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In- Breeding and CKCS.

Although it is in many breeds and clubs, crossbreeding is not absolutely forbidden in ALL dog breeding and breed clubs. These clubs still do call their dogs purebreds, so that definition is not set in stone as being pureblood by ancestry.

The Jack Russel Terrier Club of America allows in first generation crosses, as long as they have passed evaluation, as do some of the American Border Collie clubs and registries. I'm sure there are others.

I'm in no way suggesting, at this time, the crossbreeding of Cavaliers, not when so much has been put into the EBVs, but wanted to point this out.

Oreo
 
Noting that Sarah Blott feels the Cavalier breed can be rescued through selective breeding (for health). My question is can both MVD and SM be eliminated following this protocol? or is it more a case of the best the breed can hope for is a reduction in MVD and SM?
 
Oreo said:
Although it is in many breeds and clubs, crossbreeding is not absolutely forbidden in ALL dog breeding and breed clubs. These clubs still do call their dogs purebreds, so that definition is not set in stone as being pureblood by ancestry.

The Jack Russel Terrier Club of America allows in first generation crosses, as long as they have passed evaluation, as do some of the American Border Collie clubs and registries. I'm sure there are others.
Click to expand...

Oreo,

You're absolutely right. The American Border Collie Association's open studboook was a main reason why they refused to join the AKC as the parent club of the breed. I was referring to large KC's UKC, AKC, and others where purebred dogs can only come from 2 registered parents.
 
Clairelou said:
Noting that Sarah Blott feels the Cavalier breed can be rescued through selective breeding (for health). My question is can both MVD and SM be eliminated following this protocol? or is it more a case of the best the breed can hope for is a reduction in MVD and SM?
Click to expand...

The way these protocols are set up is by selecting the dogs to breed for the future generation from the current generation (I realize that is a no-brainer), if you can imagine the current population as being represented by a bell curve (animals at one end are of lowest breeding quality, animals in the middle are mediocre, and animals at the other end are of highest breeding quality). By choosing dogs who are of the best quality currently available and breeding those we can shift the entire curve so that the animals who were of highest quality before are now of mediocre quality.

This is the exact same principle used for breeding for looks, but applied to health. MVD and SM will not be eliminated quickly (if ever), but prevalence of the diseases can be reduced. If half as many dogs were affected would it be worth doing? Yes (in my opinion). And what's more, those dogs who are half as likely to be diagnosed can be used to further reduce these diseases.

What's important to avoid is a situation where you are so restrictive about which dogs are bred that the population hits a bottle-neck and the potential for new genetic diseases to crop up is high.
 
One thing to note is along with Health Test Results that also Cheek Swabs are being sent in and stored. Later when DNA Researchers find the genes and develop a cost effective DNA test, it is then that all the stored DNA Cheek Swabs will be tested and the results entered into the Program as Genomic Breeding Values (geBVs). It is only then that the heritable diseases can be eliminated from the breed and by still ulilising the Program will take into account the gene pool and help avoid potential problems.
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Oreo,I just can't thankyou enough for this information.I got the Files from Margaret Barnes who did the Cavalier, Cocker Spaniel Mating, a few years ago, along with photos etc.

I know I can't say ,I rest my case, but for ages I always wished if only a Cavalier with the Cocker Spaniel and Cavalier Mating could be MRI Scanned ,to see if there was a Problem

Now there is one with ,with no CM and SM.

I know this is early ,early days, but it is sure food for thought.

Thanks again

Bet(Hargreaves)
 
As far as the UK KC allowing outcrosses is concerned, there was some interesting history of the Affenpinscher in last week's Our Dogs breed notes. A group of people in this country started trying to establish the breed in the UK in the 1970s. In 1975 a champion bitch was imported from the US; it was hoped she was in whelp when she arrived, but she wasn't. Because there was no male Affenpinscher in the UK, the KC gave permission for her to be mated to a Miniature Pinscher, and she produced one bitch puppy. I think the rule is that if an outcross is made, the offspring of the resulting puppies are considered purebred within 3 generations as long as they are mated back to the original breed and conform to the breed standard. There is a lot of discussion in the breed notes and articles at the moment about outcrossing other breeds to avoid health issues - dalmations are one.

The real problem with outcrossing, of course, is the risk of introducing new diseases into the Cavalier gene pool, or while trying to avoid SM, doubling up on other existing diseases. Cockers, for instance, overlap with Cavaliers on patellas, progressive retinal atrophy and (yes!) heart disease. Papillons, another possibility as they too are descended from medieval spaniels (very obvious in the drop-eared phalenes), share patella and eye problems.

