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Thread: In- Breeding and CKCS.

  1. #221
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    I do not think that the full consequences of the MVD protocol was ever spelt out.........

    1. If you have cavaliers that are clear of murmur at 2.5 years, they should not be used for breeding if their parents are not both at least 5 years old.

    2. If either parent develops a murmur before they are 5 years old, the offspring should not be used for breeding even if they are free of murmur themselves at 2.5 years old or over.


    The situation now can be that a nice puppy is whelped and used at stud at 1 year old. His heart is MVD clear.

    By the time he is 2.5 years old he has produced quite a lot of litters and is Granddad to a few promising puppies. His heart is MVD clear.

    At 4 years old he has sired a great many more litters, his children are producing well and so are his Grandchildren, so he is a multiple Great Granddad. A cardiology check shows he has developed a heart murmur.

    Most of those many descendants would not have existed if the MVD protocols had been followed. None of them, even the offspring produced after he was 2.5 years old, should be bred from under the MVD protocols.

    The protocols suggested by the Cardiologists had to be draconian if they were to make any difference, but they were accepted by the Cavalier Clubs without any real discussion with the breeders that were expected to implement them.

    The responsible breeders checked the hearts but most still used underage dogs and ignored the MVD status of the Grandparents.

    The majority ignored the whole idea of heart checks and did not bother about the breeding guidelines at all, except to indignantly point out that the breed had a MVD protocol to anybody that criticised irresponsible breeders.

    Nobody, Cardiologist, Kennel Club or Cavalier Club took stock of the true situation and asked whether something else should be done, a mistake that we need to learn from.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    I do not think that the full consequences of the MVD protocol was ever spelt out.........

    ...

    The protocols suggested by the Cardiologists had to be draconian if they were to make any difference, but they were accepted by the Cavalier Clubs without any real discussion with the breeders that were expected to implement them.

    Nobody, Cardiologist, Kennel Club or Cavalier Club took stock of the true situation and asked whether something else should be done, a mistake that we need to learn from.
    I did not find any of this to be the case when the MVD breeding protocol was introduced in the USA. The announcement was made by a panel of four cardiologists (from the UK, Scotland, and USA) and a geneticist (from Sweden) at a meeting of a large group of Cavalier breeders at the May 1998 national show of the CKCSC,USA in Atlanta, Georgia. The meeting in the crowded hotel auditorium was lengthy. After each veterinarian made his or her separate presentation, there was a question-and-answer session, The entire meeting was tape recorded, and a verbatim transcript was prepared and sent to every member of the club. That transcript is still available for anyone to read. An abridged version of the transcript is on a webpage of the CKCSC, USA's website --
    http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/formsdocs...8heartsymp.PDF

    The transcript establishes the rationale for the protocol, due the polygenic nature of MVD. The geneticist, Lennart Swenson, was a breeder himself, who had personal knowlege of the success of similar protocols for polygenic disorders, including one which reduced hip dysplasia in Rottweilers in Sweden from 36% to 11%. The questions asked at the end of the meeting were very probing and skeptical. The researchers' answers were direct and candid. Read the transcript.

    In the end, the board of the CKCSC,USA endorsed the protocol as a recommendation to its breeders. Granted, there was no negotiation with the researchers as to what was necessary to eliminate early-onset MVD, but there certainly was extensive discussion about it, and give-and-take with the specialists who designed the protocol. The reason given by the geneticist was that doing anything less would not work. The following 12 years of most breeders doing less has proven him to have been spot on correct.

    So, I disagree that "Nobody ... took stock of the true situation and asked whether something else should be done." At least, that was not the case in the USA. That very question was asked at the 1998 meeting. The end result was that the CKCSC,USA's board endorsed the protocol as written, and the ACKCSC has ignored it, treating it as if it never happened. You could argue from the ACKCSC's denial that somebody did ask whether something else should be done. The ACKCSC's answer to that question has been to do nothing at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    ...The responsible breeders checked the hearts but most still used underage dogs and ignored the MVD status of the Grandparents.

    The majority ignored the whole idea of heart checks and did not bother about the breeding guidelines at all, except to indignantly point out that the breed had a MVD protocol to anybody that criticised irresponsible breeders. ...
    I disagree with this characterization, too. Once the MVD breeding protocol was introduced to the USA breeders in May 1998, the definition of a "responsible breeder" changed. No longer was it "responsible" to breed under-aged Cavaliers and to ignore the grandparents.
    Rod Russell

  3. #223
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    Hello Rod,

    I was talking about the UK breeders. I do not know the situation in the USA and so never meant for my comments to apply to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by RodRussell View Post
    So, I disagree that "Nobody ... took stock of the true situation and asked whether something else should be done." At least, that was not the case in the USA. That very question was asked at the 1998 meeting. .
    I was referring to the fact that nobody in the UK assessed the effectiveness of the protocol after it had been in place a certain number of years, & admitted it was failing due to non-compliance by breeders.

