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In- Breeding and CKCS.

I have a few wonderful photos of some of the early Cavaliers, and including one of Suntop Joyful (Cocker),

Thank you very much, Bet, for entrusting them to me.

I'll scan them and send to Karlin.

Carol
 
My Pleasure Carol, I'm having a Great Afternoon ,a long time since I 've done this ,there 's a Cavalier in the Australian Cavalier's Pedigree, Australian Ch McGoogans Abighaoil this is
a British Cavalier, that I am tracing back through the Kennel Club Breed Supplements, to the Cocker Spaniel Cavalier Mating, when I've got it finished,I'll put it on the List .

Bet( Hargreaves)
 
Suntop Joyful and offspring.jpg

Here's the dog Bet is referring to -- cocker on the left. You can enlarge the image by clicking on it.
 
I have had a lovely couple of days looking at the Kennel Club Breed Supplements.

This was because of Oreo's Post about the Australian Cavalier having been MRI Scanned and was found to have no CM/SM ,and the Pedigree going back to the Cocker Spaniel /Cavalier mating.

In Elvenhome Charmeuse ' s Pedigree is a British Cavalier on both sides of her Pedigree

Australian Ch Mc Googans Abighaoil .

Her Dam

McGoogans Sheenagh, is linked to Startop Timothy,who is closely linked to

Suntop Chestnut

Whose sire was Suntop Tuffet ,and Suntop Tuffet's Dam was

The Crossbred Cavalier

Suntop Pegotty, who was the result of the Cocker Spaniel ,Black and White, and the B/T Cavalier,Crest by Candlelight Mating.

I hope the others on the List have been able to follow this.

Finally could I mention that Freckles of Ttiweh ,is also in the Kennel Club Breed Supplements ,as having had 7 Litters from her Son, Plantation Banjo.

Bruce Field has also mentioned this ,in his Book

Bet (Hargreaves)

The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
 
I sure am needing a Coffee !!!!

it's been a long two days, going over the Cocker Spaniel/ Cavalier Mating, ,Should have done this before I posted it, !!!!

It was a Cavalier called Plantation Banjo Freckles of Ttiweh had 7 litters to .

Plantation Banjo was not her Son.Sorry for the Slip Up,I was thinking about Cannonhill Richey and Plantation Banjo being Father and Son,who Mrs Pitt had mentioned ,that Cavalier Breeders at that time , had given no thought for the Future of the Cavalier Breed,using them so often.

At least with this Thread I think Cavalier Breeders are at long last realizing the In-Bred Early Pedigrees of our Cavaliers.

Are Cavaliers now paying the Price because of their Health Problems.? Maybe the Researchers will be able to answer this question.


Bet (Hargreaves)
 
Freckles of TTIWEH

Bet,

If Banjo was NOT Her Son, what relation was he please ?

What did this man FIELD write in his book please ?

Can you do a list of ALL the matings please, as some over on CC are keen to learn the facts.

Mark Marshall.
 
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Mark, surely they are not waiting on Cavalier Chat for this all to be revealed? Cannot YorkySue answer this quetion for everybody, as she told us all here that ALL the breeders know ALL the details of the early history of the breed and it is only people like me who might find it "all new"... ? :roll:

The Field book is the out of print classic The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel by Bruce Field.
 
For those who do not know this or do not have YorkySue to inform them :):

Field, page 20:

After the war "there were some extreme examples of repeat matings and some close 'in-breeding'. For instance between Aug 1939 and Dec 1943 Mme J Harper Trois-Fontaines' blenheim bitch Freckles of Ttiweh had seven litters, totalling 39 puppies, by the same dog, namely Plantation Banjo, her own black and tan. Banjo also sired two litters, totalling 13 puppies, by his own daughter, Princesse Celia de Fontenay, in March and October 1943. Another of his daughters, Princesse Bianca de Fontenay, had one puppy by him in Jan 1943. A full brother and sister mating, namely Prince Carol de Fontenay and Princesse Bianca de Fontenay, produced three puppies in May 1944.

It has to be clearly pointed out that close inbreeding such as this should only be practised by breeders with considerable experience and who know their stock's genetic makeup very thoroughly. Whilst there can be advantages, the dangers are considerable. One can understand in those early days in the breed the need to try and 'fix' particular features by in-breeding. Less understandable is the frequent mating of poor Freckles...
Click to expand...

Of course no one understood the severe genetic problems that seem to have been waiting and biding their time... but those decisions taken back then almost surely set the stage for the problems we have now.
 
Moreover he then quotes Amice Pitt who said of this inbreeding that it created serious problems for her when she started to look around for a sire after WWII:

I saw and heard of many but so many had been so inbred on both sides to both Plantation Banjo and Cannonhill Richey that they were of little use to me. Both these sires were influential in the breed but were used to every bitch, ad this before the Kennel Club divided the King Charles Spaniel from the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, so that any amount of good blood that could have been used was neglected leaving us with a very inbred line.
Click to expand...

He also has the picture posted previously and one of Suntop Spilliken and notes Amice Pitt's hope in 1962 that the KC would lift its rule and allow "new blood' from another breed into the cavalier lineage.
 
