Pedigree Dogs Exposed on Today Show tomorrow

Cathy T said:

And that's when you tell them you breed to meet the standard in appearance and breed for health. My first thing to people who are going to a byb is not only are you going to get a Cavalier that doesn't look like a Cavalier....but you have a much higher chance of the numerous other diseases Cavalier are prone to. Tell them.....you are NOT going to get a less expensive healthier dog through a byb....less expensive yes, healthier NO!!!

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Yes, but the few here that have seen PDE seem to think that show breeders are evil incarnate (breeding siblings-- father to daughter etc..). I would hate for these people to think that they should go to a breeder that doesn't health test instead of one that shows their dogs. But that is some of their mindsets.

I've had this same basic discussion with people who call me looking to "save a rescue cavalier from being pts" instead of buying (putting $$$ in the hands of evil breeders).

P.S. And I too would love to see what breeders are breeding siblings or parent to offspring-- it is almost unheard of unless your gene pool is almost non existent.

Karlin said:

Once again I reiterate: there are some great, caring, committed breeders out there but many of those who post, and post most vociferously, are telling lots of porkies and they know it and they know I and many others know it because we have the evidence. One of these days the truth will out...

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Hear, hear, Karlin! :jmp:

And these would be the same people who also said, two years ago, five years ago, or yesterday: "I am going to buy my puppy from an Irish/English importer because those countries don't have MVD" or "I can't afford what you are charging and can get a dog for $650 from XXX".

These are basic education issues. It is breeders and clubs that need to take the time to educate buyers. Right now it is hard for puppy buyers to find proper information on finding a breeder, and there's little publicity behind how to find good breeders done by national clubs or national kennel clubs, and often the guidelines are very hard to find on club websites. Often the recommendations skirt around health issues (few mention SM and MRIs for example, even as an optional consideration) and often it is pretty intimidating to ask a breeder for health certs. Breeders themselves feel intimidating asking for health certs from each other.

And at the end of the day, the majority of buyers will likely still buy on price. Especially with a very expensive breed. For people to go with the good breeder, they need to understand why they should.

Karlin said:

And these would be the same people who also said, two years ago, five years ago, or yesterday: "I am going to buy my puppy from an Irish/English importer because those countries don't have MVD" or "I can't afford what you are charging and can get a dog for $650 from XXX".

These are basic education issues. It is breeders and clubs that need to take the time to educate buyers. Right now it is hard for puppy buyers to find proper information on finding a breeder, and there's little publicity behind how to find good breeders done by national clubs or national kennel clubs, and often the guidelines are very hard to find on club websites. Often the recommendations skirt around health issues (few mention SM and MRIs for example, even as an optional consideration) and often it is pretty intimidating to ask a breeder for health certs. Breeders themselves feel intimidating asking for health certs from each other.

And at the end of the day, the majority of buyers will likely still buy on price. Especially with a very expensive breed. For people to go with the good breeder, they need to understand why they should.

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No, another nail in the coffin. I mean, there are doctors on this show that said that show breeders ARE DOING HARM. No mention that byb and puppymills are more harmful. That all animals, no all living things are made of genes and some are nasty-- some hide and get passed on.

WoodHaven said:

Yes, but the few here that have seen PDE seem to think that show breeders are evil incarnate (breeding siblings-- father to daughter etc..).

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I think a lot of caring pet owners are caught between two harsh realities. On the one hand, if people didn't breed these lovable little cavs, I wouldn't have precious Leo, and so many of us would miss out on the caring, loving temperament of this breed.

On the other hand, how many dogs of how many different kinds of breeds have to be euthanised every day for little more than the crime of being born before we realize this is our problem, not the rest of the world's? And for how long can we sit back with our cavaliers and even good, health-testing breeders until we think--this is our problem, and not everyone else's?

mckcomplex said:

I think a lot of caring pet owners are caught between two harsh realities. On the one hand, if people didn't breed these lovable little cavs, I wouldn't have precious Leo, and so many of us would miss out on the caring, loving temperament of this breed.

On the other hand, how many dogs of how many different kinds of breeds have to be euthanised every day for little more than the crime of being born before we realize this is our problem, not the rest of the world's? And for how long can we sit back with our cavaliers and even good, health-testing breeders until we think--this is our problem, and not everyone else's?

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Ironically, where I live-- we have small breed rescue (that I work with) that does an excellent job of moving the dogs without homes to the areas that are demanding more small dogs.
There are areas is the USA where they are importing small dogs from Mexico and Puerto Rico (which is a huge health risk).
There are also rescue groups in the south that are moving small adoptable dogs into the northeast to find homes. I find this an excellent alternative to euthanasia-- even if it is more expensive.

Large, old and ill dogs (AND CATS) here will have issues finding homes. My daughter has worked to foster kittens and PIT BULLS/pit bull mixes that are of healthy dispositions to find homes.

Breeders also teach their children to love and help ALL animals.

There is no way in the world I'd have this many large dogs (as I do cavaliers).