    18 years with most of the top breeders not even having annual heart checks from their vet. To be fair, there was an attempt to limit the stud dog list in the back of the year book to those that submitted certificates. At that, many of the most important breeders boycotted the list and it was eventually discontinued.


    Quote Originally Posted by RodRussell View Post
    I disagree with this characterization, too. Once the MVD breeding protocol was introduced to the USA breeders in May 1998, the definition of a "responsible breeder" changed. No longer was it "responsible" to breed under-aged Cavaliers and to ignore the grandparents.
    I agree that the definition of 'responsible' should have changed in the UK, but within the breed it didn't. These were the breeders that thought they were being responsible because at least they checked hearts and eyes before mating their dogs.
    I was one of them, I took the advice of older experienced breeders, followed their example, and bought into all the excuses that a dog needed to learn stud work at an early age.

    I thought I was responsible when I would not accept a bitch to my stud dog unless she had an eye and heart certificate that I saw before the mating took place ( and there were a few breeders that changed their mind about using my dog because of this ) but I did accept bitches that were less than 2.5 years and used my dogs from a very young age.

    The Breed Clubs are run by volunteers with no experience in veterinary matters and an inbuilt reluctance to believe that there was really any problem in the breed. It was thought almost disloyal to talk about health, and it was frequently said that vets and researchers were only suggesting health tests because it was good for business.

    The UK Kennel Club knew there were really grave health issues in pedigree dogs for many years. It was headed by old time breeders and so next to nothing was done to address the problem.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    ... I was talking about the UK breeders. I do not know the situation in the USA and so never meant for my comments to apply to them.
    I think a similar symposium was held in the UK about four or so months before the May 1998 symposium in the USA. I have a copy of a transcript of a UK symposium at my office, which I will check when I return there later this weekend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    ... I was referring to the fact that nobody in the UK assessed the effectiveness of the protocol after it had been in place a certain number of years, & admitted it was failing due to non-compliance by breeders.
    There may not have been any formal, published analysis of the effectiveness of the protocol since its implementation, but I know of at least three reports since 1998.

    The first was in 2000, by Dr. James Wood of the Animal Health Trust. His team studied 4,255 Cavalier heart exam records and concluded:

    MVD is the major killer of Cavaliers under 10 years of age.

    Veterinary cardiologists were better able to identify early mitral valve murmurs than were non-specialist veterinarians.

    The parent's heart status can predict the offspring's future heart status.

    The offspring were ten to twenty times more likely to be free of MVD murmurs if the sire's heart was clear of murmurs at ages nine to eleven years.

    Then, in an oft-repeated 2009 report by Simon Swift to the UK Cavalier Club, he stated that 50% of Cavaliers still are developing MVD murmurs by their fifth birthday.

    And, of course, there is Ms. Jupp's statement of a year ago: "There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals."

    If she was correct, then when you combine her observation with that of Mr. Swift, given at about the same time, the reason that 50% still are developing murmurs by their fifth birthday may well be because of a lack of health testing and compliance with the protocol.

    Finally, there are UK breeders who profess to following the protocol and who insist, also, that the Cavaliers they produce are not developing early-onset murmurs.
    Rod Russell

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    Default In-Breeding and CKCS

    [QUOTE=RodRussell;359854]I think a similar symposium was held in the UK about four or so months before the May 1998 symposium in the USA. I have a copy of a transcript of a UK symposium at my office, which I will check when I return there later this weekend.



    There may not have been any formal, published analysis of the effectiveness of the protocol since its implementation, but I know of at least three reports since 1998.

    The first was in 2000, by Dr. James Wood of the Animal Health Trust. His team studied 4,255 Cavalier heart exam records and concluded:

    MVD is the major killer of Cavaliers under 10 years of age.


    In-Breeding and CKCS


    I hope those of you with Cavaliers suffering from SM will realize how the Cavalier MVD Problem is linked in with the Cavalier SM Problem, in that ,in 1983 Cavalier Breeders were warned by Dr P.Darke, the UK CKCS Club Cardiologist about how serious the MVD Problem was in the Breed.

    To-day it is Dr C. Rusbridge ,Neurologist , who is warning the Cavalier Breeders about the seriousness of the SM Problem in Cavaliers.

