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In- Breeding and CKCS.

Bet

Well-known member
I hope it's OK starting this as a New Thread,.

I contacted Dr Helmuth Wachtel in Austria to-day about the In-Breeding in our Cavalier Breed. I had been involved with him a number of years ago ,when he was comparing the Pedigrees of the British Cavaliers with MVD with those Cavaliers' Pedigrees in Austria with the same Problem .

At that time he replied to me ,saying that he was convinced that the In- Breeding in Cavaliers had caused their MVD Problem.

I had asked him to-day ,what were his views about the In-Breeding in Cavaliers ,and giving him the details about it in the 30's and 40's etc.

Here's his Reply.

To attain New conformation needs More line/In-breeding

Dog Breeds are a Cultural Heritage and should not be subjected to such changes

If Population Genetics would have known Earlier .

A Breeding System such has the Present One would not have been possible


In -Breeding and Line Breeding leads to loss of Genetic Diversity ,meaning lacking tools to keep an Organism Healthy,Vital and Enduring owning to many Genes(Allele) providing Enzymes and Proteins that are tools for that Goal.

Loss of Diversity produces Short Life-Spans ,Increased Infections ,and often Horrible Inherited Diseases .

Mrs A. Pitt, the Founder of the Cavalier Breed ,were her comments made in 1957 also slighter later, that the Cavalier Breeders in those early days of the Cavalier Breed ,were Breeding Cavaliers with no thought as to the Future of the CavalierBreed,had this information maybe been learned from her Father ,who was a Geneticist.

Bet(Hargreaves)
 
Bet,

This in no way advances any useful argument. The negatives effects of inbreeding are well established.

Mrs A. Pitt, the Founder of the Cavalier Breed ,were her comments made in 1957 also slighter later, that the Cavalier Breeders in those early days of the Cavalier Breed ,were Breeding Cavaliers with no thought as to the Future of the CavalierBreed,had this information maybe been learned from her Father ,who was a Geneticist.

This makes an interesting point, although not the one you intend. You are saying that in 1957 a daughter of a geneticist (who presumably had better understanding than the general public about these matters) had sufficient knowledge of genetics to criticize the breeding methods from past decades. It isn't fair to judge the past based on today's knowledge.

I don't believe that early breeders had no thought of the future of breed, I do think that they may have inadvertently created dogs who were not as healthy due to inbreeding. Only the most basic knowledge of genetics and inheritance would have been available to early breeders, any traits influenced by multiple genes, or with atypical modes of inheritance would have been impossible for breeders to account for. If you refer back to discussions about a book published around the turn of the century, I made a comment about how baffled breeders were by coat color inheritance in the book. Coat colors are determined by simple Mendelian genetics, this is taught to gradeschool children now. MVD and SM don't have known genes even today, because these don't follow simple modes of inheritance.
 
Did you see the post I made that quoted from Amice Pitt back in 1962? She herself said that breeders unfortunately bred "with no thought for the future" after WWII when there were few dogs remaining from the original kennels. They would have known at that time that breeding solely to two sires for pretty much an entire generation -- all bred to just a father and son -- was highly problematical for the future of the breed, but they chose to do it anyway; she also laments that breeders stopped bringing in King Charles inbreeding programmes and said this was decided too early because it was to the advantage of showing. That is why she was arguing in the early 60s that outbreeding would likely be of benefit to the breed -- to papillons or King Charles spaniels. Unfortunately KCs these days have their own very serious problems including hydrocephalus and SM so would not be a good choice for what Mrs Pitt calls "fresh blood".

There's actually a pretty good idea of which clusters of genes are likely responsible for SM and hopefully that problem will be cracked. But there is good evidence that certain approaches to breeding greatly reduce the incidence and onset age of MVD -- certainly no one would ever recommend breeding affected dogs with heart murmurs before age 5, for example.
 
click here to view an article on Amice Pitt written By Ann Marie Rasmussen in Universal cavalier magazine.
It contains a lot of early history of the cavalier breed and has references to the source material if anyone wishes to research it.

Sins
 
A clever breeder and one with foresight.

Those breeders were left with very little choice for their breeding programme.
Now of course, with the knowledge of how tightly bred the original cavaliers were ( only two stud dogs throughout the war ), it is difficult to see how close line breeding can be justified.
 
