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Thread: Is it wrong to offer a prize for a health tested veteran cavalier?

  1. #1
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    Default Is it wrong to offer a prize for a health tested veteran cavalier?

    An interesting discussion has been taking place on CavalierChat, where Mark Marshall has upset breeders by offering a cash prize for a class of veteran cavaliers ( over 7 years old ) that have been MRI'd free of SM and have no heart murmur.
    They do not seem to appreciate his generous offer.

    As Mark said.....

    "In my ignorance I actually thought that a senior dog, within the Breed Standard - without a syrinx or a murmur would be desireable to many".

    The reasons given for the objections are interesting..........
    "lets hope the poor old souls have good hearts or the greedy may drag out oldies just to get the money

    Strange remark considering Mark's offer was originally made on a thread where breeders had just been congratulating a twelve year old for winning best veteran at Midland Counties. Interesting too that they, themselves, are running a scheme to give small cash prizes for veterans at all the major shows.

    Slightly worrying is this comment by a cavalier health representative.......
    "I don't know many people that would want to put an elderly dog under heavy sedation or anaesthetic to win 200 even with a good heart!!"

    Is seven really that old in a cavalier? In most breeds a seven year old dog would not be considered elderly. At Crufts I have seen twelve year old border collies competing in flyball competitions.

    One poster says.......
    "he's hoping it's going to be a male that wins, then he can use it at stud! The 200 will be part of the stud fee ...

    A crass and ungracious reply to a generous offer. I would imagine a lot of people would be interested in such a dog, and the snide remark about the stud fee would seem to be pure malice, as it would appear to be a no-strings-attached offer.

    Another poster............
    "It's not about silly gimmicks such as your 200 quid fiasco."

    200 is serious money, nothing silly about an amount like that.
    I think you could describe it as putting your money where your mouth is, and there are not many people prepared to do that.

    It appears these health conscious breeders have all decided that Mark should donate the money to research, despite a very sensible post which said.......

    "It could be a great PR opportunity to showcase the best of veteran stock.
    Obviously it wouldn't want to eclipse or detract from the winning dogs on the day who merit the acclaim on their big day out...but there's possibly something in the idea worth exploring surely.
    So what if someone is interested in using an older dog at stud??
    If these old boys came to general notice and still had something useful to contribute to someone's breeding programme,then why not?
    I'm a bit surprised that a very real positive PR opportunity is being dismissed.
    On the other hand does anyone think that such a dog doesn't actually exist?
    I asked someone a while back about older heart clear scanned cavaliers.
    The reply was "there have been more reported sightings of a Yeti, me dear"

    I suspect that the last sentence goes to the core of the objections.
    It is not that these older dogs don't exist, I know of one ( pet owned, scanned, nine year old, no murmur, no SM ) but because breeders will not scan their older cavaliers.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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    I also have an oldie (a neutered male) who will be 9 years old in March who was just MRI'd this past week (for disc problems and nerve compression in his neck) and had a check by the cardiologist before his scan because of his age. The results - No evidence of SM or a heart murmur! Unfortunately, he is from a backyard breeder who has never returned any of my calls or e-mails. I say unfortunately, because when I got him I knew nothing about the prevalence of MVD or SM in the breed and of course the breeder just wanted my money to keep pumping out more puppies. I never even got papers for him. But, I'm happy to have an oldie who has scanned clear and has been evaluated by a cardiologist and is murmur free.
    Bev
    Oliver (blenheim, born 3/2001), Riley (black & tan, born 8/2002,), Madison (ruby, born 9/2003), and Oz (tri-color, born 7/2007)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    An interesting discussion has been taking place on CavalierChat, where Mark Marshall has upset breeders by offering a cash prize for a class of veteran cavaliers ( over 7 years old ) that have been MRI'd free of SM and have no heart murmur.
    They do not seem to appreciate his generous offer.

    As Mark said.....

    "In my ignorance I actually thought that a senior dog, within the Breed Standard - without a syrinx or a murmur would be desireable to many".

    The reasons given for the objections are interesting..........
    "lets hope the poor old souls have good hearts or the greedy may drag out oldies just to get the money

    Strange remark considering Mark's offer was originally made on a thread where breeders had just been congratulating a twelve year old for winning best veteran at Midland Counties. Interesting too that they, themselves, are running a scheme to give small cash prizes for veterans at all the major shows.