    If I could mention a Talk that was given at the UK CKCS CLUB'S AGM ,please note the DATE ,1991,that is almost 20 years ago.

    This was given by Dr .B.M.CATTANACH,BSc. PhD. DSc. FRS, who is a Geneticist.

    I am quoting from his Lecture.

    He mentions that it is clear from the HEART SURVEY RESULTS published in the VETERINARY RECORD by DR P.DARKE ,Cardiologist,that CAVALIERS are particularly prone to the MVD Disease ,and noteably ,develope the Symptoms early in Life,rather than in Old Age ,as in other Breeds

    Please note I am still quoting from the Lecture , the HEART MURMURS which Identify MVD have been found in Cavaliers of less than One Year Old ,and about 40% of Adult Cavaliers between 2-5 years HAVE MURMURS ( This has now risen to 50% of Cavaliers will have Murmurs at 5 years of age, as was mentioned at last years UK CKCS CLUB'S AGM)

    Back to the 1991 AGM Lecture.

    It may be concluded from these findings that this Early Onset of MVD is a Major Problem of Cavaliers and is Widely Spread throughtout the Breed

    When such a Specific Condidition is found within a Breed,occuring in Different Areas ,in Different Kennels ,and Pet Home Situations with different Rearing ,Housing ,Feeding and Exercise Regimes it may be reasonably inferred that the Condition has some form of Heriditary Basis.

    Cavalier MVD therefore almost certainly has a GENETIC COMPONENT

    Some Cavaliers suffering from the Disease probably played a Significant Role in the History of the Breed

    The Consequence has been that the Condition became widely Spread and Prevalent.

    Dr B .Cattanach also said , ( this should be of Great Interest for the Proposal at the Forth Coming CKCS'CLUBS AGM,)

    To Improve the Heart Situation in Cavalier SHOW STOCK ,it is inportant to ensure that the Animals which have the Greatest Influence on the Breed have the Best Hearts .

    It is of of ABOSLUTELY PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE that the TOP SHOW CAVALIERS ,The TOP CAVALIER STUD DOGS , and the TOP CAVALIER BROOD BITCHES ARE HEART TESTED

    Finally my own Comments. surely Cavalier Breeders must see that this also will apply to the CKCS SM Problem.

    Dr B.Cattanach's Comments were made around 20 years ago about the MVD Problem in the Cavalier Breed, don't let it be being said that in another 20 years time, the warnings now being given about the CKCS SM Problem were being ignored ,and the SM Problem is Rife in Cavaliers,this has to be accepted by a number of Cavalier Breeders, that the Cavaliers have Two Serious Health Conditions ,SM and MVD, and all the Spinning in the World WILL NOT ALTER THIS FACT!!!!

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  6. #226
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    Default IN-BREEDING and CKCS

    Finally my own Comments. surely Cavalier Breeders must see that this also will apply to the CKCS SM Problem.

    Dr B.Cattanach's Comments were made around 20 years ago about the MVD Problem in the Cavalier Breed, don't let it be being said that in another 20 years time, the warnings now being given about the CKCS SM Problem were being ignored ,and the SM Problem is Rife in Cavaliers,this has to be accepted by a number of Cavalier Breeders, that the Cavaliers have Two Serious Health Conditions ,SM and MVD, and all the Spinning in the World WILL NOT ALTER THIS FACT!!!!

    Bet[/QUOTE]


    IN-BREEDING and CKCS


    I just had to Post this which has just appeared on an SM SITE.

    Dr J Sampson ,who is the KC Geneticist , said at yesterday's SM Seminar.that LINE BREEDING is IN-BREEDING.

    This is such a Co-incidence ,in a News-Paper to-day in an Article about Charles Darwin ,who is the Father of Evolution ,who Revolutionised our Understanding of GENETICS ,he had said that Cousin to Cousin Marriages was In-Breeding.

    I hope that some-body who was at the Seminar can comment on what was said at it.

    I don't want to say any-more at the moment , but to hear what Professor Sir P Bateson and Dr J Sampson and last but not least Charles Darwin on the subject of In-Breeding ,surely no-body can be in any doubt any longer that IN-Breeding could be having a part to play in the SM Problem and MVD problem in our Cavalier Breed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    ... Dr J Sampson ,who is the KC Geneticist , said at yesterday's SM Seminar.that LINE BREEDING is IN-BREEDING.
    Line-breeding obviously is a form of in-breeding. Hopefully, he also said something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    ... This is such a Co-incidence ,in a News-Paper to-day in an Article about Charles Darwin ,who is the Father of Evolution ,who Revolutionised our Understanding of GENETICS ,he had said that Cousin to Cousin Marriages was In-Breeding.
    We don't need to quote Darwin to establish that fact. Cousin-to-cousin breeding is a form of in-breeding. Darwin said a lot of things that have been proven to be completely wrong, but he was correct about the in-breeding comment. But, what is and what is not in-breeding has never been a mystery.

