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Thread: Newly Elected UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE MEMBERS.

  1. #21
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    and I think many breeders will not take the scheme seriously until this is changed.
    You raise some good points, Nicki. I agree fully with your point above; this is a huge issue. Either the Accredited Breeders scheme has to mean something -- and require proof of actual testing and adherence to whatever the defined best practice is, or it becomes (as it has been in the past) a meaningless promotional tool that can be exploited by puppy farmers.

    The scan issue IS a headache for breeders -- you are very right -- but I think is a tangle that needs to be taken up with Chestergates and the BVA by the new Club committee in some formal meetings. I do think however that many breeders surely should have seen these issues coming a long while back -- many breeders knowingly chose a scanning centre that has always been outside the existing organised assessment programmes for grading dogs with SM (Chestergates has never participated in the grading scheme, for example) -- but at the same time to be fair to them and their long-standing generosity, has provided great support and service to breeders at a budget price. Budget services often mean limitations are to be expected though and it surprises me that breeders would be really shocked to find the scans don't suit whatever strict scan definitions are needed for a formal scanning assessment programme like the proposed BVA scheme (and is a bit ironic if on the other hand there's a complaint that the Accredited Breeders scheme be more strict for many of the same reasons -- schemes mean little without standard requirements). Also while some are clearly honestly very upset, many of those complaining are those who have tried openly or behind scenes to discredit scanning, researchers, research projects, incidence figures -- and now they are shocked, shocked at this development which --surprise! -- gives them another drum to bang to encourage people not to participate in a scheme they went through the motions of supporting once upon a time (funny how many projects and programmes suddenly become unreasonable for these usual suspects when it comes to actually accepting results or actively participating...).

    Also, the possibility of issues around Chestergate scans for a strict scanning assessment programme have been there for quite some time and should really have been pretty obvious to the previous club committee -- who were involved in discussions on the BVA scheme -- and many scanning breeders. For example, there has been a recommended minimum standard for scans that many scanning centres jointly backed way back when the BVA scheme was first mooted and initial meetings were held (and Chestergates were part of these meetings). Though Chestergates were never part of the grading scheme, many -- perhaps most -- UK breeders opted to have scans done there anyway, and then assign their own grades, which has always been a problematical situation, given that if a centre was not following a set of guidelines agreed upon by grading neurologists and actually assessing scans on some different elements as well, then it is very hard to have had consistency in interpretation. This is made difficult too by the fact that no digital scan disk is given with Chestergate scans or will be shared with other neurologists. That meant that breeders and clubs have always, in opting with Chestergates, worked outside some existing scan standards (yet so many breeders at the same time were worried about consistent interpretation and scan positioning -- obviously the issue became cost, but these are some of the reasons perhaps why scans cost more in some locations than others).

    At the same time, Chestergates has enabled hundreds of breeders to get scans they might not otherwise have been able to afford; have given good basic information, and benefited breeders, clubs and dogs who might not otherwise have been diagnosed while identifying better breeding prospects.

    For a grading programme to be meaningful, the BVA has to create a scanning programme that is the best possible, is consistent, and based on sharable digital scans that conform to some selected standard -- in this case, specific head positioning, time of exposure, quality of MRI machine, etc. These elements were discussed very early on -- breeders attended at least one of the initial meetings as well. If scans have been done that fall outside the standard, or a scanning centre chooses not to participate in the BVA scheme, that seems an issue the CKCS Club committee should be meeting with the BVA and Chestergates about. For many of the dogs already scanned, they will within just a couple of years be beyond breeding age anyway. For studs, if they are 6 then perhaps they can be scanned by Rupert's Fund money... the Chestergates issue really is very short term as scans are not a meaningful grade until the dogs are 2.5, and most girls will stop being bred by 5 or 6 so there's only a 'live window' for a scan of about three years. But it would be well worth the effort to have Chestergate scans be part of the scheme in future -- which again seems to be a good initial mediation issue for the UK Club committee to take on on behalf of their membership!

