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Bits from Bateson

This article talks about the inbreeding of wolves on Isle Royale and the resulting problems. These wolves do not have a chance on their own to stop the progression of genetic errors. The wolves arrived on Isle Royale and since that arrival there has not been any "new" wolves joining them.

Title:
Bone Deformities Linked To Inbreeding In Isle Royale Wolves

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090402171440.htm
 
I was reading an article that is very interesting by Amice Pitt (one of the founding breeders) in which she notes how narrow the gene pool was in the foundation of the breed, that the fourth generation of Cavaliers were all bred to only two dogs, who were father and son :eek: -- after the war when so many dogs had been destroyed from the large breeding kennels. She says:

"Unfortunately in the next generation the lines were all brought in and this good Black and Tan was used all the time and no outside blood used, so that in the following generation everything was sired either by Plantation Banjo or his son, Cannonhill Ritchey. This has been a misfortune to the breed as after the war there was no choice of stock for a breeding plan and the only possible course was to jump back to the source and get as near to Ann's Son as possible."

She also notes that the sire of Ann's Son (one of the founding dogs of the breed) was probably a Papillon!

This certainly is full of premonition and has come back to haunt the breed:

"In most breeds the different breeders have their own strains with different ancestors and much work can be done by studying these strains and inbreeding or outbreeding for the different family points, but we have not got the benefit of changes of blood -- we can wander a little to the right or left, but every time we get back to Ann's Son..."

She then talks about the possibility (she argues the need) of the Kennel Club changing its rules to allow for outbreeding again, I presume she is arguing to King Charles spaniels. She says:

"In the beginning it was to our advantage that the two registrations were separated. We cavalier breeders could not get on in the show ring or anywhere else until we got independence, but from a breeding point of view it was too soon and cramped our efforts, all the more so as during the war years Plantation Banjo and his son Cannonhill Ritchey were used without thought for the future.

"It would be possible to outcross to the Papillon who is a Toy Spaniel, but these experiments are very long-term, cost a lot of money and mean keeping more dogs than one wants in the kennel, which in these days of high costs is rather daunting. Even in the old days when things were much cheaper the big experimental kennel cost a lot of money, apart from the labor and time involved, and the fact that the first experiments might be a failure. The right dogs have to be found and tried out on the same nucleus of bitches before one can decide whether the individual will be the right stud dog for the job, and will not be too dominant for introduction into a breed which already is far from complete standardization. Perhaps there are some fanatical breeders among our members? I'd like to think they might take this idea up as a challenge to their perseverance and ability."

Interestingly, she wrote this for the CKCSC bulletin in 1962!! So almost 50 years ago, one of the most important founder breeders already felt there were dangers due to very close inbreeding within the breed, and that was never addressed from then to now. Then you get some breeders posting elsewhere, and the head of the KC's comments about healthy dogs from inbreeding and how you just watch the pedigrees and that grandparent to grandchild meetings are fine. But you talk to researchers who have looked at generations of pedigrees and they will note that even a 10 generation pedigree does not indicate how inbred all the dogs are in that they all keep returning to the same dogs over and over and over -- that actually, breeding cousins may be a closer level of inbreeding then closer matings might seem to be.

As an aside, Mrs Pitt makes an amazing remark about how one of the very early dogs was always unfortunate in his owners because he was always kept in poor conditions and often had sarcoptic mange!
 
Karlin said:
I was reading an article that is very interesting by Amice Pitt (one of the founding breeders) in which she notes how narrow the gene pool was in the foundation of the breed, that the fourth generation of Cavaliers were all bred to only two dogs, who were father and son :eek: -- after the war when so many dogs had been destroyed from the large breeding kennels. ...
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Karlin: I think this article by Mrs. Pitt is a very important find. I recall that within just the past week or so, on another Cavalier board, some poster stated that Mrs. Pitt must be twirling in her grave over the comments made on this board about inbreeding.

Could you tell us where we may find this article, if it is on the Internet, and if it isn't, could you scan and post it somewhere where we may retrieve it?
--
Rod Russell
 
Bits From Bateson

Karlin ,

Thank you for your Post ,I did'nt know whether I could mention the name of the Cavalier Bitch I had Posted about who had 7 Litters to her Son in the 1940's ,I saw you had mentioned her

She was

FRECKLES OF TTIWEH

and her Son

PLANTATION BANJO.





CANNONHILLHILL RICHEY

Who was the SON

Of PLANTANTATION BANJO

Was the Result of a Half Brother ,Half Sister Mating.

