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An interesting bit of information

Well Bet,noone said it was ok that 50% of cavaliers had SM.
That would be taking what was said out of context.The point was ,that having made the personal choice to only mate two cavaliers who do not have SM, the 50% of cavaliers who were clear of Syrinxs gave breeders a choice of stock to work with and to move forward.
Sins
 
An Ineresting Bit of Information

All I can say about my Previous Post, how many Carriers from the Random Australian SM Sample will there be.

I still am of the Opinion ,that this is shocking news for the Cavalier World no matter how it is glossed over.

Bet
 
Thanks, Eddy. The sooner Jeff finds out how to read current statistical data and also finds out that SM in Cavaliers is not a one or two percent propostion, the better for him and for the breed. The UK club cannot afford to have an ostrich as its geneticist.
 
RodRussell said:
I think Dr. Child's Australian sample is more valuable than a true random sample, because it is likely limited to (potential?) breeding stock. It is like the heart auscultation exams at conformation shows' clinics in the late 1980s and 1990s, which laid the statistical foundation for the MVD breeding protocol in 1998. Most of the dogs taken to those heart clinics were breeding stock and were intended to be producing the next generation of Cavaliers.
--
Rod Russell
Click to expand...

Very good point -- agree.

Also agree that the good news is the 50% clear -- but ages would be important. How many were over 5/6 too?

I hope such figures might give added incentive to many breeders to scan older cavaliers as it really highlights how affected the breed is with this terrible problem an the need to find those clears -- and of course some with the right dogs in the UK can get scanning fully covered right now from Rupert's Fund! Owners of any potential candidates are very welcome to get more info from posts in the Rupert's Fund forum, or contact Clare Rusbridge. Due to generous response, we have raised enough money to do several more dogs now.
 
EddyAnne: yes the request on the UK Club site still holds -- everyone knows there are many, many scans out there that have not been submitted for either the genome work or to Sarah Blott. Many breeders over time in the UK have noted the many clear results they have had on their cavaliers so if these scans exist on any cavalier, especially older dogs, this information badly needs to get to researchers.

Geoff Skerritt and Chestergates do NOT automatically submit scan results to Sarah Blott so breeders need to do this themselves!! Most scans have been done by Chestergates and I m absolutely sure there's a widespread belief amongst club breeders that all are automatically forwarded. None are forwarded.

Kate: yes have heard along these lines regarding the scheme. The programme also is centred entirely on the several neurologists involved -- it will not be lower level radiologists or clinicians making determinations or reading scans, and the scheme while supported by the KC is not under their control.

Looking at the schedule for the health day in November (so far away! For such an important, current topic of concern to so many breeders and pet owners!) -- it surely is strange that no one associated with the scanning and genome research at the very heart of addressing the problem is speaking or presenting or answering questions. How odd -- and wonder who will be the person telling breeders with questions what the on the ground, informed picture is on research and figures? This is the info they have wanted as a priority at each of the seminars and the two SM conferences. I would think by November that breeders would really want an update as the genome project will be very close to conclusion with results that are of such interest and importance to breeders. It would be a perfect setting for an informed, professional update.
 
I'm hoping that one of the reasons that the CKCS/RVC seminar isn't until November is that by then the RVC trial of a new pain control for SM will have finished being assessed and the RVC man talking about Neuropathic Pain will have something (good!) to tell us.

It is planned that there will be a separate seminar to introduce the scanning scheme - probably at Stoneleigh in October. RVC said there wasn't space in the programme to add it to their seminar. Presumably the neurologists will have their say then.

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
Kate H said:
I think it's the MRI specialists who are going to sort it out, with minimal input from the KC - at least that's the impression I got.
Click to expand...
Kate yes it would be the MRI neurologists and radiologists who are going to sort out anything to do with things like the taking, reading and grading of MRIs. As pointed out earlier it does appear that the KC organises the meetings.

