Page 1 of 23 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 229

Thread: In- Breeding and CKCS.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,592
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    15

    Default In- Breeding and CKCS.

    I hope it's OK starting this as a New Thread,.

    I contacted Dr Helmuth Wachtel in Austria to-day about the In-Breeding in our Cavalier Breed. I had been involved with him a number of years ago ,when he was comparing the Pedigrees of the British Cavaliers with MVD with those Cavaliers' Pedigrees in Austria with the same Problem .

    At that time he replied to me ,saying that he was convinced that the In- Breeding in Cavaliers had caused their MVD Problem.

    I had asked him to-day ,what were his views about the In-Breeding in Cavaliers ,and giving him the details about it in the 30's and 40's etc.

    Here's his Reply.

    To attain New conformation needs More line/In-breeding

    Dog Breeds are a Cultural Heritage and should not be subjected to such changes

    If Population Genetics would have known Earlier .

    A Breeding System such has the Present One would not have been possible


    In -Breeding and Line Breeding leads to loss of Genetic Diversity ,meaning lacking tools to keep an Organism Healthy,Vital and Enduring owning to many Genes(Allele) providing Enzymes and Proteins that are tools for that Goal.

    Loss of Diversity produces Short Life-Spans ,Increased Infections ,and often Horrible Inherited Diseases .

    Mrs A. Pitt, the Founder of the Cavalier Breed ,were her comments made in 1957 also slighter later, that the Cavalier Breeders in those early days of the Cavalier Breed ,were Breeding Cavaliers with no thought as to the Future of the CavalierBreed,had this information maybe been learned from her Father ,who was a Geneticist.

    Bet(Hargreaves)
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Sion, Switzerland
    Posts
    868
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Bet,

    This in no way advances any useful argument. The negatives effects of inbreeding are well established.

    Mrs A. Pitt, the Founder of the Cavalier Breed ,were her comments made in 1957 also slighter later, that the Cavalier Breeders in those early days of the Cavalier Breed ,were Breeding Cavaliers with no thought as to the Future of the CavalierBreed,had this information maybe been learned from her Father ,who was a Geneticist.
    This makes an interesting point, although not the one you intend. You are saying that in 1957 a daughter of a geneticist (who presumably had better understanding than the general public about these matters) had sufficient knowledge of genetics to criticize the breeding methods from past decades. It isn't fair to judge the past based on today's knowledge.

    I don't believe that early breeders had no thought of the future of breed, I do think that they may have inadvertently created dogs who were not as healthy due to inbreeding. Only the most basic knowledge of genetics and inheritance would have been available to early breeders, any traits influenced by multiple genes, or with atypical modes of inheritance would have been impossible for breeders to account for. If you refer back to discussions about a book published around the turn of the century, I made a comment about how baffled breeders were by coat color inheritance in the book. Coat colors are determined by simple Mendelian genetics, this is taught to gradeschool children now. MVD and SM don't have known genes even today, because these don't follow simple modes of inheritance.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    23,882
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    15

    Default

    Did you see the post I made that quoted from Amice Pitt back in 1962? She herself said that breeders unfortunately bred "with no thought for the future" after WWII when there were few dogs remaining from the original kennels. They would have known at that time that breeding solely to two sires for pretty much an entire generation -- all bred to just a father and son -- was highly problematical for the future of the breed, but they chose to do it anyway; she also laments that breeders stopped bringing in King Charles inbreeding programmes and said this was decided too early because it was to the advantage of showing. That is why she was arguing in the early 60s that outbreeding would likely be of benefit to the breed -- to papillons or King Charles spaniels. Unfortunately KCs these days have their own very serious problems including hydrocephalus and SM so would not be a good choice for what Mrs Pitt calls "fresh blood".

    There's actually a pretty good idea of which clusters of genes are likely responsible for SM and hopefully that problem will be cracked. But there is good evidence that certain approaches to breeding greatly reduce the incidence and onset age of MVD -- certainly no one would ever recommend breeding affected dogs with heart murmurs before age 5, for example.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Cork,Ireland.
    Posts
    2,561
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    click here to view an article on Amice Pitt written By Ann Marie Rasmussen in Universal cavalier magazine.
    It contains a lot of early history of the cavalier breed and has references to the source material if anyone wishes to research it.

    Sins

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Hatfield, Herts, UK
    Posts
    2,699
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    20

    Default

    A clever breeder and one with foresight.

    Those breeders were left with very little choice for their breeding programme.
    Now of course, with the knowledge of how tightly bred the original cavaliers were ( only two stud dogs throughout the war ), it is difficult to see how close line breeding can be justified.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    127
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Yes the War Years were dreadful but lets not forget that Amice PITT started off as a BREEDER before 1927 and seemingly did not, initially really enjoy the Showing aspect. She was all to do with experimenting with dogs to see which specimens produced puppies of type - with the desired longer nose ! One only has to look at the early pedigrees to see how close the IN-BREEDING was and how Mums were repeatedly mated with their Sons etc etc. One example is FRECKLES OF TTIWEH who is said to have had seven litters.

    It therefore follows that if her (and others) attempts to create the Breed were focused on unhealthy dogs - then the CKCS breed was destined to failure and by the time the War came about, what was left, was possibly very contaminated and to use them over and over again, may have caused even more harm.

    So, its all very well making comments in the 60/70's but she had had over 30 years of attempting to get it right.

    No doubt a dear and lovely Lady but this is what happens when humans mess about with animals and try to create a certain style of specimen ? Her Grandfather was a renowned Artist so perhaps it was in her genes, to capture that perfect vision of perfection ?

