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Thread: Going to see a puppy...

  1. #1
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    Default Going to see a puppy...

    We are hopefully going to see some puppies next week in Georgia. If anyone has knowledge of Georgia show/breeders and would be willing to help us with our "background check", per se, via pm, with their own list of recommended breeders that we can compare names with and see if any of the same recommended people show up, it would be greatly appreciated. I got this person's name from another show home who no longer breeds, but I really want to do this right, and make sure all our i's are dotted and t's are crossed . I also know the dad's name of one of the puppies, and the mom's name of the other (I apparently wrote the other mom and dad's names down wrong, or I can't read my own writing, either one is possible for me ). The breeder is sending me pics hopefully this evening. The parents have had all their appropriate health checks from the specialists. The puppies won't be ready to go home for a while yet.

    I have read the puppy guides, etc. here and they were very helpful. Thanks.
    Last edited by Furrfoot; 24th July 2010 at 05:15 AM.

  2. #2
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    Hi, I actually just got two cavalier puppies from breeders in Georgia so let me know if I can help at all!

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    Hmmmm....you may want to go back and review the various recommended tests - not just for parents but for grandparents. For example, in the MVD breeding protocol, both parents should be over the age of 2.5 and be cardiologist cleared AND all four grandparents should be over the age of 5 and cardiologist cleared. Before you see any puppies, you would want to see copies of all of the official tests and certifications.

    I am in Atlanta, and I've had 12 Cavaliers since the late 1980's so I've been around for awhile. I've been quite active in breed health and pet owner education. I know of no breeder in the state that follows all of the recommended health testing (i.e., MVD protocol set by group of cardiologists, SM protocol, OFA hip, patellas, CERF for eyes, etc. Sorry, but PM won't help because if I can't recommend a breeder, I won't say anything at all about the person.

    Pat
    Pat B
    Atlanta, GA

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    Hmmm...well, darn. Their website (I know, I know) said that they have a certified Cardiologist check the parents hearts and an Opthamologist check the eyes. I found a grandparent of one puppy and one parent dog of another puppy on the OFA website. I forgot to ask about any patella checks *facepalm*. I did print out everything I am supposed to ask about. I can't seem to find any breeders in the southeast who do the SM MRI screening *sigh*.

    I guess I should have said that better, I am hoping that the breeders we are looking at will show up on someone else's Georgia "recommended breeders" list, not that I was looking for a thumbs up or down on a breeder by fellow club members, as I have read the club ethics, etc.. That was poorly put, sorry. I fixed it in the original post.
    Last edited by Furrfoot; 24th July 2010 at 05:16 AM. Reason: making original question clearer

  5. #5
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    I will send you a PM, but I do have a bit of general advice for USA buyers that are struggling to find a puppy from scanned parents.

    There are very few breeders that scan in the USA. That means that SM is a growing risk when you buy a puppy.

    Go to the MRI list on the UK Club website. www.thecavalierclub.co.uk There are some USA and Canadian breeders that are willing to show the world that they scan ( but do not take it for granted that all the dogs listed are free of SM, so make sure you see certificates and know how to read them )

    Buy from someone that does scan, even if you have to wait, or spend months searching. Things will not change until those wanting a puppy walk away from breeders that do not do all the health tests and show buyers the results.

    Pet puppies are expensive in the USA, it may be worth making enquiries about buying a puppy from scanned and heart tested parents here in the UK.
    Although you will have to pay transportation costs it may not cost much more than a homegrown unscanned puppy.
    Last edited by Margaret C; 24th July 2010 at 05:51 PM. Reason: Senior moment... wrote breeders instead of buyer in first sentence
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furrfoot View Post
    Hmmm...well, darn. Their website (I know, I know) said that they have a certified Cardiologist check the parents hearts and an Opthamologist check the eyes. I found a grandparent of one puppy and one parent dog of another puppy on the OFA website. I forgot to ask about any patella checks *facepalm*. I did print out everything I am supposed to ask about. I can't seem to find any breeders in the southeast who do the SM MRI screening *sigh*.

