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Thread: In- Breeding and CKCS.

  1. #21
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    Although it is in many breeds and clubs, crossbreeding is not absolutely forbidden in ALL dog breeding and breed clubs. These clubs still do call their dogs purebreds, so that definition is not set in stone as being pureblood by ancestry.

    The Jack Russel Terrier Club of America allows in first generation crosses, as long as they have passed evaluation, as do some of the American Border Collie clubs and registries. I'm sure there are others.

    I'm in no way suggesting, at this time, the crossbreeding of Cavaliers, not when so much has been put into the EBVs, but wanted to point this out.

    Oreo

  2. #22
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    Noting that Sarah Blott feels the Cavalier breed can be rescued through selective breeding (for health). My question is can both MVD and SM be eliminated following this protocol? or is it more a case of the best the breed can hope for is a reduction in MVD and SM?
    Mum to Tallulah (blenheim)
    Three Precious Cavalier Angels in Heaven, until we meet again girls...xxx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oreo View Post
    Although it is in many breeds and clubs, crossbreeding is not absolutely forbidden in ALL dog breeding and breed clubs. These clubs still do call their dogs purebreds, so that definition is not set in stone as being pureblood by ancestry.

    The Jack Russel Terrier Club of America allows in first generation crosses, as long as they have passed evaluation, as do some of the American Border Collie clubs and registries. I'm sure there are others.
    Oreo,

    You're absolutely right. The American Border Collie Association's open studboook was a main reason why they refused to join the AKC as the parent club of the breed. I was referring to large KC's UKC, AKC, and others where purebred dogs can only come from 2 registered parents.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clairelou View Post
    Noting that Sarah Blott feels the Cavalier breed can be rescued through selective breeding (for health). My question is can both MVD and SM be eliminated following this protocol? or is it more a case of the best the breed can hope for is a reduction in MVD and SM?
    The way these protocols are set up is by selecting the dogs to breed for the future generation from the current generation (I realize that is a no-brainer), if you can imagine the current population as being represented by a bell curve (animals at one end are of lowest breeding quality, animals in the middle are mediocre, and animals at the other end are of highest breeding quality). By choosing dogs who are of the best quality currently available and breeding those we can shift the entire curve so that the animals who were of highest quality before are now of mediocre quality.

    This is the exact same principle used for breeding for looks, but applied to health. MVD and SM will not be eliminated quickly (if ever), but prevalence of the diseases can be reduced. If half as many dogs were affected would it be worth doing? Yes (in my opinion). And what's more, those dogs who are half as likely to be diagnosed can be used to further reduce these diseases.

    What's important to avoid is a situation where you are so restrictive about which dogs are bred that the population hits a bottle-neck and the potential for new genetic diseases to crop up is high.

  5. #25
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    One thing to note is along with Health Test Results that also Cheek Swabs are being sent in and stored. Later when DNA Researchers find the genes and develop a cost effective DNA test, it is then that all the stored DNA Cheek Swabs will be tested and the results entered into the Program as Genomic Breeding Values (geBVs). It is only then that the heritable diseases can be eliminated from the breed and by still ulilising the Program will take into account the gene pool and help avoid potential problems.
    .

  6. #26
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    Oreo,I just can't thankyou enough for this information.I got the Files from Margaret Barnes who did the Cavalier, Cocker Spaniel Mating, a few years ago, along with photos etc.

    I know I can't say ,I rest my case, but for ages I always wished if only a Cavalier with the Cocker Spaniel and Cavalier Mating could be MRI Scanned ,to see if there was a Problem

    Now there is one with ,with no CM and SM.

    I know this is early ,early days, but it is sure food for thought.

    Thanks again

    Bet(Hargreaves)
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  7. #27
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    As far as the UK KC allowing outcrosses is concerned, there was some interesting history of the Affenpinscher in last week's Our Dogs breed notes. A group of people in this country started trying to establish the breed in the UK in the 1970s. In 1975 a champion bitch was imported from the US; it was hoped she was in whelp when she arrived, but she wasn't. Because there was no male Affenpinscher in the UK, the KC gave permission for her to be mated to a Miniature Pinscher, and she produced one bitch puppy. I think the rule is that if an outcross is made, the offspring of the resulting puppies are considered purebred within 3 generations as long as they are mated back to the original breed and conform to the breed standard. There is a lot of discussion in the breed notes and articles at the moment about outcrossing other breeds to avoid health issues - dalmations are one.

    The real problem with outcrossing, of course, is the risk of introducing new diseases into the Cavalier gene pool, or while trying to avoid SM, doubling up on other existing diseases. Cockers, for instance, overlap with Cavaliers on patellas, progressive retinal atrophy and (yes!) heart disease. Papillons, another possibility as they too are descended from medieval spaniels (very obvious in the drop-eared phalenes), share patella and eye problems.

    The frying pan and the fire come to mind!

    Kate, Oliver and Aled

  8. #28
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    Good for you Bet on getting the files from Margaret Barnes.
    I've no doubt you thoroughly enjoyed seeing the photos etc...
    As for the bitch who had the excellent scan,while it is fantastic,be mindful of the old saying
    "One swallow doesn't make a summer"...
    Sins

  9. #29
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    The frying pan and the fire come to mind!
    Yes, indeed!
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  10. #30
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    Some people have mentioned the "Kooikerhondje" as a possible out-cross. Although they have the "look" of a Cavalier they have the exact opposite temperment of a Cavalier. These dogs were used to create the Nova Scotia Duck Toller and unfortunately the Kookier temperment was passed along. It would be a shame to sacrifice the beautiful Cavalier temperment.
    Marjorie

    "when a dog runs at you, whistle for him"
    Henry David Thoreau

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