    Slightly worrying is this comment by a cavalier health representative.......
    "I don't know many people that would want to put an elderly dog under heavy sedation or anaesthetic to win 200 even with a good heart!!"

    Is seven really that old in a cavalier? In most breeds a seven year old dog would not be considered elderly. At Crufts I have seen twelve year old border collies competing in flyball competitions.

    One poster says.......
    "he's hoping it's going to be a male that wins, then he can use it at stud! The 200 will be part of the stud fee ...

    A crass and ungracious reply to a generous offer. I would imagine a lot of people would be interested in such a dog, and the snide remark about the stud fee would seem to be pure malice, as it would appear to be a no-strings-attached offer.

    Another poster............
    "It's not about silly gimmicks such as your 200 quid fiasco."

    200 is serious money, nothing silly about an amount like that.
    I think you could describe it as putting your money where your mouth is, and there are not many people prepared to do that.

    It appears these health conscious breeders have all decided that Mark should donate the money to research, despite a very sensible post which said.......

    "It could be a great PR opportunity to showcase the best of veteran stock.
    Obviously it wouldn't want to eclipse or detract from the winning dogs on the day who merit the acclaim on their big day out...but there's possibly something in the idea worth exploring surely.
    So what if someone is interested in using an older dog at stud??
    If these old boys came to general notice and still had something useful to contribute to someone's breeding programme,then why not?
    I'm a bit surprised that a very real positive PR opportunity is being dismissed.
    On the other hand does anyone think that such a dog doesn't actually exist?
    I asked someone a while back about older heart clear scanned cavaliers.
    The reply was "there have been more reported sightings of a Yeti, me dear"

    I suspect that the last sentence goes to the core of the objections.
    It is not that these older dogs don't exist, I know of one ( pet owned, scanned, nine year old, no murmur, no SM ) but because breeders will not scan their older cavaliers.
    I am sure that if people wanted to read the WHOLE story that they are perfectly capable of going to Cavalier Chat and seeing both sides. Tattling like This just seems so juvenile.
    Last edited by WoodHaven; 7th December 2009 at 06:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodHaven View Post
    I am sure that if people wanted to read the WHOLE story that they are perfectly capable of going to Cavalier Chat and seeing both sides. This just seems so juvenile.
    It is a little bit confusing because the thread has been split in two, but for those interested..........

    http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/foru...?t=1545&page=2

    http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/foru...ead.php?t=1549

    I agree, they are very juvenile. You would think they would be grateful and work with Mark to see how the thing could be arranged.

    There was a similar offer made by two Cavalier Club Members a year or so ago. That was rejected as well.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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    They arnt interested because most of them havent got a dog that would win, the few that have prob arnt bothered about winning, they have the best gift of all. di
    What's the difference between a new husband and a new dog? After a year, the dog is still excited to see you.

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    I don't think it's wrong at all to offer a prize for a health tested veteran cavalier.
    After all, the Cavalier breed itself was created in the pursuit of a prize offered by Mr Roswell Eldridge.
    I guess it's really down to the exhibitors who own cavaliers which might fit the criteria. Are they prepared to give them a day out?
    Sins

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    Default Is it Wrong to offer a Prize for a Health Tested Veteran Cavalier.?

    Sandy,

    I was shocked at some of the Mickey Taking ,Snide Comments made to Mark.

    Does this not prove that there should be a Cavalier List now of Cavaliers who have been MRI Scanned and Heart Tested.

    There is an excellent Letter in this week's DOG WORLD,mentioning that the the TOP STUD Cavalier awards are based on solely on an Animal's ability to throw Show Winning Progeny, Health does not seem to be a Factor.

    I am not sure about these facts ,but the Top Ten to 20 Cavalier Sires in the Cavalier Breed for the past 5 or 10 years ,very few are on the Cavalier's Club over 5 Heart Clear List,and even fewer are Listed as having been MRI Scanned.

    The Letter Writer goes onto say ,just how rare it is in Cavaliers to find Stud Dog Heart Clear and SM Clear over 5 years of Age.
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    Sandy,

    I was shocked at some of the Mickey Taking ,Snide Comments made to Mark.