I think that's still getting away from the original intent of my question. In your area, you might have a good rescue operation, but that doesn't change the fact that dogs being euthanised or sitting in shelters without adoption remain a problem.

What it comes down to, and I'm not saying it's an easy question or one that has a direct answer, is whether or not it's responsible to breed or buy from breeders at all when there are so many animals sitting at the pound.

Obviously, I'm not pointing fingers here--I own a Cavalier and love him dearly. But that doesn't mean this question doesn't need to be asked and considered.

Also, I don't want to hijack this thread, so that's the last comment I'll make about it.

Pedigree Dogs Exposed on Today Show

Could I mention that I have never said that there were CKCS Champions with Half Brother to Half Sister Matings.

The Cavaliers I was referring to were matings taking place in the early 1980's and some Father to Daughter ,Mother to Son in the 1970's.

All this information is with Cavalier Researchers for both Cavalier Health Problems SM and MVD.

Pedigree Dogs Exposed on Today Show,.

Karlin thanks for your two recent Posts.

Could I just mention now that this subject has even been aired on the American TODAY Program, that the Cavalier Head is now too Small for it's Brain ,that Breeding for a Particular Skull Shape of Cavaliers can have Devastating Consequences( Is this type of Head ,now a result for what can have the chance of Winning in the Show Ring.)

There are now so many Cavaliers around with this Type of Skull ,Karlin mentioned that A's mated with A's,are producing affected SM Cavaliers, some Cavalier Breeders I think are Proclaiming that for their argument MRI Scans don't mean a thing because of this happening, I would like to ask those Cavalier Breeders ,have they ever considered the reason why this is happening ,could be the amount of those Cavaliers around to-day with Small Skulls, and as was said in the TODAY Program ,their Brains are now Large for their Heads, because of this, there could be a good number of Cavaliers Carriers who are producing affected SM Cavaliers.

If this is the case ,what a mess the Cavalier Breed is in.

I have mentioned before about contacting Dr J Bell ,Geneticist ,at Tufts University ,America ,asking about the amount of Cavalier MVD Carriers that could now be around in the Cavalier Breed,and his reply was that the only way to combat this in order to save the Cavalier Breed ,is NOT to Breed from a Cavalier till they are 2.5 years of age, so I would guess this advice from the Top Genetic Lecturer at Tufts, will also apply for the Cavalier SM Problem.

As Karlin says, for Breeding purposes MRI Scanning and MVD Testing is absolutely meaningless ,that the Cavalier Breeding Stock should not be being Bred from before 2.5.

Dr J Bell's words not mine.

mckcomplex said:

I think that's still getting away from the original intent of my question. In your area, you might have a good rescue operation, but that doesn't change the fact that dogs being euthanised or sitting in shelters without adoption remain a problem.

What it comes down to, and I'm not saying it's an easy question or one that has a direct answer, is whether or not it's responsible to breed or buy from breeders at all when there are so many animals sitting at the pound.

Obviously, I'm not pointing fingers here--I own a Cavalier and love him dearly. But that doesn't mean this question doesn't need to be asked and considered.

Also, I don't want to hijack this thread, so that's the last comment I'll make about it.

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I can't adopt from most of the rescues because I don't have a fenced yard, which means an automatic no for most rescue groups. So that leaves me with the options of not getting a dog, buying one, or stealing one .

I found the program to be very informative, and I was appalled as well. I know this program was geared toward show breeders in the UK, but I wish there were more shows done on puppy mills, and BYB. As the owner of a puppy mill rescue, who was used as the stud dog, I am horrified to imagine how many puppies my Alfie sired. He was just diagnosed with MVD at age 5, and has two LP, one a grade 2 and the other a grade 3. Luckily he shows no signs of SM.

I also have a cavalier whom I purchased from a BYB, before I was educated on reputable breeders. Although she did test for heart and eyes, and both the sire and dam were clear at ages 4 and 5, Lily was just diagnosed with SM, PSOM and a grade two LP on her left knee. Although her SM, is mild, (a very small syrinx) she has moderate symptoms. The SM medication seemed to help at first, but her symptoms seem to be progressing. As much as I love the breed, and can not imagine life without a cavalier, it is so hard to watch them battle their symptoms. I would probably not purchase a cavalier again, but would most definitely adopt a rescue. I fear for the future of these sweet little dogs. I wish more information was available here in the US on BYB, so unsuspecting people like me, would have that information before buying a cavalier. I thought I had done my homework, but I was ignorant of BYB. There are so many people like me, who want a pet quality puppy, and don't know the difference between a BYB and a reputable breeder. I know that I could have had the same outcome with any breeder, but I get so angry with myself for not knowing the difference. I have two special needs dogs whom I love dearly, but the cost to care for them is astronomical, and if these dogs would be in a home with owners who could not afford to care for them, or not want the burden, then both could have ended up with a sad end. I know there are many owners out there who will face this, and the dogs will end up in rescue, or worse. People have been educated to the horrors of puppy mills here in the US, and so many more know now not to buy from pet stores, but are ignorant to the problems with BYB. This is why I feel the problem of BYB needs to have more attention here in the US.