The KC would like to attend the meeting as they would be involved in the setting up and running of the KC Database and its software fields for the Scheme and this to what the Specialists decide. There is also the matter of the database fields being displayed to the public and printed on dogs KC documentation, this might turn out to be somewhat similar to what already occurs with other BVA/KC Schemes such as for Eyes, Hips and Elbows.

There might be costs involved somewhere and if so who is going to pay for it. Also as the KC is organising the meeting maybe they might like to make sure there was some cuppas and biscuits available, and if the meeting was to go on for some time maybe organise some meals.
.
 
Karlin said:
EddyAnne: yes the request on the UK Club site still holds -- everyone knows there are many, many scans out there that have not been submitted for either the genome work or to Sarah Blott. Many breeders over time in the UK have noted the many clear results they have had on their cavaliers so if these scans exist on any cavalier, especially older dogs, this information badly needs to get to researchers.
Click to expand...
Karlin thanks and I think that they may have been asking quite some time for over 5 years of age, but preferably over 7, who have been MRI’d and do not have SM. This I think would be critical to the Genetic Research including the EBV Program. This similarly like with MVD where testing 5 years or older is critical according to the MVD breeding programme. I also have heard of breeders over time mentioning many clear results even on their older dogs and I think that they should make an effort to send the information in along with DNA cheek swabs or "mouth mops".
.
 
Am Interesting Bit of Information

Just a thought ,what can the Meeting in November do.

The Australian SM Random Sample has surely given warning signs about SM in Cavaliers.

Is not the problem that Mandatory Health Testing has to be introduced for Cavalier Breeders.

I don't think that the SM Meeting will do that.

This has got to come from the Kennel Club ,who say that this will be done through the Accredited Breeders Scheme,but at the moment many of the Cavalier Breeders are conspicious by their absence in supporting it.

It was even claimed on the Good Dog, Bad Dog TV Program on Sunday Night that the Accredited Breeder Scheme leaves a lot to be desired .

So how does the Cavalier Breed go forward in tackling the Two Serious Problems afflicting Cavaliers .

All the Cavalier Breeders must give support to the Genome Research which will also benefit Drs S Blott and T. Lewis in the EBV Research.

For a start what could help, this was also mentioned on Sunday's TV Program ,is the Puppy Contract.

Nothing will Focus Dog Breeders minds ,if a Dog Breeders does not Health Test their Breeding Stock ,sells a Dog who developes a Hereditary Problem known to be in the Breed , that the Breeder can be taken to Court

The Cavalier Breed has the MVD Problem ,where 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 Years of Age .

That is Half the Population of Cavaliers.

The Sad thing about this Statement ,Cavalier Breeders were Warned 27 YEARS AGO about how Wide-Spread this Problem was for Cavaliers .

Now comes the Information about SM in Cavaliers from the Australian SM Random Sample, this I believe was from Cavalier Breeding Stock,, will notice be taken now by Cavalier Breeders ,some of whom are still in Denial that the Cavalier Breed is in Big Trouble,or will it be the Case that in 20 years time there will be no Cavalier Breed left.

Finally it was also said on Sunday, that Dog Breeders have got to realize that Dog Breeding is no Longer a Hobby , it is a Serious Business,that Dog Breeders are dealing with the Health of Living Animals.

This sure does apply to our Lovely Cavalier Breed.

Bet
 
RodRussell said:
Thanks, Eddy. The sooner Jeff finds out how to read current statistical data and also finds out that SM in Cavaliers is not a one or two percent propostion, the better for him and for the breed. The UK club cannot afford to have an ostrich as its geneticist.
Click to expand...


What I find so discouraging is that the KC genetics advisor is demonstrating the same blinkered view that he was showing over three years ago.

Despite all the mounting evidence that SM is a serious condition in cavaliers he is still quoting an outdated and discredited survey taken in 2004. This is a survey where the few breeders that bothered to answer self-referred the information about their dogs.

This was before the low cost centres were operating and while there was still widespread denial that SM existed among breeders.