Yes the War Years were dreadful but lets not forget that Amice PITT started off as a BREEDER before 1927 and seemingly did not, initially really enjoy the Showing aspect. She was all to do with experimenting with dogs to see which specimens produced puppies of type - with the desired longer nose ! One only has to look at the early pedigrees to see how close the IN-BREEDING was and how Mums were repeatedly mated with their Sons etc etc. One example is FRECKLES OF TTIWEH who is said to have had seven litters.

It therefore follows that if her (and others) attempts to create the Breed were focused on unhealthy dogs - then the CKCS breed was destined to failure and by the time the War came about, what was left, was possibly very contaminated and to use them over and over again, may have caused even more harm.

So, its all very well making comments in the 60/70's but she had had over 30 years of attempting to get it right.

No doubt a dear and lovely Lady but this is what happens when humans mess about with animals and try to create a certain style of specimen ? Her Grandfather was a renowned Artist so perhaps it was in her genes, to capture that perfect vision of perfection ?

YES, she and others may well have kept the Breed going - but at what cost to the dogs of today ?
 
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,Sins, Thank -you for the Link, I had never seen it before. I do hope I am being a Pain in The Neck!! to the others on the List, but the History of the Cavalier Breed is of such interest to me.

Can I through this Thread maybe give some more Snippits about our Cavaliers.

There are still AMICE PITT RALLIES, held here in in Britain in her Memory. At one time she stayed in Scotland with Mrs Keswick who had the Pargeter Affix.To add a wee bit History to our Cavalier Breed ,at one time Margaret Barnes was Kennel Maid with the Pargeter Kennels .

Later in her life Margaret and her Mother mated ,which I believe would be the first mating between a Cocker Spaniel ,SUNTOP JOYFUL. and a Cavalier Spaniel ,CRESTBY CANDLELIGHT.This was in the early 1950's .

I'm rambling now ,so back to the Foundation Cavaliers.in our Breed,I will reiterate again what Karlin mentioned that Mrs A.Pitt said .

ALL PEDIGREES GO BACK TO ANN'S SON,unfortunately the Breed can wander a.little to the Right or Left ,but every time you arrive back at Ann's Son.

The Cavalier Breed was formed by 6 Stud Dogs.

Ann's Son,I do wonder about him though, in his Life-Time he only seem to have Sired 11 Litters.born 29-4-1927...?

Wizbang Timothy .Ann's Son 's Litter Brother Ditto

Carlo of Ttiweh Born-- 5-6-1929

Duce of Braemore BORN 4-8-1930

Aristide of Ttiweh born--28-1-1936.

Kobba of Korunda Born-30-5-1928

I really do wonder how many of to-day's Cavalier Breeders have been interested enough to go back to the early In-Breeding of those Days when planning their Breeding Programs,

Certainly ,there was a shortage of Cavalier Breeding Stock during the War, but was the In- Breeding in the 1930's a part to play of the Cavaliers' Health Problems of to-day.

Mrs A. Pitt ,would no doubt be aware of the In-Breeding being done at time, and maybe that was why she made her Comment in later years about the Cavalier Breeding being done in the 1940's .

What should be being considered I believe, is it not the Cavalier Breeders who were Close Breeding in the 1960's -70's -80's, who are more involved than any-body for the Health Problems in Cavaliers, in that they did not Study the Early In- Breeding of the Cavalier Breed .

If they had taken the time to check back on those Early In-Bred Cavalier Pedigrees,maybe the Cavalier Breed would not be in the mess it's in to-day, Health Wise.


Bet (Hargreaves)
 
If an outcross is ultimately the only answer, the best one might be the Kooikerhondje from (I think) Holland - they are derived from the same medieval spaniels as the Cavalier, and are still very like the larger spaniels seen in old paintings. They also have a similar temperament, though being gundogs they are more energetic. There aren't huge numbers of them in this country (I have met a couple, and liked them), but I think there are still a lot in Europe - though I don't know how big their gene pool is, as continental breeds suffered badly in WW2. They also suffer from luxating patellas and cataracts (and a couple of other things that Cavaliers don't yet have!) - but outcrossing to any breed is going to complicate the health scene!

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
Yes Kate H , out -crossing might be the way the Cavalier Breed might have to go , if the Purists don't like that, well tough , but for the rest of us ,who only wan't our Cavaliers to have the Chance of Healthier , Longer Lives , now that so many of us now know about the In- Breeding that has been involved with the Cavalier Breed,out-crossing maybe will be the Answer.

