Cavaliers of the past

I know Great Mention is being made about Cavaliers from the Past at the Forth Coming Blenheim Show ,but I really do wonder how many of those Cavaliers could have carried the Faulty Genes and be Responsible for the Health Problems that are Afflicting To-Days' Cavaliers.

We know that it is a Fact that there were Cavaliers with Heart Trouble in the 1940's and 1950's, so the Cavaliers' Heart Problem has come from some of those early Cavaliers.

I would think that knowing this information, and 50% Cavaliers having a Heart Murmur at 5-6years of age, there is not much to be Celebrating about Past Cavaliers.

Bet

They may have passed on a poor legacy in some respects, but if it weren't for the Cavaliers of the past, we wouldn't have the Cavaliers of today. Their legacy also includes the loving, gentle nature, the enjoyment of human company, the pleasure they take in country walks, the intelligence - all the things we value so much in our own Cavaliers today. Surely we can celebrate the ancestors of our wonderful dogs - they weren't to blame for the present situation, that distinction belongs to a very small number of breeders who shut their eyes to what was happening, or acted out of ignorance, at a time when less was known about genetics, DNA, inheritance patterns, etc. It's the breeders who know perfectly well what is happening but still don't follow breeding protocols or MRI scan who are culpable. So I for one shall enjoy seeing photos of some of the early Cavaliers.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

:xctly: Nice post; Kate -- I agree. The focus must be on changing the current situation and the tools are in part already there -- tests, cardiologists, MRIs, protocols. I don't think there's much point in rehashing decisions made generations ago (though there's every reason to focus on poor decisions still being made now). If more supported the genome research, the gene test breeders want will likely be there too.

I fear too many still simply want to live for right now, breed the dogs that are useful to them for show or for income, and then let come what may as far as the future of the breed or the individual dogs they breed. That includes show breeders, club members, BYBs and puppy farmers. They all will inflict the same damage if they just use what my maths teacher used to call the 'guess and by golly' method of solving a problem for breeding. Sometimes it works, but increasingly when it doesn't, it damns countless dogs to a shortened, painful life.

I agree totally with the last two posts!! I think there are as many positives as negatives with the breed...The more breeders that learn from the past the better!!

I hope the future for Cavaliers is brighter, with word of mouth and the power of the internet and sites like this helping potential owners to ask the right questions and encouraging breeders to do what is right!!

Teresa

Bet,
Sometimes it may seem like there are more problems than solutions.Very many breeders and pet owners are only too aware of the very serious issues which bring misery and pain to much loved pets.
But it's vital to remain positive despite the many challenges facing the breed and after all the doom and gloom of recent years, who could begrudge cavalier lovers a weekend of fun and excitement to enjoy all things cavalier?
So much hard work has gone into this to make it a real extravaganza for everyone who shares an interest in the breed.
Hopefully it'll be a huge success and leave many with happy memories of a wonderful weekend.
Sins

Kate H said:

They may have passed on a poor legacy in some respects, but if it weren't for the Cavaliers of the past, we wouldn't have the Cavaliers of today. Their legacy also includes the loving, gentle nature, the enjoyment of human company, the pleasure they take in country walks, the intelligence - all the things we value so much in our own Cavaliers today. Surely we can celebrate the ancestors of our wonderful dogs - they weren't to blame for the present situation, that distinction belongs to a very small number of breeders who shut their eyes to what was happening, or acted out of ignorance, at a time when less was known about genetics, DNA, inheritance patterns, etc. It's the breeders who know perfectly well what is happening but still don't follow breeding protocols or MRI scan who are culpable. So I for one shall enjoy seeing photos of some of the early Cavaliers.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

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CAVALIERS OF THE PAST

Could I just add ,that I hope particular note will be being taken by all who will be looking at the Photos of Past Cavaliers, how much the Cavaliers Heads have altered from those Past Cavaliers ,how much Smaller they have become,is this linked to Cavalier SM Problem since the SM Researchers have said that the Minuterizing of Cavaliers is involved with their SM Problem.

If I could just mention ,that yes, a Good number of Cavalier Breeders are to blame for the MVD Problem that afflicts the Cavalier Breed to-day, I have said before ,that Dr P.Darke ,the CKCS CLUB'S Cardiologist ,in 1983 warned the Cavalier Breeders about the the Wide-Spread MVD Problem in the Cavalier Breed after taking Heart Surveys at Cavalier Shows, and as a result of his findings ,the CKCS CLUB issued Breeding Guidelines for the MVD Problem in 1987.

As we are all were aware , these Breeding Guidelines are still being ignored ,that in the PDE TV Program,mention was made, that every one of the Top Stud Dogs ,at the time of the Program, had been used Under AGE and every one,being used out -side of the Breeding Guidelines .

I have said before ,when the Blenheim Show was first mentioned, it was said this was to improve the Image Of Cavaliers.

I wonder if this was to try and convince the Prospective Cavalier Buying Public, that the Cavalier Breed is not Battling with Two Huge Health Problems ,MVD and SM.

Yes, have a good day at the Blenheim Show,but I hope mention will be made of the Cavaliers over the Years who never had the chance to live to a Normal Old Age because of those Two Diseases, and the Many Cavaliers who are still suffering from them.

Bet

Bet said:

CAVALIERS OF THE PAST

Could I just add ,that I hope particular note will be being taken by all who will be looking at the Photos of Past Cavaliers, how much the Cavaliers Heads have altered from those Past Cavaliers ,how much Smaller they have become,is this linked to Cavalier SM Problem since the SM Researchers have said that the Minuterizing of Cavaliers is involved with their SM Problem.