    Does this not prove that there should be a Cavalier List now of Cavaliers who have been MRI Scanned and Heart Tested.

    There is an excellent Letter in this week's DOG WORLD,mentioning that the the TOP STUD Cavalier awards are based on solely on an Animal's ability to throw Show Winning Progeny, Health does not seem to be a Factor.

    I am not sure about these facts ,but the Top Ten to 20 Cavalier Sires in the Cavalier Breed for the past 5 or 10 years ,very few are on the Cavalier's Club over 5 Heart Clear List,and even fewer are Listed as having been MRI Scanned.

    The Letter Writer goes onto say ,just how rare it is in Cavaliers to find Stud Dog Heart Clear and SM Clear over 5 years of Age.
    I have no idea what a "mickey taking snide comment is", so I'll pass on that. I assume you read the whole spiel -- there comments made on both sides-- no offense intended. Please!

    I have no problem getting the information on health tests on the dogs I want to use. None. I don't know if a list of heart and MRI'd clear dogs will help you at all BET. You don't even own one do you?

    Top Stud dog is very explicit in what it means-- number of progeny that have done well at shows. YOU can't change what it means because you think you know BETter.

    How many MRI's is enough for you?? Many of the breeders I know doing them are doing them young-- why put the money to championing a dog if it isn't clear as a pup? Then another before it's bred? Then another after 6-- or now even later???

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    I don't believe it's a matter of how many MRIs Bet or anyone else wants.
    The researchers are interested in older cavaliers without a syrinx,because they obviously feel they may yield some useful information.It stands to reason that some breeders would have such cavaliers in their kennels.
    Scans in the Uk are cheap,about $200 approx.
    Roughly the price of a pair of shoes,some highlights at the hairdressers or a nice handbag.
    A dog who is clear of a syrinx at 18 months may not be at four or six years so if a veteran scans clear of a syrinx or even herniation it's a big deal at the moment.
    I'd love to see breeders who have websites highlighting their old healthy cavaliers. It's a real shot in the arm for the breed and subtly generates confidence in the future of the breed.
    There's nothing at all wrong either in continuing business as usual with dogshows and awards for top stud dogs.It's all part of the chain of business which allows us to buy a cavalier which might actually look like a cavalier!!
    But at the same time,it's perfectly valid to identify and try to utilise the healthy older stock for breeding and to ensure that their DNA is not unnecessarily lost to the genepool by assisting research.Research may be hampered if people don't offer their dogs.No point throwing money at researchers if they don't have the raw materials to work with.

    Sins

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    Quote Originally Posted by sins View Post
    I don't believe it's a matter of how many MRIs Bet or anyone else wants.
    The researchers are interested in older cavaliers without a syrinx,because they obviously feel they may yield some useful information.It stands to reason that some breeders would have such cavaliers in their kennels.
    Scans in the Uk are cheap,about $200 approx.
    Roughly the price of a pair of shoes,some highlights at the hairdressers or a nice handbag.
    A dog who is clear of a syrinx at 18 months may not be at four or six years so if a veteran scans clear of a syrinx or even herniation it's a big deal at the moment.
    I'd love to see breeders who have websites highlighting their old healthy cavaliers. It's a real shot in the arm for the breed and subtly generates confidence in the future of the breed.
    There's nothing at all wrong either in continuing business as usual with dogshows and awards for top stud dogs.It's all part of the chain of business which allows us to buy a cavalier which might actually look like a cavalier!!
    But at the same time,it's perfectly valid to identify and try to utilise the healthy older stock for breeding and to ensure that their DNA is not unnecessarily lost to the genepool by assisting research.Research may be hampered if people don't offer their dogs.No point throwing money at researchers if they don't have the raw materials to work with.

    Sins
    MRI's here for SM are a minimum of 1000.00 and I have to fly to Washington state. They are 1800-2200. USD now here in my area. I just can't EvER see doing 2 or 3 on one dog. Very invasive too.

    Wow things are truly different where I live. I've never spent more than 75 USD on shoes and highlights at Mario Tricoci (nice) is about 85 dollars.

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