    YES, she and others may well have kept the Breed going - but at what cost to the dogs of today ?
    Last edited by MARK MARSHALL; 28th January 2010 at 09:44 AM. Reason: Additional final line.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,592
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    15

    Default

    ,Sins, Thank -you for the Link, I had never seen it before. I do hope I am being a Pain in The Neck!! to the others on the List, but the History of the Cavalier Breed is of such interest to me.

    Can I through this Thread maybe give some more Snippits about our Cavaliers.

    There are still AMICE PITT RALLIES, held here in in Britain in her Memory. At one time she stayed in Scotland with Mrs Keswick who had the Pargeter Affix.To add a wee bit History to our Cavalier Breed ,at one time Margaret Barnes was Kennel Maid with the Pargeter Kennels .

    Later in her life Margaret and her Mother mated ,which I believe would be the first mating between a Cocker Spaniel ,SUNTOP JOYFUL. and a Cavalier Spaniel ,CRESTBY CANDLELIGHT.This was in the early 1950's .

    I'm rambling now ,so back to the Foundation Cavaliers.in our Breed,I will reiterate again what Karlin mentioned that Mrs A.Pitt said .

    ALL PEDIGREES GO BACK TO ANN'S SON,unfortunately the Breed can wander a.little to the Right or Left ,but every time you arrive back at Ann's Son.

    The Cavalier Breed was formed by 6 Stud Dogs.

    Ann's Son,I do wonder about him though, in his Life-Time he only seem to have Sired 11 Litters.born 29-4-1927...?

    Wizbang Timothy .Ann's Son 's Litter Brother Ditto

    Carlo of Ttiweh Born-- 5-6-1929

    Duce of Braemore BORN 4-8-1930

    Aristide of Ttiweh born--28-1-1936.

    Kobba of Korunda Born-30-5-1928

    I really do wonder how many of to-day's Cavalier Breeders have been interested enough to go back to the early In-Breeding of those Days when planning their Breeding Programs,

    Certainly ,there was a shortage of Cavalier Breeding Stock during the War, but was the In- Breeding in the 1930's a part to play of the Cavaliers' Health Problems of to-day.

    Mrs A. Pitt ,would no doubt be aware of the In-Breeding being done at time, and maybe that was why she made her Comment in later years about the Cavalier Breeding being done in the 1940's .

    What should be being considered I believe, is it not the Cavalier Breeders who were Close Breeding in the 1960's -70's -80's, who are more involved than any-body for the Health Problems in Cavaliers, in that they did not Study the Early In- Breeding of the Cavalier Breed .

    If they had taken the time to check back on those Early In-Bred Cavalier Pedigrees,maybe the Cavalier Breed would not be in the mess it's in to-day, Health Wise.


    Bet (Hargreaves)
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Coventry UK
    Posts
    1,788
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    If an outcross is ultimately the only answer, the best one might be the Kooikerhondje from (I think) Holland - they are derived from the same medieval spaniels as the Cavalier, and are still very like the larger spaniels seen in old paintings. They also have a similar temperament, though being gundogs they are more energetic. There aren't huge numbers of them in this country (I have met a couple, and liked them), but I think there are still a lot in Europe - though I don't know how big their gene pool is, as continental breeds suffered badly in WW2. They also suffer from luxating patellas and cataracts (and a couple of other things that Cavaliers don't yet have!) - but outcrossing to any breed is going to complicate the health scene!

    Kate, Oliver and Aled

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,592
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    15

    Default

    Yes Kate H , out -crossing might be the way the Cavalier Breed might have to go , if the Purists don't like that, well tough , but for the rest of us ,who only wan't our Cavaliers to have the Chance of Healthier , Longer Lives , now that so many of us now know about the In- Breeding that has been involved with the Cavalier Breed,out-crossing maybe will be the Answer.

    Any-Body got any thoughts about this. ?

    I know we all love the Cavaliers the way they are, but if they have to have a Future ,maybe this could be the only this way this can happen.

    Bet(Hargreaves)
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Cork,Ireland.
    Posts
    2,561
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I would think an outcross would be an absolute last resort.
    I think it was you Bet who mentioned the Suntop cockers in the early 1950s.Is there any evidence to suggest that descendents of the Suntop breeding have a lower incidence of SM or MVD? I've never seen or heard it being discussed.
    However numerically,the cavalier is a "strong" breed and even though the genepool is relatively narrow there's every chance that enough truly healthy cavaliers exist to enable the breed to improve healthwise over the coming generations.I'd love to see CM free cavaliers being identified and hopefully some with excellent heart status being incorporated into the genepool even if they're not very good show specimens.
    If as Karlin says,the clusters of genes responsible for SM are being narrowed down,hopefully it will lead to the development of testing kits to predict the likelihood of syrinx formation.Yes it detracts from the sporting aspect of dog breeding but what else is there to help solve the problem?
    One recent example is the development of test for scoliosis.Traditionally children who developed spinal curvature in adolescence either wore a back brace or had extensive spinal surgery to correct the defect.Now after decades of research medical science has taken the scoliosis screening process even further, down to the genetic level. In September 08, a research group in Utah announced that they had discovered specific genetic markers that could predict the occurrence and severity of scoliosis.The kit was developed by utilizing a genome wide association study that identified a panel of 53 genetic markers associated with severe curve progression. This scoliosis research involved collecting DNA samples from over 9,500 patients from 85 clinical sites throughout the world.Basically it can predict the likelihood of developing a severe deformity occurring based on the number of specific markers being present.Adolescent scoliosis is also a complex multifactorial disorder so I refuse to give up hope that cavalier breeders will need to outcross and lose any of the cavalier characteristics.
    Sins

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •