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Thread: In- Breeding and CKCS.

  1. #11
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    Bet,

    When you say OUT- CROSSING, you actually mean CROSS BREEDING a Cavalier with another Toy Breed - Yes ?

    It seems well decided, that within our Breed one cannot really Out - Cross as the stock is too closely related and therefore all breeding is basically Line - Breeding to one degree or another and some can be so close as to become In - Breeding ?

    In my opinon Crossing with another Breed is a hugh decision and not one for you, me or other beginners to make.

    Mark Marshall.
    Last edited by MARK MARSHALL; 28th January 2010 at 12:14 PM. Reason: Spelling etc

  2. #12
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    If I could go back to Mark Marshall's Post about Mrs Amice Pitt .,The Founder of the Cavalier Breed.

    I .am sure like other Lovers of the History of our Cavaliers, will have been so distressed to have read his Comments.

    I had been involved a few years ago in a wee bit of Research helping Bruce Field write his Book,

    The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.

    In -fact Bruce had been given many of Mrs Pitt's Personal Papers and Letters from Mrs Jane Bowler ,Mrs Pitt's Daughter,to Research for his Book. I was also able to see them ,that was when I discovered the Letter from Mrs Pitt saying that ANN'S SON was born in 1924. In contrast to the Kennel Club 's Breed Supplement date 27-4-1927.

    For me it was great Privilege to read at first hand , information about Mrs Pitt,.and about the back-ground of what was involved in trying to get the Cavalier Breed established.

    So Mark, I really do think you should give an Apology to all of us , and particularly to the Memory of Mrs A Pitt.

    Bet (Hargreaves)
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  3. #13
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    Bet, which part has offended you - I am keen to know ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    Yes Kate H , out -crossing might be the way the Cavalier Breed might have to go , if the Purists don't like that, well tough , but for the rest of us ,who only wan't our Cavaliers to have the Chance of Healthier , Longer Lives , now that so many of us now know about the In- Breeding that has been involved with the Cavalier Breed,out-crossing maybe will be the Answer.

    Any-Body got any thoughts about this. ?

    I know we all love the Cavaliers the way they are, but if they have to have a Future ,maybe this could be the only this way this can happen.

    Bet(Hargreaves)
    Well Bet my thoughts are towards what Sarah Blott mentioned rather than what you mentioned, and the following is from this address.
    http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/hea...tic_study.html

    Early estimates of the heritability of SM suggest it is around 0.7-0.8* or that 70-80% of the variation between individuals is genetic in origin and about 20-30% is environmental. In the case of SM not much is known about the environmental influences and these may include in-utero or developmental effects. The heritability is sufficiently high, however, that genetic selection against the disease should be very successful. Heritabilities for Chiari Malformation, Cerebellar Herniation and Medullary Kinking are also very high. Genetic correlations between these traits and SM are positive and, interestingly, less than one. This suggests that different genes may be controlling SM and CM and that it will be possible to select against SM even if dogs have the malformation (CM).
    .

  5. #15
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    Interesting posts, I love this breed and hope that it can survive and have a much healthier future. I'd be interested to hear what breeds people would consider to be most suitable for out/cross breeding with the Cavalier. Any suggestions?
    Marjorie

    "when a dog runs at you, whistle for him"
    Henry David Thoreau

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    Bet, I think maybe there's just some misinterpretation on both sides going on here, rather than a major difference of opinion.

    Mark, wouldn't most see a difference (at least in the context of this conversation) between outcrossing (bringing in another breed to broaden genetic diversity) and crossbreeding (making a single mating between breeds, producing crossbreed puppies)? At least, that has been how I would understand the difference in the context of the discussion -- noting that Amice Pitt talks about outcrossing and clearly means bringing in KCs or Papillons. Of course, every dog breed alive started from outcrossing -- starting with one breed and introducing one or more other breeds until they breed true -- including cavaliers. It is as you note a very complex issue with a lot of inbuilt prejudice too -- which Amice Pitt noted herself was experienced too by the breeders who tried to create a new CKCS breed from KC spaniels and some others mixed in. I think it is interesting that some breeders will selectively choose what they like about Amice Pitt's opinions on the breed -- but she very definitely was stating she thought outcrossing to papillons would help diversity and was quite alarmed by what she knew were real genetic bottlenecks in the CKCS breed history. On the other hand, my understanding is that Sarah Blott feels there is enough diversity to rescue the breed through selective breeding to reduce SM incidence -- and that this can be done for the reasons EddyAnne notes.