Any-Body got any thoughts about this. ?

I know we all love the Cavaliers the way they are, but if they have to have a Future ,maybe this could be the only this way this can happen.

Bet(Hargreaves)
 
I would think an outcross would be an absolute last resort.
I think it was you Bet who mentioned the Suntop cockers in the early 1950s.Is there any evidence to suggest that descendents of the Suntop breeding have a lower incidence of SM or MVD? I've never seen or heard it being discussed.
However numerically,the cavalier is a "strong" breed and even though the genepool is relatively narrow there's every chance that enough truly healthy cavaliers exist to enable the breed to improve healthwise over the coming generations.I'd love to see CM free cavaliers being identified and hopefully some with excellent heart status being incorporated into the genepool even if they're not very good show specimens.
If as Karlin says,the clusters of genes responsible for SM are being narrowed down,hopefully it will lead to the development of testing kits to predict the likelihood of syrinx formation.Yes it detracts from the sporting aspect of dog breeding but what else is there to help solve the problem?
One recent example is the development of test for scoliosis.Traditionally children who developed spinal curvature in adolescence either wore a back brace or had extensive spinal surgery to correct the defect.Now after decades of research medical science has taken the scoliosis screening process even further, down to the genetic level. In September 08, a research group in Utah announced that they had discovered specific genetic markers that could predict the occurrence and severity of scoliosis.The kit was developed by utilizing a genome wide association study that identified a panel of 53 genetic markers associated with severe curve progression. This scoliosis research involved collecting DNA samples from over 9,500 patients from 85 clinical sites throughout the world.Basically it can predict the likelihood of developing a severe deformity occurring based on the number of specific markers being present.Adolescent scoliosis is also a complex multifactorial disorder so I refuse to give up hope that cavalier breeders will need to outcross and lose any of the cavalier characteristics.
Sins
 
Bet,

When you say OUT- CROSSING, you actually mean CROSS BREEDING a Cavalier with another Toy Breed - Yes ?

It seems well decided, that within our Breed one cannot really Out - Cross as the stock is too closely related and therefore all breeding is basically Line - Breeding to one degree or another and some can be so close as to become In - Breeding ?

In my opinon Crossing with another Breed is a hugh decision and not one for you, me or other beginners to make.

Mark Marshall.
 
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If I could go back to Mark Marshall's Post about Mrs Amice Pitt .,The Founder of the Cavalier Breed.

I .am sure like other Lovers of the History of our Cavaliers, will have been so distressed to have read his Comments.

I had been involved a few years ago in a wee bit of Research helping Bruce Field write his Book,

The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.

In -fact Bruce had been given many of Mrs Pitt's Personal Papers and Letters from Mrs Jane Bowler ,Mrs Pitt's Daughter,to Research for his Book. I was also able to see them ,that was when I discovered the Letter from Mrs Pitt saying that ANN'S SON was born in 1924. In contrast to the Kennel Club 's Breed Supplement date 27-4-1927.

For me it was great Privilege to read at first hand , information about Mrs Pitt,.and about the back-ground of what was involved in trying to get the Cavalier Breed established.

So Mark, I really do think you should give an Apology to all of us , and particularly to the Memory of Mrs A Pitt.

Bet (Hargreaves)
 
Yes Kate H , out -crossing might be the way the Cavalier Breed might have to go , if the Purists don't like that, well tough , but for the rest of us ,who only wan't our Cavaliers to have the Chance of Healthier , Longer Lives , now that so many of us now know about the In- Breeding that has been involved with the Cavalier Breed,out-crossing maybe will be the Answer.

Any-Body got any thoughts about this. ?

I know we all love the Cavaliers the way they are, but if they have to have a Future ,maybe this could be the only this way this can happen.

Bet(Hargreaves)

Well Bet my thoughts are towards what Sarah Blott mentioned rather than what you mentioned, and the following is from this address.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/ebv/genetic_study.html

Early estimates of the heritability of SM suggest it is around 0.7-0.8* or that 70-80% of the variation between individuals is genetic in origin and about 20-30% is environmental. In the case of SM not much is known about the environmental influences and these may include in-utero or developmental effects. The heritability is sufficiently high, however, that genetic selection against the disease should be very successful. Heritabilities for Chiari Malformation, Cerebellar Herniation and Medullary Kinking are also very high. Genetic correlations between these traits and SM are positive and, interestingly, less than one. This suggests that different genes may be controlling SM and CM and that it will be possible to select against SM even if dogs have the malformation (CM).
.
 