Plantation Banjo mated to Plantation Dusky

Plantation Banjo

his Sire

Plantation Robert

Dam Plantation Twinkles


Plantation Dusky her Sire

Plantation Robert

Dam RANGERS NICKY PICKY.who is a Mystery to us Lovers of Cavalier History .

Her Pedigree was never known about , until recently ,it was discovered her Sire was

HENTZAU BUCKS HUSSAR.

Her Dam is still unknown

If I could go on further with Plantantion Banjo and Cannonhill Richey's Pedigrees

Plantation Robert ,is the result of Mating ,between

Rangers Bimbo and Plantation Pixie.

Rangers Bimbo sire was

Peter of Ttiweh mated to Avocat Amla

Plantation Pixie 's Sire was

MARK of Ttiweh , was the Son of Peter of Ttiweh

Her dam was Blenheim Palace Palace Poppet

When I read the comments being Posted on other Lists by some Cavalier Breeders,(who claim that they know all about Cavalier Pedigrees) about the In-Breeding Discussions taking place just, I really do think that they are showing their Total Ignorance of the early In-Breeding that had happened in early days of getting our Cavalier Breed Estabished.

Finally Karlin mentioned about one of the early Cavalier Stud Dogs who had SARCOPTIC MANGE .

He was

WIZBANG TIMOTHY ,FULL LITTER BROTHER TO ANN'S SON.

Finally ,Finally, since I am still getting some Insulting Personal E-Mails from some Cavalier Breeders ,with what I have just mentioned about the Early Pedigrees of our Beloved Cavalier Breed.

I don't think I need to be Taking Any Lectures from those Breeders!!!!
 
Bits from Bateson.

Forgot to say ,I have all this Cavalier Pedigree Information from 1928 -1949 that I wrote out in 5 Generation Pedigrees ,plus other 5 Generation
Cavalier Pedigrees from that time,.

This is held at the Kennel Club Library in London.

It is under my Bet Hargreaves ...Name-Plate.
 
I sometimes wonder what other people do in the long winter evenings - I've enjoyed doing 10-generation pedigrees for the three Cavaliers I've had with pedigrees, and by the time you get back 6 or 7 generations, the inbreeding in the early days is glaringly obvious. I remember reading somewhere that our early onset MVD can be traced back to one bitch (the name wasn't given, but perhaps the one that Bet mentions).

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
Bits From Bateson

I think I can mention this Cavalier Bitch's Name because her Owner has said in Cavalier Magazine that she died at 8 years of Age from Heart Trouble
Her name is Belinda of Saxham.


I think though, the most worrying thing for the Cavalier Breed in those early days , was the use of Cavalier Dogs at Stud when their Owners knew they were suffering from Heart Trouble. They had died at around 7-8 years because of Heart Trouble.

I have sent this information to the Cardiologists Reseaching MVD in our Cavaliers.

Yes Kate H when you see the extent of the Inbreeding in Cavaliers in those early days , it was horrendous.

Remember though ,in the 50's- 60's -70's and even in the 1980's the was still half brother to half sister Matings going on, even closer than that in the 70's,and as the Experts now say Grand-Mother to Grand son and Grand Father to Grand - Daughter has been carried out by Cavalier Breeders is IN -Breeding ,the Mind Boggles!
 
I try not to get involved in some of the more contentious posts on this forum; but I would like to point out that any Cavalier enthusiast/exhibitor/breeder worth their salt, will know the breed history intimately. Some individuals are still around who actually knew Amice Pitt. Anything written by her and any other stalwart from the early days will have been read discussed and inwardly digested.

To try and suggest that cavalier people do not know their breed's history or how narrow a gene pool Cavaliers came from, and the problems that have developed because of this, is ridiculous.
Among many more interesting facts, it is well known that the sire of Ann's son was Papillon, and his full brother, Wizbang Timothy, was also a good stud dog, but was kept in poor condition.
Cavalier breeder enthusiasts who are trying to improve the breed and who health test their stock, also know their lines intimately. They are not saying "All my dogs are free from problems, and what is more I am burying my head in the sand" They know it is an uphill struggle, but at least they are trying. It's not going to happen overnight, so stop knocking them and trying to portray them as fools!
 
Sue,
You are right to say that we breeders are very aware of the early close matings in the breed.
I have wholecolours, which, because of their numbers have, even in modern times, always had less diversity than the Particolours, so I have to be even more vigilant re hearts.
My vigilance must have borne some fruit, since, I had a call from Anne French today, who wishes to come to my house and take DNA from my 3 elderly bitches who will be 12 years old on 3rd March(2 sisters) and 28th March respectively.

