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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkysue View Post
    Well I suppose it depends on where you are standing. I just get the impression that there is a certain amount of animosity between some people on this site and CC,.
    There is a lot of animosity.
    The most vocal breeders on CC are those that, before the showing of PDE, were continuing to breed with cavaliers they knew were producing puppies with SM, while denying that there was any such problem or that they had it in their lines.
    They were adamant that no way would they MRI their breeding stock, and when the film revealed the true situation they reacted in a very vindictive manner.

    They now say that they are MRIing and give the impression they are breeding to the protocols, but as was done with the MVD protocol they are again being less than honest.

    When a moderator on CC, a breed club committee member and health representative, will mate an underage bitch to an unscanned dog, and then go and represent members at health liaison meetings, then perhaps a little intolerance is natural from those that have known these people for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkysue View Post
    The protocol re not using a dog or bitch until 2.5 may or may not be adhered to in some cases, but I have been getting the breed supplements recently, and though as Margaret has pointed out in her post above, some people are ignoring it, there are others that are beginning to follow it, so why keep beating them up?.
    It is not those that follow the protocols that are protesting, they know they are doing the right thing. Why would they think the remarks are meant for them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkysue View Post
    but if there is movement in the right direction, then others will follow. I just don't like the big stick approach.
    The MVD protocol is proof that waiting for people to follow does not work; the trouble is we waited 18 years and would be waiting still if the film had not been made.

    My six years trying to raise awareness of SM showed me that waiting for breeders to do anything that stopped them from doing what they want, when they want, was futile.

    Hard headed commercial considerations is what will keep cavaliers safe. That is why some of the bigger commercial show breeders are scanning. They need to sell their puppies.
    Puppy owners asking for certificates and knowing enough to not be fooled by talk of 'all my dogs are tested' is what will give cavaliers a better future.

    If that is the big stick approach, then in my experience, that is the only approach that works with those that are unable to put the welfare of their own dogs and the future of this lovely breed before their own desire to breed winning dogs.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  2. #22
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    Yes a lot of us are still waiting for the others to follow on even the MVD protocol which is cheap to comply with. The complaint with MRIing is that it is too expensive but many of the same people who make this complaint don't follow the MVD protocol either or vet test rather than cardiologist test (and some of these are breed club committee members).

    Bet quoted from the Club's own chairwoman, who posted on the front page of the breed club site in exasperation last spring. It bears repeating as some -- amongst those she refers to in annoyance here -- now try to give the impression on other sites that they are very health focused and are busy testing away and following health guidelines:

    A BENCH MARK WEEKEND
    Before the AGM last Sunday, Simon Swift, Cardiologist, gave a talk to members to inform us of the present situation, current research and to update us on the new BVA/KC heart testing scheme that involves a number of breeds including cavaliers.

    His talk was attended by about 25 members, including the committee, out of a current total UK membership of 1050. At the end of his talk Simon had difficulty in leaving the room for the throng of other members waiting outside for the AGM, chatting and drinking coffee, whiling away the time until his talk was over. So much for breeders’ interest in, and concern for heart problems within the breed.

    The AGM then followed, attended by 63 members. The agenda contained a proposal from the committee that the Code of Ethics should include the recommended breeding guidelines for SM. These are not mandatory rules, merely recommendations, and would have been in line with Hearts and Eyes breeding guidelines, which have been in place for some years.

    These proposals seemed to me to be innocuous and reasonable. However, the proposal was substantially defeated by the meeting. This was a triumph by the members present over neurologists and geneticists, and of course, over the committee. It would seem that cavalier club members continue to progress, like lemmings, towards mandatory breeding regulations that will surely come, as surely as night follows day. There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals. I have tried my utmost to defend and support the breed and the club. This weekend was proof, if proof is needed, that there is no point in deluding myself, or others, that self-regulation is possible.

    Mrs Lesley Jupp
    24th March 2009
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

  3. #23
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    Yorkie Sue,

    Just wonder how long have you been fighting for the Health of our Cavalier Breed?

    If 10- 20 years then you must know what has been going on.

    Were you around when Dr B. Cattanach ,Geneticist , and Bruce Field ,the UK CKCS Health Representative, walked away in disgust when they were trying to help the CKCS CLUB get to grips with the Cavalier MVD Problem arbout 20 years ago, because of the abuse they were getting from Club Members.

    You mention about the Animosity against Cavalier Folk who are in the CC List.

    No you are so wrong in your Statement.

    There are many on that List who are trying to give Cavaliers a Healthy Future,but my Grip is with Norma Inglis ,who is very Vocal on that List and has her Breed Notes now on the www.cavalierclub.co.uk website.

    Why has she ,when she was Breed Correspondent for Dog World ,and now her Breed Notes on this other Site , and I think I am right in saying this, never written that all Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers should ask to see a Health Certificate from the Cavalier Breeder as Proof that their Cavalier Breeding Stock has been Health Tested.

    Write to say that the way forward for the Health of our Breed ,is to have a List showing the Names of Cavaliers who have been MRI Scanned by Breeders and giving the Results.