Interesting posts, I love this breed and hope that it can survive and have a much healthier future. I'd be interested to hear what breeds people would consider to be most suitable for out/cross breeding with the Cavalier. Any suggestions?
 
Bet, I think maybe there's just some misinterpretation on both sides going on here, rather than a major difference of opinion. (y)

Mark, wouldn't most see a difference (at least in the context of this conversation) between outcrossing (bringing in another breed to broaden genetic diversity) and crossbreeding (making a single mating between breeds, producing crossbreed puppies)? At least, that has been how I would understand the difference in the context of the discussion -- noting that Amice Pitt talks about outcrossing and clearly means bringing in KCs or Papillons. Of course, every dog breed alive started from outcrossing -- starting with one breed and introducing one or more other breeds until they breed true -- including cavaliers. It is as you note a very complex issue with a lot of inbuilt prejudice too -- which Amice Pitt noted herself was experienced too by the breeders who tried to create a new CKCS breed from KC spaniels and some others mixed in. I think it is interesting that some breeders will selectively choose what they like about Amice Pitt's opinions on the breed -- but she very definitely was stating she thought outcrossing to papillons would help diversity and was quite alarmed by what she knew were real genetic bottlenecks in the CKCS breed history. On the other hand, my understanding is that Sarah Blott feels there is enough diversity to rescue the breed through selective breeding to reduce SM incidence -- and that this can be done for the reasons EddyAnne notes.

Thus there is a positive outlook IF people are scanning, submitting scans for the EBV work, ready to share information and use EBVs, and help toward the completion of the genome work. Scanning older cavaliers at the moment is a critical part of understanding early and late onset and finding promising lines for the EBVs, too. So there is much that every breeder can do towards a positive outcome.

I know many of the researchers feel that even with the narrow genetic confines of cavaliers, it is still far easier and faster to breed towards reduced incidence than to try and outcross to other breeds or start again to reconstruct the breed -- not least because over the decades so many breeds have run into genetic issues through the same constricted breeding practices. But looking to diversify the blood in the breed, as Amice Pitt puts it, remains a large picture, longer term issue. I just find it interesting that she already thought there was a serious issue half a century ago.

Some of the researchers familiar with the 10,000 pedigree collection say that sadly many of the older lines that had good diversity and likely would have been better for SM are now gone and that it is very hard to find dogs that have not had all the common recent lines bred into them at some point, which makes the overall SM problem much more difficult to reduce and eliminate. I wish more Irish breeders would scan as some would have remained more isolated -- indeed I know some researchers feel it is the non-show breeders who may have some of the really good dogs because they would not ever have bred their dogs to the popular sires, etc.... it is an interesting argument. You wonder if, as at the start of the breed, it might be needed to make exceptions and bring in non-pedigreed dogs - to start scanning the dogs without pedigrees and search for those that are clear, see if there are even dogs without CM amongst them, and get them brought back into the breed as Mrs Pitt said happened with an early cavalier ancestor.
 
Yes Karlin,

This is sure an interesting discussion.

What would maybe help in the Cavaliers 'SM Problem ,if it could be found out if any Cavaliers who went back to the Cavalier... Cocker Spaniel Mating had the Malformed Bone.

I know that there were some Pargeter, Maxholt ,McGoogans, Cavaliers who did.

I did contact Dr Blott to make her aware about the In-Bred Early Back -Ground our Cavalier Breed has, I expect she knows about it ,but just maybe she did'nt .

Who-ever would have thought ,that we would be discussing Mrs Pitt's words and thoughts to-day. Mark ,I guess were at cross purposes. I had got my heckles up. Sorry.

Just a wee bit more Cavalier History.This is about Cavalier Dogs who had Sired the Cavalier Winners of Challenge Certificates

Ch Daywell Roger ....73

Ch Homaranne Caption ...67

Ch Aloysius of Sunninghill ...67

Ch Pargeter Mc Bounce ...30

Ch Rosemullion of Ottermouth....38

Minstrel Boy of Maxholt ....35

Maybe It should be seriously thought about, go out -with Cavaliers that are winning in the Show Ring, and introduce Cavaliers who have different Pedigree back-Grounds.