    Thus there is a positive outlook IF people are scanning, submitting scans for the EBV work, ready to share information and use EBVs, and help toward the completion of the genome work. Scanning older cavaliers at the moment is a critical part of understanding early and late onset and finding promising lines for the EBVs, too. So there is much that every breeder can do towards a positive outcome.

    I know many of the researchers feel that even with the narrow genetic confines of cavaliers, it is still far easier and faster to breed towards reduced incidence than to try and outcross to other breeds or start again to reconstruct the breed -- not least because over the decades so many breeds have run into genetic issues through the same constricted breeding practices. But looking to diversify the blood in the breed, as Amice Pitt puts it, remains a large picture, longer term issue. I just find it interesting that she already thought there was a serious issue half a century ago.

    Some of the researchers familiar with the 10,000 pedigree collection say that sadly many of the older lines that had good diversity and likely would have been better for SM are now gone and that it is very hard to find dogs that have not had all the common recent lines bred into them at some point, which makes the overall SM problem much more difficult to reduce and eliminate. I wish more Irish breeders would scan as some would have remained more isolated -- indeed I know some researchers feel it is the non-show breeders who may have some of the really good dogs because they would not ever have bred their dogs to the popular sires, etc.... it is an interesting argument. You wonder if, as at the start of the breed, it might be needed to make exceptions and bring in non-pedigreed dogs - to start scanning the dogs without pedigrees and search for those that are clear, see if there are even dogs without CM amongst them, and get them brought back into the breed as Mrs Pitt said happened with an early cavalier ancestor.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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    Yes Karlin,

    This is sure an interesting discussion.

    What would maybe help in the Cavaliers 'SM Problem ,if it could be found out if any Cavaliers who went back to the Cavalier... Cocker Spaniel Mating had the Malformed Bone.

    I know that there were some Pargeter, Maxholt ,McGoogans, Cavaliers who did.

    I did contact Dr Blott to make her aware about the In-Bred Early Back -Ground our Cavalier Breed has, I expect she knows about it ,but just maybe she did'nt .

    Who-ever would have thought ,that we would be discussing Mrs Pitt's words and thoughts to-day. Mark ,I guess were at cross purposes. I had got my heckles up. Sorry.

    Just a wee bit more Cavalier History.This is about Cavalier Dogs who had Sired the Cavalier Winners of Challenge Certificates

    Ch Daywell Roger ....73

    Ch Homaranne Caption ...67

    Ch Aloysius of Sunninghill ...67

    Ch Pargeter Mc Bounce ...30

    Ch Rosemullion of Ottermouth....38

    Minstrel Boy of Maxholt ....35

    Maybe It should be seriously thought about, go out -with Cavaliers that are winning in the Show Ring, and introduce Cavaliers who have different Pedigree back-Grounds.

    I know this is what Dr B. Cattanach ,Geneticist ,has mentioned , MRI Scan a number of ordinary Cavaliers, and see if they have SM.

    This could be so easily done.

    Bet(Hargreaves)
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    One of the things that is absolutely forbidden in dog breeding is crossbreeding to other breeds. Puppies are not purebred, and can't be registered, shown...

    This is less the case in the horse industry (thoroughbreds are a closed registration, but quarter horses are allowed if they are quarter horse/thoroughbred mixes; draft horses are routinely mixed to improve quality), and the cattle industry. Although there are exceptions in both industries, overall there has been an acceptance that preserving breeds may be at some point become detrimental to the breed, at which point crossbreeding becomes a better option.