    Finally -- as neurologists have stated and research is already showing, rescanning (or scanning) dogs at 5 or 6 is almost certainly MORE important than scanning the dogs for earlier breeding at 2.5 -- it is the status of those dogs at age 5 or 6 plus that really indicates the SM status of the breeding dog and line. Many cavaliers that scan well at 2.5 may go on to develop significant syrinxes (just as heart clear 2.5 year olds may get MVD by 5) and breeders need more to know the status of the middle aged dog to get a real picture of that dog and line. Statistician David Harwood, who many breeders have listened to as he has carefully studied pedigrees and research, believes it is more valuable to scan any breeding dog's parents than it is to scan the breeding dog if you really want useful information. And he believes scanning dogs age 6+ is absolutely critical, especially for the genome research -- where he believes the Rupert's Fund dogs have been groundbreaking for the research results. So there are really excellent reasons for rescanning the slightly older dogs. And there is a fund to help those scans happen -- researchers are actively looking for age 6+ stud dogs for example.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  2. #22
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    Default Newly elected uk ckcs club committee members.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    NEWLY ELECTED UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE MEMBERS

    Could I just mention , that for the Editor of CHATTERBOX ,who wrote last week's disgracefull Article about what Makes a Good Committee Member,I am sure there will be many Cavalier Owners shocked by what was written, especially when the Public are now so aware about the the SM and MVD Problems Afflicting our Cavalier Breed ,and she made no mention about A Good Committee Member should have this as their NO 1 Priority.

    Also as I mentioned in a previous Post ,None of the Newly Elected UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE MEMBERS are

    Accredited Breeders, which surely is a Matter that should be given concern to the UK CKCS CLUB, since the Kennel Club is giving so much Publicity to their Accredited Breeders Scheme.

    Bet

    NEWLY ELECTED UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE MEMBERS.

    Is this another NAIL in the COFFIN for our Cavalier Breed and their Health Problems.

    This was Posted on the CC LIST by one of the Newly Elected UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE MEMBERS..

    30-3- 2010,saying about the Incidence of MVD Figures for Cavaliers,that she NEVER Believed that 50% of the Cavalier Breed will have a Heart Murmur by 5 Years of AGE.

    This coming from a now Member of the UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE MEMBER,I don't think it Bodes well for the CKCS Health Problems to be being Taken Seriously .

    Will nothing now be being believed that the Heath Researchers tell the UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE. ?

    Was this a one off Claim made by this Newly Elected CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE MEMBER or are there others on the COMMITTEE who are in Agreement with her.?

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    Bet (Hargreaves)

  3. #23
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    Default Newly elected uk ckcs club committee members

    Quote Originally Posted by wotton12000 View Post
    Would just like to add that if anyone intends making an appointment to see their MP (please do) I'm more than happy to help.

    You can email me at carol@cavaliercampaign.com or phone 01453 843944

    I have written to all 647 newly elected MPs asking them for their support in the reform of dog breeding, and inserting the recommendations which are on my website.

    Each MP will receive a personally addressed and signed letter through the post.

    I could not have done this without the help of Tania Ledger who provided me with stationery, photocopying and postage. Thank you so much, Tania.

    So, if you go to visit your MP he/she will already have received a letter from me and should have some awareness of the issue. A visit from one of their constituents in person will make sure that they cannot ignore, and you will be helping hugely.

    I haven't heard officially which of the Cavalier Club AGM proposals have been accepted or rejected but what's leaking out doesn't look good. The Clubs look after people not dogs and the breed is not safe in their hands.

    Carol


    CAROL , what a great job you and Tania have done, what a lot of Work you have put into doing this.

    The more you read your Post, the more you begin to realize what all this has Entailed.

    You never said a Truer Word ,when now it seems to Be that The CKCS BREED CLUB is not safe in Hands of Some who don't seem to be Dedicated to the Health Problems in our Cavalier Breed.,by the Reading of Past Posts that some of them have Posted. ..and the Snide Remarks made about some of the Researchers who are involved in Researching the Cavaliers' Health Troubles.