The frying pan and the fire come to mind!

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
Good for you Bet on getting the files from Margaret Barnes.
I've no doubt you thoroughly enjoyed seeing the photos etc...
As for the bitch who had the excellent scan,while it is fantastic,be mindful of the old saying
"One swallow doesn't make a summer"...
Sins
 
Some people have mentioned the "Kooikerhondje" as a possible out-cross. Although they have the "look" of a Cavalier they have the exact opposite temperment of a Cavalier. These dogs were used to create the Nova Scotia Duck Toller and unfortunately the Kookier temperment was passed along. It would be a shame to sacrifice the beautiful Cavalier temperment.
 
Marjorie said:
Some people have mentioned the "Kooikerhondje" as a possible out-cross. Although they have the "look" of a Cavalier they have the exact opposite temperment of a Cavalier. These dogs were used to create the Nova Scotia Duck Toller and unfortunately the Kookier temperment was passed along. It would be a shame to sacrifice the beautiful Cavalier temperment.
Click to expand...

A very good point.
 
This is what I have wondered for a long time ,if only a Cavalier going back to the Cocker Spaniel --Cavalier Mating could be found and MRI Scanned, what could it tell.

Well now we know ,this particular Cavalier going back to the Mating I mentioned, had no CM or SM.

The question now is ,is this because the Cocker Spaniel Genes this Cavalier must still have , there must still be some in the Cavalier

Elvenhome Charmeuse and,had no CM, yet I think the figure has been given that about 90% of Cavaliers do have CM.

At least though , it can now be said that a Cavalier going back to the Cocker Spaniel---Cavalier rmating had no SM or CM.

This is all I ever wanted to find out about....And it has been proved.No CM or SM

I would guess it's now up to the Researchers to make what they can of this information.

Oreo mentioned that there could be a good number of Cavaliers in Australia with the Genes from this Mating, it's also been mentioned that Cavalier Breeders in Australia,have not seen much CM/SM in their Cavaliers ,could this be the reason.

Bet(Hargreaves)
 
Some other problems with kooikerhondje -- sounds a bit too familiar!

Health



A kooikerhondje
Kooikers have good appetites and a tendency to put on weight easily. They have a relatively small genetic base, so hereditary diseases are somewhat prevalent. These include:
von Willebrand's disease, a blood clotting disorder
Cataracts
Patellar luxation
Epilepsy
Hereditary Necrotizing Myelopathy, a degenerative disease similar to Multiple sclerosis
Click to expand...

from Wikipedia. They are clearly one of the general spaniel breeds related to the historical version of the CKCS... wonder if cavaliers were used in the 40s to rebuild/reconstruct the breed? They are very pretty.
 
I'm not going down the avenue about what Breed could maybe help Cavaliers and their SM problem , just so Pleased a Cavalier has been found going back to the Cocker Spaniel ----Cavalier Mating.

This is always what I hoped could be found out about.Now it has ,and I can always say ,that there is a Cavalier from that Mating and has no CM/SM.This is for my own satisfaction.

Bet(Hargreaves)
 
Many breeds have an undercoat, including Cocker Spaniels. That is one of the things that makes Cavaliers unique. IF a breed were to be considered as a "crossing in" prospect, the color and undercoating could be worked out in a few generations. Good competent knowledgeable breeders would get this figured out, and no-one but these would have any business attempting such a project. Temperament is a taller order and would pose more difficulty as that is the true perfection of the Cavalier breed.

I think the EBV program should be fully and completely explored before any more drastic type decisions are made.

Bet, from what I can see Suntop Joyful (amongst many others) is behind many in the Elvenhome line of cavaliers. Many Elvenhome have been MRId, and I know they are included in the information which determines EBVs. I agree, it would be interesting to see Australian MRI results, but that Cocker female was soooo far back her genes would be well mixed with all others by now. I'll link some reverse pedigrees of her descendents, and you'll see she contributed to pedigrees that went back to Europe as well. On World Pedigrees I noticed she goes into some Maxholt and Charlottetown dogs.

http://dhvg.ckcs-kcs.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/reverse_EN.pl?op=tree&index=e2bI9709&gens=5&db=CKCS.dbw

http://dhvg.ckcs-kcs.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/reverse_EN.pl?op=tree&index=2Yr2s783&gens=5&db=CKCS.dbw

http://dhvg.ckcs-kcs.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/reverse_EN.pl?op=tree&index=G6Zc044&gens=5&db=CKCS.dbw

http://dhvg.ckcs-kcs.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/reverse_EN.pl?op=tree&index=41eD8f6&gens=5&db=CKCS.dbw

I'm curious, Bet, cuz you mentioned the information and photos you have, what was her coloring?

