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Thread: The unco guid

  1. #1
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    Default The unco guid

    This was a Poem written by Robert Burns ,the Great Scots Poet, after reading Professor Sir P Batesons's Report that for around 40 years many of the Health Problems in Dogs has been known about, this surely applies to our Cavalier Breed's MVD Problem, when the Cavalier Breeders were warned 27 years ago by Dr P.Darke about how serious and wide-spread the MVD Problem was in Cavaliers, that at the CKCS AGM Last year it was stated that 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age,this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

    Where have those Cavalier Breeders been in those 27 years who are professing they have been doing so much for the MVD Problem in the Breed?

    The UNCO GUID sure springs to Mind.

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Default The UNCO GUID

    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    This was a Poem written by Robert Burns ,the Great Scots Poet, after reading Professor Sir P Batesons's Report that for around 40 years many of the Health Problems in Dogs has been known about, this surely applies to our Cavalier Breed's MVD Problem, when the Cavalier Breeders were warned 27 years ago by Dr P.Darke about how serious and wide-spread the MVD Problem was in Cavaliers, that at the CKCS AGM Last year it was stated that 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age,this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

    Where have those Cavalier Breeders been in those 27 years who are professing they have been doing so much for the MVD Problem in the Breed?

    The UNCO GUID sure springs to Mind.

    Bet


    The UNCO GUID

    PS.

    For those who don't understand this Scot's Phrase, should have explained ,that it means,Artifical Saintliness.

    The Bottom Line still is the Question, where were many of those Cavalier Breeders who could have done so much to have helped the Cavaliers suffering from the MVD Problem in the Past 27 years.

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    This was a Poem written by Robert Burns ,the Great Scots Poet, after reading Professor Sir P Batesons's Report that for around 40 years many of the Health Problems in Dogs has been known about, this surely applies to our Cavalier Breed's MVD Problem, when the Cavalier Breeders were warned 27 years ago by Dr P.Darke about how serious and wide-spread the MVD Problem was in Cavaliers, that at the CKCS AGM Last year it was stated that 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age,this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

    The UNCO GUID sure springs to Mind.

    Bet
    I think you've gone a little astray here Bet. According to the Oxford Library of English Poetry Robert Burns lived between 1759 ~& 1796. Are you perhaps suggesting that this was a posthumous perusal of Prof. Bateson's Report - on a broa brecht moonlit night perhaps???????????
    Warmest wishes
    Flo & the ByFloSin Cavaliers
    Rebel, Winston Alexander,Little Joe & Holly Poppet
    Birmingham, UK

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    Default The UNCO GUID

    Quote Originally Posted by ByFloSin View Post
    I think you've gone a little astray here Bet. According to the Oxford Library of English Poetry Robert Burns lived between 1759 ~& 1796. Are you perhaps suggesting that this was a posthumous perusal of Prof. Bateson's Report - on a broa brecht moonlit night perhaps???????????
    No Flo , I was just making a comparison about what Professor Sir P. Bateson had said in his Recent Report about the Health Problems being known in the Dog World for 40 years and the Cavalier MVD Problem for 27 Years, and mentioning some of the UNCO GUID in the Cavalier World who had let this happen to our Cavaliers because of their Artifical Saintliness.

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Hi Bet,
    While I respect your feelings on the matter,I think your comments are unhelpful and insensitive at this particular time.
    It's difficult enough to make sense of the potential repercussions of the BVA/KC scheme for SM and the suitability of existing scans that breeders have invested time and money in obtaining, in order to do their best for the breed....and in order to do their best for the people who buy their pups!!
    I think that's enough of a kick in the stomach for one week.
    A lot of good people are feeling demoralised and cut adrift right now,even to the point that their faith in health testing has been severely tested.
    Cavalier breeders are denied the pleasure of pursuing their hobby in the manner that other breeders take for granted.
    Recently at Fermoy International Show I met a young couple who were doing their first show.They had two cavaliers and had done a few ringcraft lessons and to their surprise and delight they went Best Pup in breed on their very first day out with her.
    Sadly I felt very badly for them when another exhibitor(not cavalier) pointed out the awful mess that the breed is in with Syringomyelia and burst their bubble.Hopefully they'll appear again but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.
    I got an offer of a new pup this week.Normally I'd be bouncing with excitement but it all just feels flat.
    So I think Bet,it's time to stop flogging those who are genuinely trying,those who really couldn't care less about cavalier health are not the ones who will be reading CT or CC.
    There are some green shoots of hope for the breed.Let's not smother them before they emerge.
    Sins

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    Default The UNCO GUID

    Quote Originally Posted by sins View Post
    Hi Bet,
    While I respect your feelings on the matter,I think your comments are unhelpful and insensitive at this particular time.
    It's difficult enough to make sense of the potential repercussions of the BVA/KC scheme for SM and the suitability of existing scans that breeders have invested time and money in obtaining, in order to do their best for the breed....and in order to do their best for the people who buy their pups!!
    I think that's enough of a kick in the stomach for one week.
    A lot of good people are feeling demoralised and cut adrift right now,even to the point that their faith in health testing has been severely tested.
    Cavalier breeders are denied the pleasure of pursuing their hobby in the manner that other breeders take for granted.
    Recently at Fermoy International Show I met a young couple who were doing their first show.They had two cavaliers and had done a few ringcraft lessons and to their surprise and delight they went Best Pup in breed on their very first day out with her.
    Sadly I felt very badly for them when another exhibitor(not cavalier) pointed out the awful mess that the breed is in with Syringomyelia and burst their bubble.Hopefully they'll appear again but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.
    I got an offer of a new pup this week.Normally I'd be bouncing with excitement but it all just feels flat.
    So I think Bet,it's time to stop flogging those who are genuinely trying,those who really couldn't care less about cavalier health are not the ones who will be reading CT or CC.
    There are some green shoots of hope for the breed.Let's not smother them before they emerge.
    Sins
    The UNCO GUID

    Sins,

    My Comments are in no way referring to the SM Problem, I just don't know what you are meaning about what has happened this week.