    What I can't understand is ,how it is ,and this was Mentioned at the UK CKCS CLUB'S AGM last Saturday, and has appeared on the CLUB WEB SITE , that around 3,000 Cavaliers have been MRI Scanned, and the AHT Researchers Said at their last Seminar ,that they have only received about 500 MRI Scans.

    Did all those missing MRI Scans have worrying Results, and some Cavalier Breeders don't wan't this to be being known about.?

    If this is the case , then the EBV Information ,would I think be being Skewed.

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  4. #24
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    Thank you so much for clarifying things Karlin - many will not have been aware of the histroy or that Chestergates were initially involved in meetings. People have been saying that Chestergates were not aware of what was happening with regards to the BVA scheme



    I guess some felt that as the Cavalier Clubs were arranging the low cost schemes at Chestergates, it was validating these procedures over and above the minimum standard for scans that many scanning centres were following, and the grading scheme.

    We are extremely grateful for the service that Mr Skerritt has provided, in that it has allowed many more Cavaliers to be scanned than would otherwise have been the case - and in most cases, breeding decisions have been made on the evidence of these scans rather than leaving things to chance...

    I think many people liked being given the films of the scans - and also often having a mini consultation with Mr Skerritt - he also sometimes advised on breeding decisions.


    Obviously these issues should have been resolved long ago and standard, consistent system of carrying out the MRIs and grading the results put in place.
    Nicki and the Cavalier Clan Our photos www.scotlandimagery.com
    Supporting www.rupertsfund.com and www.cavaliermatters.org

  5. #25
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    Default Newly elected uk ckcs club committee members

    [QUOTE=Bet;362480]NEWLY ELECTED UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE MEMBERS.

    Is this another NAIL in the COFFIN for our Cavalier Breed and their Health Problems.

    This was Posted on the CC LIST by one of the Newly Elected UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE MEMBERS..

    30-3- 2010,saying about the Incidence of MVD Figures for Cavaliers,that she NEVER Believed that 50% of the Cavalier Breed will have a Heart Murmur by 5 Years of AGE.

    This coming from a now Member of the UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE MEMBER,I don't think it Bodes well for the CKCS Health Problems to be being Taken Seriously .

    Will nothing now be being believed that the Heath Researchers tell the UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE. ?



    Newly Elected UK CKCS Club Committee Members.

    I have just been reading back Posts from some of the Newly Elected CKCS Club Committee, even one which had appeared in an Article in Dog World about SM ,which seemed to be giving the impression about doubting about the SM Problem in Cavaliers.

    I think that now, we who are so concerned about the Health Problems in our Cavalier Breed , will just have to accept that there are some on the Committee who are taking a different View of the Health of Cavaliers than what we do.

    With RUPERT'S FUND ,and Margaret's SM Cavalier Collection Scheme, us like minded Cavalier Lovers will have to give all the support we can to both those Two Worth While Causes.

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    Bet (Hargreaves)

  6. #26
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    I'm sure if definate criteria have been laid down for the BVA/KC test Chestergates will be more than capable of making the changes needed.
    Where ever scans have been done and however precisely I doubt they would automatically be allowed to be resubmitted and recieve the same grade ie a pass no SM present as some breeders hoped. Isn't it a bit like getting your car checked over as safe and expecting the MOT mechanic to issue the MOT certificate many months later? Any fault could develop in the intervening time, likewise with SM it is I understand progresive?
    It seems more realistic to start fresh with the BVA/KC test whenever it is up and running and accept the previous scans for what they were, the best tool we had at the time.
    I also am sceptical that the uptake of scans under the BVA/KC system will be popular,after all the results will be public pass or fail. Time will tell of course.

  7. #27
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    I also am sceptical that the uptake of scans under the BVA/KC system will be popular,after all the results will be public pass or fail. Time will tell of course.
    Sadly I'd agree here. While as Nicki notes there are honest frustrations for some caught by surprise, I think much of the public complaining in certain quarters is more to have a nice public excuse as to why they are not involved in a project they never intended to participate in and scan for, in the first place. How that crowd love to be able to attack any research project,even when done for their benefit.