Oreo
 
Just out of interest about Kooikerhondje I'll chip into the topic.

William of Orange had Kooikerhondje and he did some military campaigns with John Churchill (First Duke of Marlbourgh and of Battle of Blenheim fame), and as both had a common interests in dogs and hunting I feel they may have spent some time together doing that. Back then cross breeding was common and breeding tended to be mostly aimed towards function, and who knows what might have happened between some doggies.

Here is some timelines for some thought.

28 December 1688
William Of Orange rode in London with John Churchill (later to become The First Duke Of Marlborough).

22 January 1689
English Parliament formally invite William Of Orange and his wife Queen Mary to become joint sovereigns of England. This was the date of the Declaration Of Rights.

1690
In Ireland under King William Of Orange, John Churchill brought all south western Ireland under English control.

19 March 1702
King William III of England, and he at the same time was also King William Of Orange ruler of The Netherlands, died today after a fall from his horse whilst riding at Hampton Court. His successor in England will be Queen Anne sister of the late Queen Mary. His death threw The Netherlands into turmoil as nobles battled for the thrown.

13 August 1704
The French were on the march to take Vienna by force. John Churchill at a small Bavarian town called Blenheim stopped them and inflicted a crushing defeat to the French, this was so devastating that it was the turning point in The War Of Spanish Succession. English Queen Anne after this gave John Churchill the title of The First Duke Of Marlborough and commissioned a palace for John to be built in England and was to be known as Blenheim Palace, and where the palace name came from the Bavarian town where the Battle Of Blenheim took place.

Well I think this doggie looks interesting.

Kooikerhondje.jpg

.
 
Oreo said:
I think the EBV program should be fully and completely explored before any more drastic type decisions are made.
Click to expand...
Oreo I go along with what you mentioned and with what Sarah Blott mentioned about her EBV Program which includes the following from this address.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/ebv/genetic_study.html

Early estimates of the heritability of SM suggest it is around 0.7-0.8* or that 70-80% of the variation between individuals is genetic in origin and about 20-30% is environmental. In the case of SM not much is known about the environmental influences and these may include in-utero or developmental effects. The heritability is sufficiently high, however, that genetic selection against the disease should be very successful. Heritabilities for Chiari Malformation, Cerebellar Herniation and Medullary Kinking are also very high. Genetic correlations between these traits and SM are positive and, interestingly, less than one. This suggests that different genes may be controlling SM and CM and that it will be possible to select against SM even if dogs have the malformation (CM).
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Thank you Oreo, for the links for the Pedigrees.

Suntop Joyful , Cocker Spaniel was Black and White, Bitch, Crest by Candlelight,Cavalier, B/T.

How my interest in this started was ,as I have mentioned ,I all the Kennel Club Breed Supplements from 1920 for Cavaliers ,but at that time they were known as King Charles Spaniels. I believe the Cavaliers were registered in 1945 separately by the KC .

When I was looking at the Breed Supplements, I noticed the Name of SUNTOP PEGGOTY ,was given as a Cross Breed, was able to trace out her History and met up with Margaret Barnes.

Margaret Barnes and her Mother were keen to improve certain Characteristics in the Cavalier Breed.

Such as Soundness, Mouths, Flat SKulls , Dark Eyes and Pigment.That was why they carried out this mating with Suntop Joyful and Crest by Candlelight

It must have had success ,because 4 Generations Later ,4 Winning Cavaliers in all 4 Colours had won Researve Challenge Certificates.

The Desired Characteristics having been achieved and fixed

I know of only this one Mating between a Cocker Spaniel and a Cavalier.

I was told though by a Geneticist ,that if you take a Pinch of Sand ,it does not matter how often it is diluted ,there will still be a Grain of Sand Left.

Could this be why the Australian Cavalier we have been discussing ,going back to this Mating still has some-thing in the Gene Make-Up going back to the Cocker Spaniel .

What would be interesting now ,is for other Cavaliers going back to the Cocker Spaniel Mating ,being MRI Scanned , and see if they are carrying this Cocker Gene. ,that is maybe producing no CM/SM

Does any-body know if Cocker Spaniels are suffering much from SM to-day?

Bet (Hargreaves)
 
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