The Magnificent 7?

[Quinny74]

I'm in a bit of a quandry at the moment. Basil our 7 year old adopted ex breeder fathered a litter that arrived over xmas. It was his last litter before he came to live with us.
Basil is an absolute darling and I love him to bits but he is quite a bit older than our other dogs and has quite a prominent heart murmur that he has medication for. I know that unfortunately we wont have Basil for very long so I aim to make what time we have together great for him. I only wish we had had him since he was a pup as he was badly mistreated when young.
The quandry is that I would love to have a Basil baby so I have a little bit of him for the after he's gone, although that hopefully wont be for a long time.
Am I being stupid, selfish or soppy? What would you do?

[Karlin]

I think you would want to very seriously consider the heartbreak of taking a puppy from a dog with a known severe heart murmur as this is the likely pattern any offspring will follow, with all the loss and costs that will involve over the dog's shortened lifespan. Those genes will have gone to the entire litter. Very sad that he was bred by the breeder, and extremely irresponsible. Breeders like that are why half of all cavaliers have an old dog's serious level of heart disease by the time they are only age 5. Age 7 with a severe murmur is a young age of onset for such a terribly serious level of this devastating disease and does not bode well for any of those puppies. I hope they are all homed with a mandatory spay/neuter contract as none of the offspring should ever risk producing puppies and passing these poor genes any further.

I sure would not PAY for a puppy from such a breeder and if a breeder is selling these and they are registered, I would file a formal complaint with the KC as it is utterly shocking to have bred such a dog.

Also puppies really do not get the personality of the parent (any more than children do of their parents). Personality is hugely shaped by the dog's own life and experiences. Temperament is generally inherited, but not personality.

If you want a puppy and these are rescue dogs, then I'd consider the puppy as a rescue dog that will likely inherit poor health. And I'd only take on a puppy if you want a puppy generally -- not because you want a copy of an existing dog. Personalities of siblings in a litter are all very different, and are also generally not the same as the parents.

[MARK MARSHALL]

With a known significant Heart Murmur (whilst still young) is disgraceful.

The Breeder needs to be named and shamed.

Karlin is of course correct - none of the puppies should be allowed to have progeny.

And what thoughts made you use the heading "The magnificent 7"

A very unhappy,

Mark.

[WoodHaven]

Whoa-- a bit judgmental no???

1st of all, she hasn't mentioned how bad a murmur or if the dog was even seen by a cardiologist-- was he?

He is 7 years old-- was he heart clear until recently? He could have been heart clear passed 5. Do we know?

I prefer not to JUDGE until I hear more.. and even then, since I don't know the people involved, I probably keep my opinions on a bit more even keel.

JMO-- I am sure yours will differ-- we are all human

[Margaret C]

I understand, only too well, how special these little dogs become when they are ill and you feel that they will not be with you for long, but Karlin is right, you may be just taking on more heartbreak.

Unless this murmur was very sudden onset, I would really question the wisdom of obtaining any puppy from a breeder that would use a dog with severe MVD. What other health problems may she be ignoring in her breeding cavaliers?

Please do not reward this breeder for what sounds like very irresponsible breeding. If you have room for another puppy, buy from someone that does all the health testing, they are the breeders that should be supported.

[diddy]

Sorry but NO! Its always tempting thinking "I would really love just one of his/her pups" isnt it? The reality is that however much the pup might look or act like him it can never be him, Basil is unique. Love and cherish him for whatever time you have with him.


To get a Basil pup would bring heartache in more ways than one, especially as you are aware of his bad heart. Im sure you wouldn't knowingly have a pup from a line you knew had MVD problems, and this pup is no different. p.s. FWIW I dont think much of your breeder friend.

[Karlin]

Mark, it is 'magnificent seven' because they own six dogs and would be considering a 7th. There's a lovely picture of the 6 on a couch in Quinny74's introduction post.