    After all, look at the precedent so far for breeder-supported breeding information programmes based on breeder-submitted information *from scans which they already have and which can be used immediately*. Too few cavalier MRIs of the thousand-plus or so now done in the UK alone, many by breeders, have been submitted for the EBV scheme to Dr Sarah Blott, and she has been requesting these for over two years. The bulk of scans would be from Chestergates, and all useable information for the EBV programme.... which has not been able to be launched for cavaliers because as the researchers explained, *there aren't enough scans submitted yet to make the programme useable*. This must be deeply depressing to those breeders who have scanned, submitted, supported research, and hoped for the fruits of this project now delayed by the indifference to the health of the breed shown by too many of their fellow breeders.

    There certainly have been crossed wires about who was automatically submitting information amongst the scanning centres but this site and many other people have drawn attention to this issue and the regional clubs and national committee could easily have led an effort to educate their members and get these results for Dr Blott. By contrast the clubs seem very adept at gathering members for EGMs. Perfect demonstration of how the clubs themselves and their survival and social scene, rather than the breed's welfare, seem to be at the heart of what the clubs are for. New blood is certainly needed on the committees nationally to change this depressing situation.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  8. #28
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    I do have difficulty with the excuse we were not aware we had to submit the data to the researchers ourselves theory. It has been publicised so much and we are led to believe so any breeders are now scanning the researchers should be overwhelmed with results.
    The Cavalier Clubs own MRI list and over 5's heart clear list are proof enough that the willingness isn't there YET to support health openly.There are over 400 UK scans listed on the MRI list but I feel sure there are many missing. The Over 5 heart list is poorly supported and even less when a cardiology cert was required. If as we are told so many dogs are being scanned clear and heart health is so great why oh why aren't breeders willing to put names on their own clubs list ?
    Like Nikki I feel that Club committees should lead by example. Like it or not people new to showing , breeding and cavalier ownership often look to them and follow what they do .They should at the very least follow their own Club initiatives.

  9. #29
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    Having just been on the CKCS Club site I see The new Health Report from Health Rep Maggie Ford.
    Potentially I find it very encouraging ,future BVA//KC tests for hearts as well as SM and the BVA/KC eye test we had allready. Via the KC website a great means to reasearch the health results of the ancestors of our potential sire in a mating or our new puppy.
    I say potentially because these tests must be used and being that the results are public I am still sceptical. That said IF we are to believe that the Cavalier Club and committee do put health as a priority this is a wonderful chance to prove it. I for one won't finger point if they get bad results occasionally ,I will admire them for taking the lead. So I will wait and see!

  10. #30
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    Default Newly elected uk ckcs club committee members

    Quote Originally Posted by Evelyn View Post
    Having just been on the CKCS Club site I see The new Health Report from Health Rep Maggie Ford.
    Potentially I find it very encouraging ,future BVA//KC tests for hearts as well as SM and the BVA/KC eye test we had allready. Via the KC website a great means to reasearch the health results of the ancestors of our potential sire in a mating or our new puppy.
    I say potentially because these tests must be used and being that the results are public I am still sceptical. That said IF we are to believe that the Cavalier Club and committee do put health as a priority this is a wonderful chance to prove it. I for one won't finger point if they get bad results occasionally ,I will admire them for taking the lead. So I will wait and see!

    Newly Elected UK CKCS Club Committee Members


    I have just read on the UK CKCS CLUB WEB SITE, the mention which was given by Evelyn in her Post, what struck me what was written, was that the" Identifying the GENES for CM/SM is all down to Dr .C. Rusbridge and the Team of Genetic Researchers she is working with with in Canada"

    I feel that at last ,it is being realized by the CKCS CLUB how important Dr Rusbridge's Research is,and that the Finding of those Genes is the only answer to the CM/SM Problem in our Cavalier Breed.

    Karlin mentioned in a Recent Post ,that One Gene had been near enough found, I think that that this so Important and should Never be being Forgotten about ,and be giving such Hope for the Future for the Cavalier Breed.

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