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In- Breeding and CKCS.

Phenotypes ?

QUOTE FROM CC " Would you agree that phenotype was principally responsible for your attraction to the breed?"

QUOTE OREO "So I'm going to ask, is this "choosing by phenotype" more a thing that goes on where purebreds abound?

I would think that what pet owners appreciate most in a pet is temperament and good health, far, far above exact predictability of phenotype. I would think that GREAT appreciation would be given to breeders who strove for preserving health in a full breed, which takes looking far forward, and also great health in their own breedings, far and above all other considerations.

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A very good question and one I can answer with ease.

I first met Cavaliers via my kennels when three girls came in from a family. They were the most unfit dogs and could hardly walk being so overweight.

However I loved their big round eyes and willingness to please with wagging tails. Therefore I got them onto grass each day and enjoyed their company.

Months later I was told of two who were not wanted and following a phone call went and bought them unseen. They were both Tri girls and are with us now. One is the Grandmother of my present pups and still going strong.

In between, we started to show for fun - just to see if we liked it ?

Quickly you see many other Cavaliers that win and have to conceed that whats on your lead needs to improve. There is no real point in paying a lot of money to enter shows, knowing the probable outcome.

This is when one changes. You suddenly start viewing Cavalers with a critical eye and look for what Judges tend to go for. Now I cannot look at a Cavalier without silently going through the breed standard and putting ticks or crosses in boxes.

In the past I would go for the runt or the one with a funny face or strange markings - and love was never an issue. Because I didnt look at any dog to find fault.

This in my mind is the negative side of Showing but par for the course may be ?

When Breeding pups, the resultant style is parmount for showing but overall second to health issues. I would rather have 4 healthy pups and no show puppy than 1 show pup and 3 puppies with issues.

Mark Marshall.
 
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She is the last on the right, keeping away from Banjo. She has possibly had enough of him.
Click to expand...

:rotfl:

I'd say so.

On phenotype: I would say 99% of puppy buyers actually would not know a show quality dog or typey dog if they saw one. Some might recognise a dog WAY off breed standard, eg with a long nose, but other than that it takes a long time to learn what is considered good or bad about any given cavalier in terms of appearance, movement etc.

I have seen many, many people get a cavalier and believe it is show quality (duped by some BYB or broker) or worth breeding because it is 'so beautiful' and must therefore be show quality -- when the dogs are absolute backyard breeder/puppy farm type dogs. But I understand the sentiments of the owners because that one dog is absolutely beautiful in the owner's eyes and they are right. Probably 75% of my rescue dogs are not great breed examples but I can tell you they are cherished more than some of the dogs I've seen or been told about outside in show breeder kennels.

I am sure there can be far greater convergence of type and health. But type should match some health standards as well, and type varies over time, as old pictures of any breed shows -- what is desireable can change a lot from generation to generation.

When I got Jaspar he was the most perfect cavalier specimen on the planet, and remains so for me. :lotsaluv: I can still remember the shock I felt when his breeder told me, when I went to collect Leo, that Jaspar hadn't had a great head as a puppy and still didn't but it was a bit better now... :eek: Whereas Leo was considered the much better dog, and a daughter was considering showing him. That got me interested in just what constituted a show quality dog, and sure reminded me that though everyone will tell you what a beautiful dog you have, this is not the same as having a beautiful show quality dog.

The personality is indeed what sells you and in several years of doing rescue now, I can say that no matter what the cavalier looks like, the personality is very consistent, and special.

When my parents had Lucy they left her in to the kennels once when they were away for a week, and when they went to collect her she was lying in a dog bed behind the (gated) counter with the kennel owner. Turns out he took her home each night too. They have a way of winning people over... but then I don;t have to explain that to anyone here. :)
 
In-Breeding and CKCS

If it's OK with you Folks, could I mention Freckles of Ttiweh again.

When I first found out about Her when looking at the Breed Supplements ,I have some-times wondered did her wee Body give out after all those Consecutive Seasons from being Mated .

I have never found out any-other Mention of Her.

We are often told about how there is much to thank the Cavalier Breeders in the War Years for keeping the Cavalier Breed going.

I'm going to be finding out about this , how many Cavalier Bitches were really around at that time, was Poor Wee Freckles just being made use of.

Bet(Hargreaves)
 
Poor 'wee' Freckles of TTIWEH

Bet,

during the much research and comments about this girl, it was said on CC that during this time period, many many puppies failed to make it for health reasons or were discarded for phenotype or other reasons.

Also, it seems that they wanted more and more puppies to be registered so that the popularity of Cavaliers, could be evidenced I suppose.

As there seems to be little or no evidence of her (39 or so) progeny could it possibly be that FALSE litters were created and recorded with the KC to facilitate the establishing of the Breed ?

Just a thought for you to ponder with ?

Thank you,

Mark.
 
Phenotype

I sometimes think Cavalier breeders are trying to do the impossible producing a Toy Spaniel - it really is a contradiction in terms, and in practice Cavaliers tend to fall into one category or the other, according to fashion. The early dogs were definitely spaniels! Modern show dogs tend to be toys - smaller in size but also lighter in bone, silkier in coat, lacking in muscle. My Oliver did moderately well at show in his youth, but is a very unfashionable type - solid bone (and teeth and nails - his mum obviously produced plenty of calcium!), good muscle, a chunky dog - just within the acceptable height range for show, but well over 18lb because of all that bone and muscle.