    I am making my comments about the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed which has for so many years been sadly neglected by a good number of Cavalier Breeders.

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Default

    Well said Sins, for what it is worth, I agree with everything you have said, especially as two of mine were scanned at Chester Gates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bet, I and many others were testing for MVD over 25 years ago. It is difficult to breed something out when you haven't yet been able to identify and eliminate the inheritance factors that cause it. I don't want to upset you, as I know you mean well and are a very nice person at heart, but please try to understand that there is a difference between owning and losing a dog(s) to MVD and breeding with health in mind.

    My heart is breaking at the moment because of what has come to light this week and I am sure many others feel the same. Let's be constructive here and work together to try to make things better for the dogs.
    Warmest wishes
    Flo & the ByFloSin Cavaliers
    Rebel, Winston Alexander,Little Joe & Holly Poppet
    Birmingham, UK

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    Could I say that having collected pedigrees of Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble ,and sent onto the Researchers, Margaret Carter broke the Golden Rule KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT !!!! Never ever divulge what you know . Margaret Carter on TV ,spouted to Millions ,now we know the consequences of her irresponsible action. Maybe she should have learned the Saying Lord ,keep Your Arm Around my Shoulder BUT YOUR HAND OVER MY MOUTH ! Bet Hargreaves
    So Bet,
    When you knew all about the MVD problem,is this what you did about it?Did you observe the golden rule?
    It's pointless now complaining what people allegedly did and didn't do for MVD.
    The past is gone...
    what matters is the future.
    Sins

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    Default The UNCO GUID

    Quote Originally Posted by sins View Post
    So Bet,
    When you knew all about the MVD problem,is this what you did about it?Did you observe the golden rule?
    It's pointless now complaining what people allegedly did and didn't do for MVD.
    The past is gone...
    what matters is the future.
    Sins
    Sins.

    For around 20 years I collected Pedigrees of Cavaliers who were suffering from Heart Trouble, sent them to the Researchers looking into this Condition in our Cavalier Breed.

    I would have about 400 .

    I don't know what you mean by the Golden Rule, you've lost me, I have only been a Cavalier Pet Owner who has had
    many Tears because of the early Deaths of of some of our Cavaliers, my complaint is ,and I will keep repeating it, ...

    Why ,when 27 years ago ,Cavalier Breeders were warned that the Cavalier Breed had a Serious and Wide-Spread Heart Problem, and even last year ,it was said that 50% 0f Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of Age, that this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

    Who else can you Blame but the Cavalier Breeders who have allowed this to happen?

    For sure we are where we are in connection with the MVD Problem , where the Heart Researchers are now saying ,that because of what was allowed to happen in the Past ,it could be Possible most Cavaliers could now be Carriers of the MVD GENE/GENES/.

    I don't want to get into an Argument about the SM and MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed,they are both I would say ,the Two most Serious Diseases to Afflict any Breed of Dog,one is as Bad as the other .,when you said about the Cavalier Breed being in such a Mess because of SM, just remember it is in as Big a Mess because of their MVD Problem.

    This should never be being forgotten about.

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Default

    I have two issues with the your arguments Bet.
    1) you expect immediate results on MVD in breeding. How do you propose doing this? Assuming that a generation is 3 years in dogs (this would be a low estimate 5 years is probably more accurate) there would be 6-7 generations of dogs since MVD was first announced as a major problem. For traits with simple inheritance 6-7 generations would be enough that the desired type would start to be "fixed" in the population. MVD we know has several genes impacting the trait, and these genes have not been identified so no test is available to determine if a dog is a carrier. Using phenotype alone (does a dog have MVD) it would surprising to see any significant gains in a matter like MVD. Take a moment to consider the animals defining genetic research: yeast, fruit flies, c.elegans, zebrafish, mice. The generation gap on these is hours to weeks at the longest. The reason cats, dogs, monkeys, and even rats are less common in this field is that it takes too long to establish a population with the traits you want. Breeding to affect a change will take time, even in the best of situations. The fact that puppy mills breed with no regard to health will only make it more difficult to detect when any positive change has occured.

    2) I understand that Margaret Carter chose to publicly disclose knowledge about the health of specific dogs. And while you are entitled to support her decision to do so, I found it a despicable action. The owner of a dog should have the right to confidentiality of their dog's health. Those results should be shared with owner's of other dogs who intend to breed to the dog, and prospective puppy buyers. But the onus is on others to request this information. The fact that this dog had health scanning done, and had shared those results with the club health committee indicates that the owner was thinking about health. To expect that bringing public fury onto this owner would encourage others to health test their stock, and cooperate with the club's health committee is insanity.

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