    Remember, but for in-breeding, there never would have been a Cavalier King Charles spaniel breed in the 1920s. There are good things about in-breeding, and there are bad things about it. To demonize it in its entirety is a bad thing, too.
    Rod Russell

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    Default IN-BREEDING and CKCS

    Quote Originally Posted by RodRussell View Post
    Line-breeding obviously is a form of in-breeding. Hopefully, he also said something else.



    We don't need to quote Darwin to establish that fact. Cousin-to-cousin breeding is a form of in-breeding. Darwin said a lot of things that have been proven to be completely wrong, but he was correct about the in-breeding comment. But, what is and what is not in-breeding has never been a mystery.

    Remember, but for in-breeding, there never would have been a Cavalier King Charles spaniel breed in the 1920s. There are good things about in-breeding, and there are bad things about it. To demonize it in its entirety is a bad thing, too.

    IN-BREEDING and CKCS

    What I have found out about this IN-BREEDING Subject, is that it seems to be that it was used mainly for the purpose of setting the Type for the Show Scene.

    At first ,IN-BREEDING proved beneficial.

    Breeders learned that by Mating Related Individuals of the Desired Type,the Resulting Quality and Uniformity of the Off-Spring improved.

    In recent years years ,Pure-Bred Dogs have experienced increasing problems with Hereditary Diseases and Defects ,also Genetic Bottle-Necks, Closed Gene Pools ,Gene Pool Fragmentation, and Genetic Drift ,but all are Attributable to In-Breeding.

    It is becoming more and more apparent that the Short -Term Gains of In-Breeding are Out-Weighed by it's Long Term Costs

    If Two Dogs share no Ancestors for 4 Generations ,but share many in the 5th ,6th,and so on this would be In-Breeding.

    We now know that that Professor Sir.P. Bateson has said that Grand-Mother to Grand-Son and Grand-Father - to Grand-Daughter is In-Breeding.

    This has been the Norm for our Cavalier Breed for years and years.

    IN-BREEDING gave us the Cavalier Breed , but it's time is Past .

    If Cavaliers are to have a Future , then there has to be more Emphasis on Over-All Health and Concerted Efforts to Reduce the Level of In-Breeding in our Cavalier Breed.

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    Default In-breeding and ckcs

    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    IN-BREEDING and CKCS

    What I have found out about this IN-BREEDING Subject, is that it seems to be that it was used mainly for the purpose of setting the Type for the Show Scene.

    At first ,IN-BREEDING proved beneficial.

    Breeders learned that by Mating Related Individuals of the Desired Type,the Resulting Quality and Uniformity of the Off-Spring improved.

    In recent years years ,Pure-Bred Dogs have experienced increasing problems with Hereditary Diseases and Defects ,also Genetic Bottle-Necks, Closed Gene Pools ,Gene Pool Fragmentation, and Genetic Drift ,but all are Attributable to In-Breeding.

    It is becoming more and more apparent that the Short -Term Gains of In-Breeding are Out-Weighed by it's Long Term Costs

    If Two Dogs share no Ancestors for 4 Generations ,but share many in the 5th ,6th,and so on this would be In-Breeding.

    We now know that that Professor Sir.P. Bateson has said that Grand-Mother to Grand-Son and Grand-Father - to Grand-Daughter is In-Breeding.

    This has been the Norm for our Cavalier Breed for years and years.

    IN-BREEDING gave us the Cavalier Breed , but it's time is Past .

    If Cavaliers are to have a Future , then there has to be more Emphasis on Over-All Health and Concerted Efforts to Reduce the Level of In-Breeding in our Cavalier Breed.

    Bet

    IN-BREEDING AND CKCS

    I have just read this Interesting Article about Human Cousins Marrying Cousins .

    Over 70 Scientific Studies have Proved that their Off-Springs are 10 Times more likely to be born with Recessive Disorders.

    That if this did not happen , this could prevent Avoidable Suffering.

    Some Doctors are now doing Carrier Testing ,to prevent the Children of such Marriages,to try and stop Children being born with Terrible ,Disabilities that are Devasting their Lives.

    I just wonder in our Cavalier Breed how many Cousin to Cousin Matings have taken Place over the Generations, and is this Type of Mating still taking Place in To-Days 'Cavaliers.

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