Anne is presently employed at the University of Edinburgh as a Cardiologist.
These bitches, whom she tested in October, are of interest to her current research programme because of the excellence of their hearts.
They also form the basis of my breeding stock.
Elspeth Glen, Sandbrae Cavaliers, Scotland
 
Bits From Bateson

OK Yorhiesue,

Why was it said that the last UK CKCS CLUB AGM, by the Cardiologist, that 50 % of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age , and that this is no better than it was 18 years ago, so what have some Cavalier Breeders been doing all this time. ?

I wonder how many Cavaliers will have died at an Early Age in that time.

Please don't quote to me the Excuse some Cavalier Breeders keep using ,that it those Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's that have the Health Problems.

If some Cavalier Breeders knew about the IN-Breeding in the Cavalier Breed in the Early Days, why did they persist in carrying on doing it.

Did they have all the Cavalier Breed Supplements that this information would come from?

Are you saying that there was no In- Breeding ,such as has been mentioned, I would gently suggest to you that you study all those Pedigress from the days when the Cavalier Breed originated.

Are you even suggesting Mrs A .Pitt ,the Founder of our Cavalier Breed was wrong in her Comments. ?

Surely Not.


Perhaps they should have taken heed of the warning they were being given about 20 years ago by the Cardiologists about the Serious MVD Heart Problem in Cavaliers.


Onto another matter ,it was great that Anne French is interested in Murphy's Cavaliers, to help with the Cavalier MVD Research.
 
Bet said:
OK Yorhiesue,

Why was it said that the last UK CKCS CLUB AGM, by the Cardiologist, that 50 % of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age , and that this is no better than it was 18 years ago, so what have some Cavalier Breeders been doing all this time. ?
A: I do not know the answer to this, except that the mode of inheritance for this disease is very complex, it is not a straight forward recessive gene. There are many breeders/exhibitors who do have long-lived lines and have strived over many years to lessen the incidence of MVD in their 'kennel'.

Please don't quote to me the Excuse some Cavalier Breeders keep using ,that it those Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's that have the Health Problems.
A: I will not mention Puppy Farms BYB if you do not wish me to do so, of course we all know they have nothing to do with poor health in cavaliers and breed wonderful specimens!

If some Cavalier Breeders knew about the IN-Breeding in the Cavalier Breed in the Early Days, why did they persist in carrying on doing it.
A: Bet, do you really think that ONLY SOME breeders knew about the IN-BREEDING? Please read my previous post properly. I stated that all enthusiast breeders know the history of cavaliers intimately.
ERGO:
If all Cavaliers come from a very tiny gene pool, then that is the sum total of what we have to work with now. Whatever any breeder does is still technically 'in-breeding'. You can't bring new genes into the pool because the just aren't there! All that can be done is to try and use the healthiest stock and breed to the healthiest. Until the genes that cause these health problems are found that is all anyone can do. If, and once the genes are found, breeding stock can be DNA tested to find if they carry the genes that cause the various health problems. It might be that all Cavaliers have these genes to a lesser or greater extent?? no-one knows.


Are you saying that there was no In- Breeding ,such as has been mentioned, I would gently suggest to you that you study all those Pedigress from the days when the Cavalier Breed originated.
A: Please refer to my earlier post, and the reply above. Where have I or anyone else said there was no in-breeding in the past? I am au-fait with many of the old cavlier pedigrees, and many recent ones.

Are you even suggesting Mrs A .Pitt ,the Founder of our Cavalier Breed was wrong in her Comments. ?
A: Where do you get the idea that I think that Amice Pitt was wrong in her comments????

She was stating exactly what had happened before,during and after the war, and what resulted from it. None of this information is new to the cavalier enthusiast, even if it is new to you and Karlin.


Perhaps they should have taken heed of the warning they were being given about 20 years ago by the Cardiologists about the Serious MVD Heart Problem in Cavaliers.
A: I think many people did. Unfortunately MVD is a very difficult disease to eradicate. I know you really have difficulty believing that, but it is true. It isn't because horrible breeders make a point of breeding unhealthy stock together to produce unhealthy puppies, just to annoy you and give you something to write about.:)
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YorkieSue, there is the version of events many breeders give on their discussion lists, and there is the truth. You, as well as other breeders who comment here and elsewhere, know how far these two regularly diverge. You seem determined to never get the point that no one is blaming ALL breeders but pointing out the problems with MANY breeders. Maybe if you took more time to read the actual posts of others and not add in your own additional assumptions, this would be clearer?

