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  1. #11
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    Default In Reply.

    Could I ask Yorkie Sue,

    How would she answer the Chairman of the UK CKCS CLUB's this mention on Rod's Web Site,

    "There are many Members who are still not prepared to Health Check their Breeding Stock,and of those who do ,it would appear that many would not hesitate to Breed from Affected Animals."
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkysue View Post
    Rod, I'm not saying everything is perfect, and I'm aware that MVD has been in the breed for decades - but why keep harping on about what has happened in the past (Boring Boring!) You can't turn back time. Why keep beating people up about it - move on.

    I want to concentrate on what is happening now - and in the future.

    Sandy's point is very pertinent - If you are a hobby breeder, and many show people are, then if a bitch misses a mating, or the pup you keep has health problems at 2yrs old (even if from clear stock) then it's back to the drawing board.

    It's no good having a go at the people who are trying - Look on CC at the Telvara bitch from a small show kennel of long lived dogs - this is fantasitc, but to put it all into context, a small breeder (number wise)or even a fair number of small breeders cannot change the face of the breed when thousands of pups are bred indiscriminately each year by commercial outlets who don't care.

    The puppy farmers are always being used as an excuse for so called responsible breeders to go their own way and 'adjust' the breeding protocols to suit their own convenience

    What do you suggest we should do? Wait for the puppy farmers to have a change of heart?

    I have owned cavaliers since 1976, and I believe that if we do not learn from the mistakes we made in the past, and I made as many as anyone else, then we will not change what is happening now, and the future will be very bleak for this breed.

    The only place to start is with the cavalier club breeders that say they are true lovers of the breed. After all, if they cannot put their own plans on hold to work for the good of all cavaliers, then how can we expect to influence any change in the more commercial breeders.

    Nobody is pretending that the protocols are not draconian, but that is the price the current breeders are paying for the mistakes made in the last decades. We pay it or the cavaliers suffer.

    It is lovely to hear about the dear little 17 year old, and I would like to think there will be a lot more 17 year old glamour girls in the years to come, but my worry is there is more likely to be casualties such as the five year old cavalier with SM that was euthanized this week.

    Seventeen year old cavaliers are not a proof that cavaliers as a breed have longevity. It is the average age of the breed as a whole that gives the true picture.
    My eleven and a half year old has a sibling that died at six, but most breeders conveniently forget the puppies they breed that die that young.
    Show me a whole litter that survive beyond thirteen and then I will be truly impressed.

    Cavalier Club members should be leading by example. They should be breeding to the protocols and then saying to the Kennel Club, we are doing everything we are advised to do to produce healthy puppies, now show that you are also willing to do something by making KC registration a gold standard where only the best breeders are accepted.

    In the Breed Record Supplement the well known show breeders, that continue to produce 5 litters each quarter, are still using underage dogs and bitches and still doing back to back matings as a matter of course.
    I know there is a difference of opinion about this practice in UK & USA but, while our Code of Good Practice says these things should not be done, how can we criticise other non-club breeders.

    Despite the fact that these commercial show breeders are putting two fingers up at breeding protocols they are being suggested as suitable candidates to stand for the Cavalier Club Committee.
    Another of my AGM proposals will be that anyone nominated for the Club committee signifies their willingness to breed only to the Club protocols while a member of that committee.

    I know there is a lot of good breeders out there, unfortunately they keep their heads down and let those that do not have the compassion to imagine what it is like to be the owner of a suffering dog, or even the dog itself unable to communicate it's pain, act as their self appointed representatives.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  3. #13
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    Thank you Margaret for your Succinct Reply,..

    I so agree ,that is the Breeding of Cavaliers in the Past ,that is causing the Suffering in to-days Cavaliers.

    I have mentioned how I have collected the Ages of Long Lived Cavaliers ,around 2,000, it was great to see some Cavaliers who had lived to 15-16- 17- even 18 ,and Tuppence ,19 years 4 months and 3 weeks.

    Those Cavaliers out of the 2,000 were very few, Iv'e had a quick Check, and I don't think there would be 100.

    So just because there are some Cavaliers who do live well into Old Age like Sasha, and it was lovely to see her, mean that most Cavaliers do.

    I believe the average Life Span for a Cavalier , according to Bruce Fogle in his Book , mentioned just over 10 years of age.

    I know that there are a number of Cavalier Breeders who are trying their Best to Breed Healthy Cavaliers, but for others ,is it only Lip Service they are giving to the Breed.

    As an example Look what Happened at the Last UK CKCS CLUB AGM, I might be wrong about this ,but was the Proposal by the Club Committee to have Breeding Guidelines for SM not Thawrted by a few Vociferious Members, and it took a Petition by Cavalier Pet Owners to have this Proposal discussed at a Liason Meeting.

    I do think that as Margaret says,Cavalier Committee Members ,should lead by Example.
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkysue View Post
    Rod, I'm not saying everything is perfect, and I'm aware that MVD has been in the breed for decades - but why keep harping on about what has happened in the past (Boring Boring!) You can't turn back time. Why keep beating people up about it - move on.

    I want to concentrate on what is happening now - and in the future.

    Sandy's point is very pertinent - If you are a hobby breeder, and many show people are, then if a bitch misses a mating, or the pup you keep has health problems at 2yrs old (even if from clear stock) then it's back to the drawing board.