Perhaps the best thing healthwise for Cavaliers would be to reclassify them as Spaniels and remove them from the Toy group - they could remain the smallest breed of spaniel (instead of the largest Toy breed) but the psychological change of attitude towards them could be enormous - potential working dogs rather than ethereal couch potatos! And I do have a friend who has trained one of her Cavaliers to be a very efficient gundog.

Kate, Oliver (who would love to be a gundog!) and Aled (who would not like guns!)
 
Really interesting post, Kate. There seems to be a bit of a split with show dogs -- in Ireland I've seen some very small -- ridiculously small and fragile -- dogs competing at the national show; meanwhile, some of the show breeders I know have fairly large solid dogs, all coming in at the top of the breed standard or over, and they like a solid type of dog. I have seen quite a few breeder debates in the past about where CKCS belong in the dog groupings -- whether they should be moved from toys. I would agree with your idea at this point -- they are the largest in the toy group anyway, aren't they? If people want a smaller spaniel type there are several breeds with spaniel heritage in the toys. I know there's a general feeling amongst some researchers that the small size has a link to the health issues and moving up the chain slightly could be good for the breed on several fronts.

Jaspar is still in breed standard at about 17lbs but is slightly longer legged and very muscular and fit. The difference between him, as a working dog, and the others is quite noticeable. The others have fun doing a kind of mini-agility, but Jaspar is definitely a working dog and his build certainly enables him to do things, and at speed. I've been told several times by serious agility competitors that he's a great working dog and should be competing -- but for me there aren't enough hours in the day... :). Incidentally he is also a clear-scanned dog, remaining absolutely clear between his first MRI at 1 and his second at 5.

It certainly seems the breed standard isn't adhered to at the top weight end though anyway, as I've been told few show males would come in at under 18lbs any more. If that is the case then surely the breed standard needs review? As you say if the breed standard and the classification of the breed changed this creates a different environment of expectation and might help nip the tendency of some trash breeders to produce very undersized cavaliers as if this was some ideal, rather than a health risk and sign of poor quality breeding dogs? :( Also might be overall, good for the breed.
 
PS I have NO idea why some posts end up with narrow margins and some are wider but expect these and other bugs -- such as the fact that you are not taken to the last post, after posting -- will be addressed in the next release, which is scheduled for the end of this week....
 
In-Breeding and CKCS

Yes Mark,

I have wondered this, about maybe the Litters being False.

Coming from Other Cavalier Bitches who were around at the time.

So if this was the case where does it now leave Geneticists Researching the Cavaliers' Health Problems' Mode of Inheritance.

If they can't depend on the Pedigrees , will this information only come from DNA Research.

Just another thought about the Cocker Spaniel Mating with Cavalier, Crest by Candlelight.B/T

He was born 1-11-1949.

Sire

Crownjem by Candlelight...... Ruby

Dam

Curlylocks by Candlelight ......B/t

Back to the In- Breeding of

Plantation Banjo born 19-4-1938. Dog B/t

His sire

Plantation Robert 's

Sire ....Ranger Bimbo

Rangers Bimbo 's Sire ....Peter of Ttiweh ,

Plantation Robert's

Dam.... Plantation Pixie

Plantation Pixie 's Sire ...was Mark of Ttiweh,the Son of Peter of Ttiweh

Plantation Robert 's Dam

Plantation Twinkles.

Her Sire

Kobba of Korunda

and Dam

Rangers Nicky Picky were Half Brother and Sister ...

Hentzau Buck's Hussar was their Sire

It has been mentioned that Ch Daywell Roger's Pedigree is spread like Confetti in Cavalier Pedigrees .

And we wonder why the Cavalier Breed is in a Mess Health Wise.

ANN'S SON'S Pedigree is in doubt, and maybe the Cavalier Pedigrees could also be in doubt during the War Years.

Finally ,the Cavalier Mentioned by Oreo ,no SM/CM,can be traced back to the Cocker Spaniel/ Cavalier Mating,

This mating took place in the early 1950's , and would have nothing to do with the Alteration of the Cavalier Skulls in the 1930's when the Dome Shape of the Skull of the King Charles Spaniels was altered to get the Flat Shape Skull required for the Cavalier Breed.

Did the Cavaliers' Malformed Bone start then ,but in the Cocker /Cavalier Mating ,because of the Cocker Spaniel there would be no Malformed bone involved.

Could this be why in this mating this Cavalier mentioned has no Malformed Bone.

Bet (Hargreaves)
 
Could it be possible Bet that Freckles' offspring were found unsuitable for the breeding programme as they didn't have the desired look or perhaps tragically culled during the war years?It's also likely that during the pre vaccination years that canine disease carried off a fair few and they were large litters anyway?
Sins
 
In-Breeding and CKCS

Sins ,

All Freckles' Litter Puppies were given names.

