank goodness, but would this be the case if the 'big stick approach' hadn't been taken, i.e. PDE hadn't been aired?!

I think we all know the answer to that one

Also, Yorkysue, please don't be fooled by the difference between what people say and post publicly, and what they actually do. You do hear about their one or two older dogs, but when you have bred and owned dozens upon dozens of cavaliers, there will be the occasional oldie (I know of a puppy farm bred dog that lived to just short of 19 in Ireland). I never see the same people post about their dogs that have been euthenised from health problems or their dogs which consistently appear in the pedigrees of dogs with severe SM (some belonging to people on this board).

In a few cases there have been legal threats to the owners of the ill dogs and to those of us who know the truth and have the copies of the emails. But as these people know, some of us do have the emails, the pedigrees, the diagnosis documents, the copies of the registered letters sent to the breeders, the threatening emails, and the facts, and there is a successor programme to PDE coming...

In short, many of us can state that some of the breeders that are most defensive and vitriolic are NOT the ones who health test or more importantly -- use such information when they do to follow any of the health protocols unless it happens to suit them, regardless of what they seem to say.

Just use the online pedigree databases, pick one of those kennel names you are being encouraged to admire, and start going through the pedigrees and reverse pedigrees. You can see pretty quickly how common it is for many if not most or all of these people routinely to breed well under the MVD protocol (and that has been around for over a decade). Some find out their dog has early onset MVD a few years later and by then many litters have been whelped/sired and those pus have gone on to have pups. And this is the breed destroyed. Heart testing makes no difference if it isn't used within the MVD protocol. THAT is again what some of us are critical of these people for. Just flag-waving about testing is not enough. Check the ages at which their breeding dogs have their first first litters.

Even a breeder from a small kennel can have a huge influence on the spread of SM or MVD if he/she knows dogs of their line are producing it yet they do nothing. Those genes, especially from the stud dogs, spread very far and have significant impact on bred health overall. The code of silence is what decimates a breed.

And as the club's own cardiologist Simon Swift has said: lack of compliance has led to NO improvement in the MVD diagnosis rate in club-bred cavaliers in *18 years*.