Sandy, Basil sired a litter only a few months ago -- we are not talking about a potentially heart clear dog at 5 that sired the litter two years ago. As stated:

has quite a prominent heart murmur that he has medication for

I doubt he was fine five months ago then went into a serious murmur and CHF out of the blue. If he is ill with a murmur now and on tablets, it is a pretty serious level of heart disease given most vets don't start tablets til congestive heart failure and advanced disease. So that would mean he must have been bred with a murmur bad enough to have warranted tablets or been very close to that time. Which suggests no one was heart testing before breeding.

My understanding as well from private correspondence was that he was a rescue dog and retired breeding dog and therefore I had understood not from the best breeding situation as is, but I may have misunderstood.

[WoodHaven]

Mark, it is 'magnificent seven' because they own six dogs and would be considering a 7th.

Sandy, Basil sired a litter only a few months ago -- we are not talking about a potentially heart clear dog at 5 that sired the litter two years ago. As stated:



I doubt he was fine five months ago then went into a serious murmur and CHF out of the blue. If he is ill with a murmur now and on tablets, it is a pretty serious level of heart disease given most vets don't start tablets til congestive heart failure and advanced disease. So that would mean he must have been bred with a murmur bad enough to have warranted tablets or been very close to that time. Which suggests no one was heart testing before breeding.

My understanding as well from private correspondence was that he was a rescue dog and retired breeding dog and therefore I had understood not from the best breeding situation as is, but I may have misunderstood.

I know some cardios that would put dogs on meds asap.... and a 3 murmur may freak some people and vets out.

AND -- where does it say in the protocol that you can't breed a dog with a murmur (after age 5??),. This is one reason I don't particularly like the linear way the protocol is stated.... AFTER 5 and heart clear-- could be dead at 6. AND that would be 'ok'???????????

[Quinny74]

Thank you all for your comments. It is good to get rational, objective opinions as mine are obviously clouded by sentiment.
When we adopted Basil we were unaware of the murmur, it was only when we took him to be neutered that the vet noticed it and prescribed Fortektor.
I contacted the previous owner and they claimed to be unaware of his murmur. I can only believe them however if you hold him, the beat of his heart just doesn't feel right and I would have thought a long term breeder would have noticed this. He was also quite lethargic until he started his meds but now he has a lot more life to him.
I cannot say that the breeder knew of his problem when they bred him on this and previous times. However if I was a breeder I would probably have a routine check done for both dogs everytime I wanted to breed them.
I cannot be 100% sure of the extent of his murmur as I have not had an MRI performed but 2 vets at the practise I use have commented on it.
Part of me wouldn't mind getting a pup with a murmur as I have no intention of breeding and I know the pup would have a good life but it is too easy to get over emotional about issues such as this and I could be taking on a lot of pain for selfish, although well intentioned, reasons.

[Karlin]

You were right to inform the breeder. Any responsible breeder would be cardiologist testing their breeding dogs, or at the very least vet testing, before every mating. The fact that the murmur is so noticeable and he has been put on this drug -- and that he was lethargic beforehand -- indicates there's significant heart disease there. At the same time, good medications could give him many years with you so just give him all the care and love you can .

If this breeder is a CKCS Club member I would definitely file a complaint with the club. If they are selling these puppies on KC reg I would also file a complaint with the KC. Heart testing is the most basic element of caring breeding in this breed that is plagued with heart problems -- the breeder could not possibly be unaware of this issue in the breed! And could not possibly be unaware that she/he should have been cardiologist testing!

I would personally not give such a person a penny towards a puppy. It is just an issue of ethics, and exasperation and protest at those who care only about making money off these poor dogs. Either support rescue, or support an ethical, health focused breeder doing proper testing (Margaret C on the board can be contacted privately by PM for names of some who do so), but giving money to someone who breeds so indiscriminately just perpetuates the vile system that has caused so much suffering in the breed and sadness for the people who get these dogs and lose them at half the age they should. So many of this poor breed never even reach old age -- it is like dying of heart failure at 45.