I also would gather these comments from Amice Pitt will come as an enormous surprise to many breeders -- as already I have had requests for where the full document can be found. As it was last published over a decade ago perhaps those not quite of your level of enthusiasm, and those who are younger than many in the breed, are not actually as 'au fait' with some basic breed history as you? I note in particular that recent comments from well known breeders have suggested that if only people were more familiar with Amice Pitt's views on inbreeding, it would not even be an issue. The truth is far different, as Mrs Pitt's own comments obviously indicate. She also states in this article that the surprisingly good health of the breed back in the 1960s seemed to be despite the horrible inbreeding and lack of diversity in the early breed. She also clearly argues for outcrossing, something others have been belittled about by the same breeders who supposedly know so much about Amice Pitt's opinions. :rolleyes:

And while inheritance may be complex,there are clear guidelines, and have been for over a decade, on how to reduce incidence IF FOLLOWED. Those that do breed carefully in this regard definitely reap the rewards of healthier hearts, and hats off to them. :)

However, it surprises me that you are so baffled and confused as to the reasons why Simon Swift, club cardiologist, noted there has been no improvement in 18 years in the incidence of heart disease in UK Club-bred cavaliers (let's set side your favourite red herring of blaming everything on puppy farm dogs, as this is a common Kennel Club tactic too and has no bearing on what club breeders should be doing or don't do. They are just another way in which the breed is slowly destroyed by careless breeding -- it is the same problem whether on puppy farms or in a house lined with ribbons and trophies). Allow me to have your own club chairwoman explain:

"There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals. I have tried my utmost to defend and support the breed and the club. This weekend was proof, if proof is needed, that there is no point in deluding myself, or others, that self-regulation is possible.”
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How appropriate her comments from March 2009 are to a discussion of Bateson and APGAW proposals that regulation be brought in and expanded if little change occurs.

You can easily have direct evidence that many if not most club breeders have consistently bred outside the MVD guidelines when they first start breeding a dog (and this includes the prominent show name breeders). All you need to do is go look at the dates of birth of the sire/dam and the puppies on all those pedigrees you know well. :) . Over and over, stud dogs are often bred at under 1 (much less under 2.5) and dams also are regularly bred at under 2.5, all through the years in which the MVD protocol has been in place.

Your own club chairwoman makes the reality of the situation pretty darn clear, don't you think?

Instead of arguing on further here, I will encourage you to be more productive and go argue with those breeders who are destroying this breed, their clubs, and the reputation of all breeders through their actions. As for puppy farms: one club brought back in one of your own CONVICTED show breeder puppy farmers to return to the fold as a judge in cavalier shows! So do not talk to me or other pet owners about the horrors of puppy farms as breeders themselves came out in droves to defend the woman at her trial and were quick to bring her back at the highest level. As so many of these people demonstrate, your average high school student has a better understanding of genetics and ethics than many club breeders around the world.

Anyway: I have reached the end of my tolerance level for breeders on the board, as I never set this board up for your discussions in the first place and evidence over recent years has shown that once large numbers of breeders decided to jump onto the existing pet-focused boards and discussion lists, the whole tenor of such groups changed and not usually for the better. Most of you never joined such groups, offered advice, or supported pet owners until there was an agenda to defend (with two exceptions). Some of you, since removed, were the silent club here, joining but never being a part of the community or helping people - so please don't rewrite your history elsewhere, lamenting that I don't allow most breeders on this board as you all wish to be so helpful to pet owners... yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Anyway: YorkySue, you should never have been let on as a member to begin with. Later on I decided to leave the account and see where it would go -- and it has now gone. For others: you are members of most other boards so there are many other venues in which you can participate. Two of you have made public, personal comments about this site elsewhere over many months which I had chosen to ignore and allow you to stay on here. But I no longer want you to feel you have to suffer in tolerance of a community you don't particularly seem to like. So I have decommissioned your registrations and wish you all the best in your breeding as you go forward, as I know you are people who do care about the breed. (y)
 
Bits from Bateson.

Karlin ,

Can I thank you for your Post.

I don't have a way with words, but I have always tried to get my Point across when I have been sticking up for the Cavalier Breed.

Unfortunately there are some Cavalier Breeders and only them, who think it's their God Given Right to know about the Back-Gound of our Beloved Cavalier Breed, but that's not the Case.

We Pet Folk have have now found out things about their History ,and I really do think that the In-Breeding in the Early Days maybe will have a Part to Play in the Health Problems of To-Days Cavaliers.

I have just contacted Dr S Blott, she maybe knows all about the Cavalier Pedigrees from the 1930's etc, and the In-Breeding that was taking place , I don't know ,but I believe her Pedigree Research is only involved from Kennel Club Breed Supplements from 1980.

What has made me see Red ,is the accusations that it's us Cavalier Pet Folk who are damaging the Breed.