Thank you so much for your last posts after mine to Bet.

I am now, very keen to go back onto CC to read their views on this, Mr field ?

I am of course, trying to post replies to their knee-jerk questions and abuse but so far only one has got through Sandra.

Thank you again Karlin.

Mark Marshall.
 
I just went downstairs to check the CKCS Champions 1928-1999 published by the CKCS Club in the UK. By my count every single champion for the 1940s and then going into the 1950s has either Cannonhill Richey or Plantation Banjo as parent, grandparent or great-grandparent and usually appearing more than once. Presumably all these champions were then being bred quite a bit as they were the top dogs of those years... bringing us to champions by 1950 like Armourer of Ttiweh, where three of his four great grandfathers are... Cannonhill Richey. :eek: Or Champion Pargeter Thundercloud of Ttiweh, whose grandfather on one side is Cannonhill Richey and GGF is of course Plantation Banjo and on the other side, the GGFs are... father and son, Plantation Banjo and Cannonhill Richey. :eek:
 
In-Breeding and CKCS

Here are the Matings Freckles of Ttiweh had with Plantation Banjo.

She was born

29-9-1937.

1 November 1939 ......4 Puppies

13 July 1940 ......6 Puppies

23 March 1941 ......7 Puppies

19 November 1941 ......7 Puppies

23 July 1942.........6 Puppies

12 December 1942.......2 Puppies.

22 March 1943 ........7 Puppies. This is a bit Fishy

Poor Wee Soul !!!!! She Sure helped with the War Effort!!!

That was 39 Cavalier Puppies she had.

There were some matings carried out on her Consecutive Seasons.

Look at the Number of Puppies she had , I sure have a Word for the Treatment she got.

Now we are being told this to save the Cavalier Breed .

These Figures have come from the Kennel Club's Breed Supplements.

Bet(Hargreaves)
 
Freckles of TTIWEH

Seems that the first 5 litters were all back to back at 8 month cycles.

Why was I so horrified that a bitch in recent times was mated back to back on 3 occasions - all via a CS !

Seems that the KC still condone such behaviour.

Freckles had another litter dated 23/8/44 - please see CC thread.

They suggest that the Father of 1/11/39 was Flash Grenedier ?

Mark Marshall.
 
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Mark it is interesting, as I just read a list of dogs on the other site with a "puzzle" type challenge about what they have in common - noting it (the why) has to do with their appearance "(Why they have been doing it is only apparent if you know the dogs by sight)."

Well, nothing to do with appearance, because I have no inclination towards noting those things past some basic recognition, but the first thing I noticed is that the vast majority of the dogs listed were from half sibling pairings. Pageant of Homerbrent, b. in 1987, in fact, shares three great grandsires (and as well both great grandmothers are doubled up on), just as Armourer of Ttiweh did in the 50s.

I also laughed out loud when I read this assumption worded in the form of a question.

"a. Would you agree that phenotype was principally responsible for your attraction to the breed?"

Although it was aimed at Mark, I thought, excuse me, but that is assuming a lot, considering the long ears and shorter boxy muzzle of the Cavalier had it struck off my list as a breed to own for years. I'm sure others have been won over by temperament in this breed.

I do live where there are very few purebred dogs . . . about 1 in 10.

So I'm going to ask, is this "choosing by phenotype" more a thing that goes on where purebreds abound?

I would think that what pet owners appreciate most in a pet is temperament and good health, far, far above exact predictability of phenotype. I would think that GREAT appreciation would be given to breeders who strove for preserving health in a full breed, which takes looking far forward, and also great health in their own breedings, far and above all other considerations.

Oreo
 
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Just had a look a while ago.Fascinating puzzle but not sure what the answer is...
Judyland Beautiful had two different Lymrey grandsires, reflection and scandal which bucks the trend of the half sibling pairings..
Good challenge though,although probably best conducted between the two lads while holding up a bar after downing about 12 pints.
Sins
 
The half sibling pairings are just notable. As those of us on this side of the Atlantic can't know dogs by sight, the 'why' of the puzzle can't be done.

Of the 15 dogs listed, 13 are from half sibling pairings. The other two - Judyland Beautiful and Peakdowns Fantism - paired up grandfathers that were full siblings to each other.

Oreo
 
The Challenge....

Sins,

You are so right.

I shall invite Gorgon down to Devon for a wee quart of Devon cider !

Being from up North he will think it's tame but many a Geordie found out otherwise. (CID Course, Leeds 1986 !)

Mark Marshall.
 
CC FORUM - Mrs PIT and others......

Post number #91 by Dennis shows a wonderful picture of the Defontenay Dogs.

Number two from left is Banjo the Father of so many puppies and who sired so many litters of Freckles !

She is the last on the right, keeping away from Banjo. She has possibly had enough of him.

Sadly out of the five, she does look knackered - but perhaps we know why ?

Who can see which breeds from the shape of the heads ?

Mark Marshall.
 
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Devon Cider? Dear God NO!
Many years ago a poor little girl only used to Tipperary spring water discovered Devon Cider in 1987 while learning all about veterinary diagnostics.
Still not recovered fully and probably never will.
Sinsicon_blshing
 
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