    I guess I should have said that better, I am hoping that the breeders we are looking at will show up on someone else's Georgia "recommended breeders" list, not that I was looking for a thumbs up or down on a breeder by fellow club members, as I have read the club ethics, etc.. That was poorly put, sorry. I fixed it in the original post.
    That is a very common half-assed "adaptation" of the MVD breeding protocol that many breeders make. They may well have a cardiologist (usually Gil Jacobs in this area) clear heart certificate for parents, but the parents may not be over 2.5 years old WITH all four grandparents heart clear over the age of 5. You would have to see SIX clear heart certificates and the ages would need to be appropriate to the protocol. Some breeders count on puppy buyers not understanding the details of the protocol requirements. Many local breeders do have an ophthalmologist check eyes. But far fewer do hip x-rays, and hip dysplasia is a problem in the breed.

    Were I looking to purchase a puppy, I'd be talking to breeders in other states - Virginia, Ohio, Illinois, the Northeast. These breeders, in turn, might be able to recommend other breeders.

    I'm not concerned with the club code of ethics. I was a member (original club) for many years but stopped renewing my membership about ten years ago because of complete frustration with the "head in the sand" attitude and the lack of open, honest communication about health issues in the breed. My own priorities and club priorities were too out of alignment to continue the relationship.

    As I sit here typing, there is a 3 year old girl lying at my feet that is staying with me for five days. (She was spayed by my vet along with another rescue Cavalier on Thursday, and I am permitted to be in surgery which made the owner more comfortable than using her own vet.) This girl has the highest conformation credentials that a Cavalier can possess, but the current owner clearly recognizes that she should not reproduce. Her vision is quite compromised due to juvenile cataracts, and she takes meds four times a day for SM. (I will add that she is heart clear.) This situation is all too common, and it is discussed in whispered private conversations rather than in frank, open discussions. So novices to the breed are at a distinct disadvantage when searching for a puppy, and they too frequently learn via very painful personal experiences.

    On another topic, speaking of "this neck of the woods".........the AVMA convention is taking place in Atlanta next weekend, and I am registered. Curtis Dewey and Andy Shores both have sessions on SM which I plan to attend, along with about 20 other sessions on various topics including heart disease. There are several hundred sessions offered in total. This is an incredible opportunity to learn a great deal. In my perfect world, I'd run into many breeders at these sessions as they sought to learn as much as they could.

    Pat
    Pat B
    Atlanta, GA

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    This girl has the highest conformation credentials that a Cavalier can possess, but the current owner clearly recognizes that she should not reproduce. Her vision is quite compromised due to juvenile cataracts, and she takes meds four times a day for SM. (I will add that she is heart clear.) This situation is all too common, and it is discussed in whispered private conversations rather than in frank, open discussions. So novices to the breed are at a distinct disadvantage when searching for a puppy, and they too frequently learn via very painful personal experiences.
    I battled with that attitude for six years before Pedigree Dogs Exposed was broadcast. There is a lot more openess now and most, but still not all, show breeders are scanning at least some of their dogs.

    As it is becoming more acceptable to talk openly about SM it is amazing to find out how many breeders, large and small, had affected dogs diagnosed during the last decade but lacked the courage, or the integrity, to speak out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    On another topic, speaking of "this neck of the woods".........the AVMA convention is taking place in Atlanta next weekend, and I am registered. Curtis Dewey and Andy Shores both have sessions on SM which I plan to attend, along with about 20 other sessions on various topics including heart disease. There are several hundred sessions offered in total. This is an incredible opportunity to learn a great deal. In my perfect world, I'd run into many breeders at these sessions as they sought to learn as much as they could.

    Pat
    There are some wonderful opportunities to learn these days and in my ideal world breeders would be there to hear the research findings from the specialists. Instead they are usually conspicous by their absence.

    At very least people planning to breed should be reading the information that is easily available online, instead of listening to half truth and misinformation put about by those who care more for their standing in the show world than the future of the cavalier breed.

    Two years have passed since Dr Sarah Blott talked to the cavalier clubs, and some people still choose to believe that SM has not yet been proved to be inherited.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  8. #8
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    Is having a scanned littermate/full sibling with a good scan worth anything?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Furrfoot View Post
    Is having a scanned littermate/full sibling with a good scan worth anything?
    Not particularly as it could be a lucky one-off. Any litter can contain puppies with a mix of good and bad scans.

    Having both parents scanned at over 2.5 years and knowledge of MRI results in many of the extended family would be better.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  10. #10
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    I also found a daughter of the scanned dog with an MRI scan...is it getting any better? And, a half sister to the stud dogs (maternal side) also with a scan...
    (thanks for the help)

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