It was said that other Breeds have Health Problem ,and their Pet Owners don't go on and on about them like what we Cavalier Pet Owners do about the Cavalier Breed

Well all I can say to that comment is, no other Breed has the Health Problems that our Cavaliers are at the Moment.

The SM Problem in Cavaliers has now been said by Professor Sir .P Bateson,Dr C Rusbridge and Others in their Recent Veterinary Paper, and Dr McMonnell ,that their Brains are too Large for their Skulls ,because of Premature Closure of their Skull,this Problem is not affecting other Dog Breeds, only the Cavalier Breed.

I have never read that 50 % of any other Breed of Dog has a Heart Murmur at 5 Years of Age.

The Data for this comes from Veterinary Cardiologists ,who over the years have been compiling Statistics on Cavaliers with MVD Murmurs of many Thousands of Cavaliers at Health Clinics held by CKCS Breed Clubs in Britain,Canada, the USA and elsewhere

From this Data they have compiled ,they have found out that the Percentage of Cavaliers which developes MVD increases at a RATE of about 10% per year .

So roughly 10% of Cavaliers by the age of 1 year have MVD MURMURS ,and 20% aged between One and Two years have Murmurs ,and so on for each age LEVEL

Specifically ,the Statistics Show that more than 50% of all Cavaliers have Murmurs ,and it is a very rare Cavalier at 10 who does not have ,at the very least ,a low Grade Heart Murmur

These MVD Figures have come from Data from CKCS Breed Club Health Clinics , they won't ,I think be any Puppy Farm Cavaliers included.

Why do some Cavalier Breeders want us Cavalier Pet Owners Gagged about the Cavalier Health Problems, what are they Scared of.
 
Subject closed on specific breeders on the board please. I also do not care to have messages crossposted from elsewhere to here (funny how the same people didn't crosspost their opinions about this board in the past from other sites where they made them, to share with all. :rolleyes:

The breeders involved are on other sites and lists and will easily remain a part of other discussions if people are interested in engaging with them there. (y)
 
Not really a Bit of Bateson, but relevant to the inbreeding/linebreeding debate, a part of an article by C A Sharp.

The Price of Popularity: Popular Sires and Population Genetics
First published in Double Helix Network News, Summer 1998

by C.A. Sharp

Consider the hypothetical case of Old Blue, Malthound extraordinaire. Blue was perfect: Sound, healthy and smart. On week days he retrieved malt balls from dawn to dusk. On weekends he sparkled in malt field and obedience trials as well as conformation shows, where he baited to--you guessed it--malt balls.

Everybody had a good reason to breed to Blue, so everybody did. His descendants trotted in his paw-prints on down through their generations. Blue died full of years and full of honor. But what people didn't know was that Old Blue, good as he was, carried a few bad genes. They didn't affect him, nor the vast majority of his immediate descendants. To complicate the matter further, some of those bad genes were linked to genes for important Malthound traits.

A few Malthounds with problems started showing up. They seemed isolated, so everyone assumed it was 'just one of those things.' A few declared them 'no big deal.' Those individuals usually had affected dogs. All in all, folks carried on as usual.

Time passed. More problem dogs turned up. People made a point not to mention the problems to others because everyone knows the stud owner always blames the bitch for the bad things and takes credit for the good. Stud owners knew it best to keep quiet so as not to borrow trouble. Overall, nobody did anything to get to the bottom of the problems, because if they were really significant, everybody would be talking about it, right?

Years passed. Old Blue had long since moldered in his grave. By now, everyone was having problems, from big ones like cataracts, epilepsy or thyroid disease to less specific things like poor keepers, lack of mothering ability and short life-span. 'Where can I go to get away from this?' breeders wondered. The answer was nowhere.

People became angry. 'The responsible parties should be punished!' Breeders who felt their programs might be implicated stonewalled. Some quietly decided to shoot, shovel and shut up. A few brave souls stood up and admitted their dogs had a problem and were hounded out of the breed.

The war raged on, with owners, breeders and rescue workers flinging accusations at each other. Meanwhile everybody carried on as always. After another decade or two the entire Malthound breed collapsed under the weight of its accumulated genetic debris and went extinct.

This drastic little fable is an exaggeration--but not much of one.............
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Summing up

Not a quote from the Bateson Report but an article from a columnist in this week's Dog World paper entitled " Where are the fault lines now?"

In it the writer says......

"We seem almost to take it as read that the long standing charges made by our critics have been proved to be well founded. Of course most people would use language rather more diplomatic than mine but the fact remains that the dog world has, pretty much, been found guilty as charged"


http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Features/06-Colwill.aspx?year=2010&month=02

Well worth a read.
 
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