How can the man who is actually chairing the meetings that are setting up an official BVA/KC SM scheme, be so lacking in honesty when providing information in a professional capacity on the KC's own Health Zone?
 
Margaret C said:
How can the man who is actually chairing the meetings that are setting up an official BVA/KC SM scheme, be so lacking in honesty when providing information in a professional capacity on the KC's own Health Zone?
Click to expand...
To clarify note that in the last meeting I mentioned he was an attendee but there was some other meetings that he was the Chair. Being an attendee he would be listening and for reasons like setting-up the KC Database for the BVA/KC Scheme like I mentioned before.

Note in the attendees - Dr Jeff Sampson, Kennel Club
then note at this particular meeting.
Dr Clare Rusbridge, Stone Lion Veterinary Centre (Chairman)
see at this link address which I gave before.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/bva_kc/SM_ MRI_ Nov_ 08.pdf
.
 
An Interesting Bit of Information.

Just noticed that there are comments about what a Random Sample means.

Well to me it means ,that in Australia it was recently mentioned, that about 60 Cavaliers were MRI Scanned , who had not shown any signs of SM.

50% of those Cavaliers were found to be suffering from SM.

I would think that this will give a truer Picture than Cavaliers being MRI Scanned because they have only been MRI Scanned ,because they have been showing Symptoms of SM.

It seems to me that any Excuse will be being used to try and get away from the Fact about the SM Problem in Cavaliers

Bet
 
Bet said:
Hope it's O K passing on this Information.

It's to do with MRI Scan Results of Cavaliers in Australia.

There had been 60 Dogs MRI Scanned ,not cases referred to the Neurologist ,just owners wanting their Dogs Scanned

50 % had a Syrinx ,a Syrinx denotes SM.

I would think just about all Cavaliers in Australia will have originated from Britain in the early days.

These Dogs had not been showing any SM Symptoms.

I would think ,that this is for everybody in the Cavalier World alarming news.

Is it possible that if a number of Cavaliers are MRI Scanned at random, who have shown no signs of SM , 50% of them can have this Insidious
Disease?

Bet
Click to expand...

I am new to this forum and I hope I dont ask to foolish questions.

After reading a litle bit here and there in this forum I see that you all talk about syrinx or not syrinx. I wonder how this is compared to the breeding guidelines where the dog is an A if it has a syrinx of 1,9 mm. When you talk about not syrinx - is it then an A or is it syrinx 0 mm?

I also wonder - the results from the 60 australian MRI scanned dogs - are there a link somewhere that I can read more about this project?

English is not my first language and I am afraid to sound cheeky when I ask questions. I can assure you that is not my intension and if I do I hope you excuse me :)
 
Yes the link on the 60 cavaliers is above, and was originally posted by an Australian breeder:

http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=21782&postcount=5

A dogs are dogs that comply with Clare Rusbridge's definition of an A -- dogs with no syrinx or less than 2mm dilation. But there is also a search on for older dogs with NO syrinx for the genome work -- we are raising funds here through our Ruperts Fund to help pay for scans for such dogs (over 6 and no symptoms, to hopefully find more that have no syrinx at all). There is definitely a difference between an A dog and a dog with no syrinxes -- while some A's have no syrinxes, not all do. :)
 
Karlin said:
Yes the link on the 60 cavaliers is above, and was originally posted by an Australian breeder:

http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=21782&postcount=5

A dogs are dogs that comply with Clare Rusbridge's definition of an A -- dogs with no syrinx or less than 2mm dilation. But there is also a search on for older dogs with NO syrinx for the genome work -- we are raising funds here through our Ruperts Fund to help pay for scans for such dogs (over 6 and no symptoms, to hopefully find more that have no syrinx at all). There is definitely a difference between an A dog and a dog with no syrinxes -- while some A's have no syrinxes, not all do. :)
Click to expand...

Thank you for answering. Do I then understand it right that from the 60 Australian dogs there wore 50 % without syrinx at all - 0mm fluid? Not 50% A?
 
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