    I don't know that cavaliers necessitate crossbreeding at this point, however, it should be something that persists as an idea, because crossbreeding can have huge benefits. Unfortunately, it is well known that the cavalier breed suffers from having originated from a small population. And that means that all cavaliers are descended from a highly inbred population.

    Perhaps a less extreme option than simply allowing crossbreeding would be to open a category for Register of Merit Cavaliers, so that interested parties could essentially recreate the breed from new lines, and only the successes would be added to the existing gene pool.

    Kooikers I've never heard suggested as a breed for crossing cavs to, however, as an "old type" spaniel I think they are a potentially interesting option.

  9. #19
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    Just noticed the above Post ,I don't know whether it's still allowed here in Britain or not by the UK Kennel Club, but at the time of the Cavalier mating between the Cocker Spaniel and the Cavalier,I think it was after Two generations, the Off-Springs were allowed to be called Cavaliers. It's maybe different now .Any-body know.?

    Bet( Hargreaves)
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sins View Post
    I would think an outcross would be an absolute last resort.
    I think it was you Bet who mentioned the Suntop cockers in the early 1950s. Is there any evidence to suggest that descendents of the Suntop breeding have a lower incidence of SM or MVD? I've never seen or heard it being discussed.
    However numerically,the cavalier is a "strong" breed and even though the genepool is relatively narrow there's every chance that enough truly healthy cavaliers exist to enable the breed to improve healthwise over the coming generations. I'd love to see CM free cavaliers being identified and hopefully some with excellent heart status being incorporated into the genepool even if they're not very good show specimens. . . . .
    Sins
    Karlin just made excellent points, that I don't want to take away from, but I have done some looking into the lines coming from Suntop Joyful (Cocker crossed in), and where they are. I find this stuff interesting, and wanted to share.

    Her daughter is Suntop Franconia, and can be found on the AENA pedigree database. The reverse pedigree is not really complete, though, and World Pedigrees, if one has signed up (for free) shows more lines coming from her including one that produced, 6 generations on, Startop Timothy.

    AENA doesn't show this, but the grand-dam of Startop Timothy, Suntop Chestnut, is daughter to Suntop Tuffet, who is the great, great grandson of Suntop Joyful.

    Many of the descendent of this girl are in Australia, but some made it back to European lines that I can see. Currently she is behind many dogs of the Gaycrest and Cavashon affixes, as well as a huge number of Cavaliers from Australia.

    Interestingly enough, Suntop Joyful, through Franconia, and a sixth generation descendant, Startop Timothy, is many times behind all eight great grandparents of Elvenhome Charmeuse. Elvenhome Charmeuse was the female Cavalier from Australia, scanned by Clare Rusbridge, who showed no signs of CM or SM.

    If you care to look at the pedigree of Elvenhome Charmeuse it is here: http://dhvg.ckcs-kcs.dyndns.org/cgi-...=5&db=CKCS.dbw

    You can find Suntop Joyful's daughter, Suntop Franconia, behind Aust Ch McGoogans Abighaoil through McGoogans Sheenagh and Startop Timothy.
    She is behind Aust Ch Prestonville Giv'm Beans through Aust Ch Elvenhome Tilt, and again back through Startop Timothy.

    Abighaoil and Giv'm Beans are behind Charmeuse's great grandparents Elvenhome Glen Buck, Elvenhome Betula Lutea and Elvenhome GaIlardia.
    Suntop Franconia is behind Braganzar Phrankincense through Braganzar Hunter and back again through Startop Timothy.
    Suntop Franconia is behind Braganzar Chapeau and NZ Ch Prestonville Countably through Braganzar Hermione (and Sadie), McGoogans Mayfly, and Startop Timothy.

    Just some interesting pedigree trivia.

    Oreo
    Last edited by Oreo; 28th January 2010 at 08:54 PM. Reason: sp

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