    Write also to say how important it is for Cavalier Breeders to adher to the UK CKCS CLUB's Breeding Guidelines.

    When she choses to do this ,then I am positive ,she and the other Cavalier Breeders who support her ,will have ,as she says she wants,the Cavalier Breeders to get the Support and Encouragement from the Cavalier Pet Owners.
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  4. #24
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    Never thought about doing this before , but the Heavens have opened here, so nothing to do,looked back at Random some Cavalier Breed Supplements for the past number of years,and the average of Litters from CKCS Club Members from their Cavalier Breeding Stock, is around 10 Litters a Year . Not all ,but quite a few.

    That's OK for the Cavalier Breed if Health Tests on all their Breeding Stock has been carried out , but what if this has not been done by all those Cavalier Breeders .

    Just think of the number of Cavalier Puppies around that could be carrying Health Problems.

    Is this not a Frightening Scenario?
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  5. #25
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    Could I mention that if I make a mistake I will say so.

    I have been looking at my Post about mentioning that on average there were 10 Litters a year being by Cavalier Club Members .

    I should have made it clear ,that it is only a few Cavalier Club Members who Breed 10 Litters a year from their Cavalier Breeding Stock.
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  6. #26
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  7. #27
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    I knpow 2 of these breeders personally and can certainly vouch for their good breeding practices. One Scottish and one English.
    Elspeth

  8. #28
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    Well that will probably persuade a few of the top breeders to join the ABS.

    The only problem with that scheme is we could have cavalier breeders with KC Accolades of Excellence who have bred more than five Champions but have only ever eye tested.
    I can think of a few well known breeders that would be eligible.

    As it stands, there are very few people that would not qualify to be a KC Accredited Breeder for cavaliers.
    Eye testing is mandatory ( but no check on whether the cavalier passed or failed )
    The heart Testing is recommended but they cannot be penalised if they don't test for MVD, and breeding to the SM guidelines is watered down to 'seek club advice'

    There is no requirement that cavaliers failing any health check be withdrawn from the breeding programmes.

    How confusing is that for puppy buyers.

    I cannot understand why the KC trumpets that they will.............. "hand a petition into the government on Tuesday 1 December, which urges it to make the principles and standards expected of Accredited Breeders compulsory throughout the country. This would mean that anybody who does not follow responsible breeding practice, whether they breed pedigrees or cross breeds and whether they register with the Kennel Club or not, would be unable to sell puppies within the law"

    The KC has been registering puppies from thousands of these breeders every year. They could have set an example by insisting on responsible breedng practices at any time.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  9. #29
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    I just can't make sense of the Kennel Club's Statement.

    What is the use of the Accolades of Excellence for Cavaliers, is this more Lip Service from the Kennel Club before Professor Sir P Bateson's Report appears next month.

    I can't speak about other Dog Breeds ,but until the Kennel Club recognizes as the UK CKCS Club has now done, that our Cavalier Breed has 3 Main Health Issues, MVD,SM,and Eye conditions, and gives out the information to Cavalier Owners that for Cavaliers, Health Screening for those Conditions is one way of reducing the Risk of Passing on Pre-Existing Conditions, then I really do think the KC's Propaganda about their Accolades of Excellence ,at least for the Cavalier Breed, is worthless.

    Is this another Stitch Up by the Kennel Club for our Cavaliers?
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    I cannot understand why the KC trumpets that they will.............. "hand a petition into the government on Tuesday 1 December, which urges it to make the principles and standards expected of Accredited Breeders compulsory throughout the country. This would mean that anybody who does not follow responsible breeding practice, whether they breed pedigrees or cross breeds and whether they register with the Kennel Club or not, would be unable to sell puppies within the law"
    Since the PDE documentary the KC on a number of occasions publicly mentioned even in their media releases that they wanted "Statutory Power". Somehow I cannot see the Government giving the KC "Statutory Power".

    To me it appears that the Government including DEFRA sees the KC as one of several Consultants that advise and assist DEFRA. This such as seen at this link address where DEFRA is drafting Codes of Practice concerning Dogs plus also for some other animals, note next to Dogs all the Consultants are mentioned, and I also noted for Dogs that there were Observers and where from.
    http://www.publications.parliament.u...90209c0001.htm

    Maybe the Drafting of those particular Codes of Practice might be nearly finished. Maybe more Codes of Practice might be on the cards in the near future, and maybe the KC feels that now is the right time to Formally Petition for "Statutory Power". But as I mentioned, somehow I cannot see the Government giving the KC "Statutory Power".

    Yes Bet the Bateson Report appears next month for in the video interview to Australia he mentioned January. He also mentioned this which I think may be in his Report, well we will have to wait and see and to see exactly what he meant by this.
    "I think a lot could be done by good Codes of Practice which then could be used, and if an Animal Charity wants to bring a case against a dog breeder and the dog breeder has not followed the Codes of Practice then they could be successfully Prosecuted."
    .

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