I know this is what Dr B. Cattanach ,Geneticist ,has mentioned , MRI Scan a number of ordinary Cavaliers, and see if they have SM.

This could be so easily done.

Bet(Hargreaves)
 
One of the things that is absolutely forbidden in dog breeding is crossbreeding to other breeds. Puppies are not purebred, and can't be registered, shown...

This is less the case in the horse industry (thoroughbreds are a closed registration, but quarter horses are allowed if they are quarter horse/thoroughbred mixes; draft horses are routinely mixed to improve quality), and the cattle industry. Although there are exceptions in both industries, overall there has been an acceptance that preserving breeds may be at some point become detrimental to the breed, at which point crossbreeding becomes a better option.

I don't know that cavaliers necessitate crossbreeding at this point, however, it should be something that persists as an idea, because crossbreeding can have huge benefits. Unfortunately, it is well known that the cavalier breed suffers from having originated from a small population. And that means that all cavaliers are descended from a highly inbred population.

Perhaps a less extreme option than simply allowing crossbreeding would be to open a category for Register of Merit Cavaliers, so that interested parties could essentially recreate the breed from new lines, and only the successes would be added to the existing gene pool.

Kooikers I've never heard suggested as a breed for crossing cavs to, however, as an "old type" spaniel I think they are a potentially interesting option.
 
Just noticed the above Post ,I don't know whether it's still allowed here in Britain or not by the UK Kennel Club, but at the time of the Cavalier mating between the Cocker Spaniel and the Cavalier,I think it was after Two generations, the Off-Springs were allowed to be called Cavaliers. It's maybe different now .Any-body know.?

Bet( Hargreaves)
 
I would think an outcross would be an absolute last resort.
I think it was you Bet who mentioned the Suntop cockers in the early 1950s. Is there any evidence to suggest that descendents of the Suntop breeding have a lower incidence of SM or MVD? I've never seen or heard it being discussed.
However numerically,the cavalier is a "strong" breed and even though the genepool is relatively narrow there's every chance that enough truly healthy cavaliers exist to enable the breed to improve healthwise over the coming generations. I'd love to see CM free cavaliers being identified and hopefully some with excellent heart status being incorporated into the genepool even if they're not very good show specimens. . . . .
Sins

Karlin just made excellent points, that I don't want to take away from, but I have done some looking into the lines coming from Suntop Joyful (Cocker crossed in), and where they are. I find this stuff interesting, and wanted to share.

Her daughter is Suntop Franconia, and can be found on the AENA pedigree database. The reverse pedigree is not really complete, though, and World Pedigrees, if one has signed up (for free) shows more lines coming from her including one that produced, 6 generations on, Startop Timothy.

AENA doesn't show this, but the grand-dam of Startop Timothy, Suntop Chestnut, is daughter to Suntop Tuffet, who is the great, great grandson of Suntop Joyful.

Many of the descendent of this girl are in Australia, but some made it back to European lines that I can see. Currently she is behind many dogs of the Gaycrest and Cavashon affixes, as well as a huge number of Cavaliers from Australia.

Interestingly enough, Suntop Joyful, through Franconia, and a sixth generation descendant, Startop Timothy, is many times behind all eight great grandparents of Elvenhome Charmeuse. Elvenhome Charmeuse was the female Cavalier from Australia, scanned by Clare Rusbridge, who showed no signs of CM or SM.

If you care to look at the pedigree of Elvenhome Charmeuse it is here: http://dhvg.ckcs-kcs.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/geneal_EN.pl?op=tree&index=Abw7921&gens=5&db=CKCS.dbw

You can find Suntop Joyful's daughter, Suntop Franconia, behind Aust Ch McGoogans Abighaoil through McGoogans Sheenagh and Startop Timothy.
She is behind Aust Ch Prestonville Giv'm Beans through Aust Ch Elvenhome Tilt, and again back through Startop Timothy.

Abighaoil and Giv'm Beans are behind Charmeuse's great grandparents Elvenhome Glen Buck, Elvenhome Betula Lutea and Elvenhome GaIlardia.
Suntop Franconia is behind Braganzar Phrankincense through Braganzar Hunter and back again through Startop Timothy.
Suntop Franconia is behind Braganzar Chapeau and NZ Ch Prestonville Countably through Braganzar Hermione (and Sadie), McGoogans Mayfly, and Startop Timothy.

Just some interesting pedigree trivia.

Oreo
 
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