I mentioned that I am checking on how many Cavalier Bitches were really around during the War, it's going to be surprising .

Even Cavalier Bitches having Litters at One year Old .

Is this one of the causes why Cavaliers are Unhealthy To-Day. ?

Breeding from them at such a young age, and on Concecutive Seasons.?

It has been claimed recently that the Cavalier World has much to thank the Cavalier Breeders during the War for keeping the Cavalire Breed going.

Just One Question ,WHY did Mrs Pitt see fit to say ,that at that time the Cavalier Breeders were giving no thought to the Future of Our Cavalier
Breed!

Bet(Hargreaves)
 
I looked on worldpedigrees and there are six Freckles offspring listed.
There are no dates of birth listed for any of the pups or for Freckles herself.It's easy to assume that all six were from the same litter but of course they may not have been.
Estelle de Fonetnay
Eureka de Fontenay
Prince carol De Fontenay
Princess Bettina De Fontenay
Princess celia de Fontenay
Princess Deanna de Fontenay
Can you trace the dates of birth for those Bet?
It may have been that only a handful of her offspring or even one from any litter was bred from.
Sins
 
Sounds like Princess Bianca was also one of her daughters?

I think that kind of intense breeding must have been common in many breeds back then, Bet, maybe especially after the war when so few dogs were around in many kennels. That period seems to have been when a lot of breeds were reconstructed after almost disappearing over the two world wars.

Certainly the dogs seem to have been viewed more like livestock and many must have lived pretty dire lives especially when there were large numbers kept -- just breeding machines and a life in kennels. I was thinking about this after watching the Horizon programme on dogs recently where they showed the current Russian work on domesticating foxes and the poor things spend their lives in wire/box kennels...
 
In-Breeding and CKCS

Iv'e been back to the Kennel Club Breed Supplements this after-noon.

What I found out was ,that between 1940- 1943,

There were 130 Bitches.

What was noticeable was that were a numberof Litters from Bitches who had consecutive Seasons.

Bet (Hargreaves)
 
I would be cautious of trusting what you read on world pedigrees, I looked up a pedigree of one of my dogs from years ago and discovered major mistakes



Nanette
 
The direct link won't work (even when logged in), Sins -- because it is a database application I presume?
 
Sign in first then try the link. I always forget my user name when making fascinating discoveries on that site. A brother and sister mating was the last thing I found :eek:
 
In - Breeding and CKCS.

If it's OK here is the List of Freckles of Ttiweh's Names in her Litters

Freckles was born

10-10-1937 .She was a Blenheim..

Her Sire

Peter of Ttiweh born 15-7-1928 He was a Ruby

Her Dam

Clarissa of Ttiweh....born..11-9-1932.....She was a Tri.

Her Litters to

Plantation Banjo


1 November 1939.

Prince Angus de Fontenay B/T

Princesse Ariette de Fontenay B/T

Prince Alex. Tri.

Princesse Annabella de Fontenay..Tri


13 July 1940

Princesse Bettina de Fontenay ,B/T

Princesse Belle de Fontenay..Blenheim

Prince Boris de Fontenay..Blenheim

Prince Barri de Fontenay..Ruby

Princesse Berril de Fontenay..Ruby

Princesse Bianca de Fontenay...Ruby


23- March -1941.

Prince Carlos de Fontenay

Prince Carol de Fontenay

Prince Cesar de Fontenay

Princesse Caprice de Fontenay

Princesse Caroline de Fontenay

Princesse Cecile de Fontenay

There were no Colours given for these Cavaliers


19- November- 1941

Prince Chilko de Fontenay

Princesse Celia de Fontenay

Prince Charmy de Fontenay

Princesse Cheri de Fontenay

Princesse Cleo de Fontenay

Prince Conrad de Fontenay

Prince Christian de Fontenay

No Colours given


23-July -1942

Prince Donald de Fontenay

Prince Douglas of Fontenay

Princesse Dariel de Fontenay

Princesse Deanna de Fontenay

Princesse Derna de Fontenay Still no Colours


22- March -1943

Edwina de Fontenay Blenheim

Eddy de Fontenay B/T


Etna de Fontenay..B/T

Edwin de Fontenay..Ruby or Red

Elmina de Fontenay Ruby or Red

Endor de Fontenay..Tri

Estelle de Fontenay..Tri


12 December 1943.Think I gave a wrong date for this Litter.Should be '43 not '42

Ewart de Fontenay ..B/T

Edmonda de Fontenay ..Blenheim

Elgina de Fontenay ...Tri

Eltera de Fontenay....Tri

Eurika de Fontenay ...Tri


There were some Plantation Banjo matings to his Daughters in this List.


Bet (Hargreaves)
 
In- Breeding and CKCS

I vowed I would never be drawn into another Argument, but I just have to respond to this accusation of Spreading Doom and Gloom about the Early Cavalier Pedigrees.

These are Facts about the In-breeding that was carried out in our Cavalier Breed in the Early Days not so long ago.

Are our Cavaliers now paying the Price because of this with the Health Problems now Afflicting many of them. ?

These Facts cannot be covered up , as some would wish to happen.

Bet (Hargreaves)
 
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