    It's no good having a go at the people who are trying - Look on CC at the Telvara bitch from a small show kennel of long lived dogs - this is fantasitc, but to put it all into context, a small breeder (number wise)or even a fair number of small breeders cannot change the face of the breed when thousands of pups are bred indiscriminately each year by commercial outlets who don't care.
    What I don't understand, Yorkysue, is why anyone who is trying thinks those bringing health issues to light and asking for protocols to be followed are having a go at them? I don't get that. Can you explain?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkysue View Post
    Rod, I'm not saying everything is perfect, and I'm aware that MVD has been in the breed for decades - but why keep harping on about what has happened in the past (Boring Boring!) You can't turn back time. Why keep beating people up about it - move on.

    I want to concentrate on what is happening now - and in the future. ...

    It's no good having a go at the people who are trying ...
    Dear Yorkysue: Please forgive me for boring you. It's the last thing I had intended to do. And, rest assured that I do not "have a go at people who are trying". I focus on the ones who aren't trying.

    I have found that past behaviors often predict future conduct, and I see nothing in the present or future which points to any better adherence to the MVD breeding protocol. Nearly all breeders still recoil at waiting until a bitch is 2.5 years of age to breed her, and nearly all also flatly ignore whether the bitch's parents were murmur-free at age 5 years. And as for males, well, most are sent into the ring long before they reach even 24 months, much less 2.5 years. Those are the guts of the MVD breeding protocol, and those guts are completely discounted by nearly all Cavalier breeders.

    As Bet has pointed out today in this thread, just this year, the chairman of the UK Cavalier Club stated:

    "There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals."

    This is worse than I had thought! Not only are breeders -- club members, mind you, not the backyard and commercial varieties -- not testing, but many of them who do test ignore the bad results and breed their affected stock anyway!
    --
    Rod Russell

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oreo View Post
    What I don't understand, Yorkysue, is why anyone who is trying thinks those bringing health issues to light and asking for protocols to be followed are having a go at them? I don't get that. Can you explain?
    Well I suppose it depends on where you are standing. I just get the impression that there is a certain amount of animosity between some people on this site and CC, and the end result is the breeders on CC keep getting bashed.

    I follow the posts on CC and there appears to be people on that site who do health test for MVD and SM, and who have long lived dogs - so they are, it appears beginning to do things right. The protocol re not using a dog or bitch until 2.5 may or may not be adhered to in some cases, but I have been getting the breed supplements recently, and though as Margaret has pointed out in her post above, some people are ignoring it, there are others that are beginning to follow it, so why keep beating them up?

    Maybe I'm just too soft, but if there is movement in the right direction, then others will follow. I just don't like the big stick approach.
    Last edited by Yorkysue; 23rd November 2009 at 07:43 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    Could I ask Yorkie Sue,

    How would she answer the Chairman of the UK CKCS CLUB's this mention on Rod's Web Site,

    "There are many Members who are still not prepared to Health Check their Breeding Stock,and of those who do ,it would appear that many would not hesitate to Breed from Affected Animals."
    I'm sorry I can't answer this I'm afraid. I am not privvy to her knowledge.
    I think a lot has happened in the last year though, and the number of cavaliers that are now being health tested for SM appears to have vastly increased.

    There will always be people who ignore guidelines, protocols, etc - but as time goes on, maybe they will find themselves out on a limb? Whether they will change? who knows.
    Last edited by Yorkysue; 23rd November 2009 at 07:58 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkysue View Post
    the number of cavaliers that are now being health tested for SM appears to have vastly increased.
    And thank goodness, but would this be the case if the 'big stick approach' hadn't been taken, i.e. PDE hadn't been aired?!
    Mum to Tallulah (blenheim)
    Three Precious Cavalier Angels in Heaven, until we meet again girls...xxx

  9. #19
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    I think we all know the answer to that one

    Karen

    Ruby - my stunning soul mate who defies the odds every day
    Charlie- my angel at heart and devil at play


  10. #20
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    Also, Yorkysue, please don't be fooled by the difference between what people say and post publicly, and what they actually do. You do hear about their one or two older dogs, but when you have bred and owned dozens upon dozens of cavaliers, there will be the occasional oldie (I know of a puppy farm bred dog that lived to just short of 19 in Ireland). I never see the same people post about their dogs that have been euthenised from health problems or their dogs which consistently appear in the pedigrees of dogs with severe SM (some belonging to people on this board).

    In a few cases there have been legal threats to the owners of the ill dogs and to those of us who know the truth and have the copies of the emails. But as these people know, some of us do have the emails, the pedigrees, the diagnosis documents, the copies of the registered letters sent to the breeders, the threatening emails, and the facts, and there is a successor programme to PDE coming...

    In short, many of us can state that some of the breeders that are most defensive and vitriolic are NOT the ones who health test or more importantly -- use such information when they do to follow any of the health protocols unless it happens to suit them, regardless of what they seem to say.

    Just use the online pedigree databases, pick one of those kennel names you are being encouraged to admire, and start going through the pedigrees and reverse pedigrees. You can see pretty quickly how common it is for many if not most or all of these people routinely to breed well under the MVD protocol (and that has been around for over a decade). Some find out their dog has early onset MVD a few years later and by then many litters have been whelped/sired and those pus have gone on to have pups. And this is the breed destroyed. Heart testing makes no difference if it isn't used within the MVD protocol. THAT is again what some of us are critical of these people for. Just flag-waving about testing is not enough. Check the ages at which their breeding dogs have their first first litters.

    Even a breeder from a small kennel can have a huge influence on the spread of SM or MVD if he/she knows dogs of their line are producing it yet they do nothing. Those genes, especially from the stud dogs, spread very far and have significant impact on bred health overall. The code of silence is what decimates a breed.

    And as the club's own cardiologist Simon Swift has said: lack of compliance has led to NO improvement in the MVD diagnosis rate in club-bred cavaliers in *18 years*.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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