If I could just mention ,that yes, a Good number of Cavalier Breeders are to blame for the MVD Problem that afflicts the Cavalier Breed to-day, I have said before ,that Dr P.Darke ,the CKCS CLUB'S Cardiologist ,in 1983 warned the Cavalier Breeders about the the Wide-Spread MVD Problem in the Cavalier Breed after taking Heart Surveys at Cavalier Shows, and as a result of his findings ,the CKCS CLUB issued Breeding Guidelines for the MVD Problem in 1987.

As we are all were aware , these Breeding Guidelines are still being ignored ,that in the PDE TV Program,mention was made, that every one of the Top Stud Dogs ,at the time of the Program, had been used Under AGE and every one,being used out -side of the Breeding Guidelines .

I have said before ,when the Blenheim Show was first mentioned, it was said this was to improve the Image Of Cavaliers.

I wonder if this was to try and convince the Prospective Cavalier Buying Public, that the Cavalier Breed is not Battling with Two Huge Health Problems ,MVD and SM.

Yes, have a good day at the Blenheim Show,but I hope mention will be made of the Cavaliers over the Years who never had the chance to live to a Normal Old Age because of those Two Diseases, and the Many Cavaliers who are still suffering from them.

Bet

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CAVALIERS OF THE PAST

May I mention that I am more than ever convinced after reading a Post on another Cavalier Forum that the Cavalier Show at Blenheim is just an excuse to convince the Prospective Cavalier Buying Public, that there are no Health Probles Afflicting our Cavaliers.

I and many other Cavalier Owners have had so many Tears throughout the years,because of the Ill Health of our Cherished Cavaliers,yes they were Part of our Lives as the Post Mentioned , but at what a Cost.

Bet

Some people may choose to regard next Saturday as a PR exercise for Cavaliers, but I think it has a two-fold purpose: for many years the regional clubs took it in turns to put on an Amice Pitt Rally - a fun day for Cavaliers and their owners; it stopped a few years ago, and I have met many people who look back on the Rallies with affection, and the Blenheim Saturday is an attempt to recreate these events. And Cavaliers have an extra set of Challenge Certificates - hence the breed show on Sunday, but I think some people in the Cavalier Club have finally realised that there is a great gulf fixed between show people and pet people at a time when good breeders and responsible pet owners need to be working together on the Cavalier's problems. So Saturday is also an effort to bring the two sides together on, so to speak, neutral ground.

Anyway, I think it's worth four bus journeys each way to be part of it on Saturday!! And no, Bet, I'm not likely to forget today's problems, as I walk into Blenheim Park with my ruby with SM and a heart murmur, and my young Blenheim with a Grade 3 murmur and a deprived childhood on a puppy farm. (I've always wanted to take a Blenheim to Blenheim!)

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Kate H said:

Some people may choose to regard next Saturday as a PR exercise for Cavaliers, but I think it has a two-fold purpose: for many years the regional clubs took it in turns to put on an Amice Pitt Rally - a fun day for Cavaliers and their owners; it stopped a few years ago, and I have met many people who look back on the Rallies with affection, and the Blenheim Saturday is an attempt to recreate these events. And Cavaliers have an extra set of Challenge Certificates - hence the breed show on Sunday, but I think some people in the Cavalier Club have finally realised that there is a great gulf fixed between show people and pet people at a time when good breeders and responsible pet owners need to be working together on the Cavalier's problems. So Saturday is also an effort to bring the two sides together on, so to speak, neutral ground.

Anyway, I think it's worth four bus journeys each way to be part of it on Saturday!! And no, Bet, I'm not likely to forget today's problems, as I walk into Blenheim Park with my ruby with SM and a heart murmur, and my young Blenheim with a Grade 3 murmur and a deprived childhood on a puppy farm. (I've always wanted to take a Blenheim to Blenheim!)

Kate, Oliver and Aled

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CAVALIERS OF THE PAST.

I am glad I have brought this to the Fore about the Blenheim Cavalier Show being a PR Exercise,if the Comment had not been used on another Cavalier Forum about the Show being used to Improve the Cavalier Image, I would not have thought any-thing about it, but because this Phrase was used and because of the Ill Feeling that is in the Cavalier World here in Britain to-day with some Cavalier Breeders trying to Cover Up the Health Problems that abound in the Cavalier Breed to-day by not helping the Researchers trying to find the answers to them, then I firmly
believe that this is what the Blenheim Show is being used for.

In other words, to Gull the Public into believing That All is Well in the Cavalier Breed , when that is not the Truth , because of the SM Problem ,some Cavaliers are going around with Screws in their Heads.

Bet

Bet said:

CAVALIERS OF THE PAST.

I am glad I have brought this to the Fore about the Blenheim Cavalier Show being a PR Exercise,if the Comment had not been used on another Cavalier Forum about the Show being used to Improve the Cavalier Image, I would not have thought any-thing about it, but because this Phrase was used and because of the Ill Feeling that is in the Cavalier World here in Britain to-day with some Cavalier Breeders trying to Cover Up the Health Problems that abound in the Cavalier Breed to-day by not helping the Researchers trying to find the answers to them, then I firmly
believe that this is what the Blenheim Show is being used for.

In other words, to Gull the Public into believing That All is Well in the Cavalier Breed , when that is not the Truth , because of the SM Problem ,some Cavaliers are going around with Screws in their Heads.

Bet

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CAVALIERS OF THE PAST

I am glad that this can link in with the Heading Cavaliers of the Past.

On another Cavalier Forum ,it is mentioned that the First Cavalier Championship Show was held almost 64 years ago, when Belinda of Saxham won the Challenge Certificate,

Unfortunately Belinda Of Saxham died at only 8 years of age from Heart Trouble.

This shows how far back in the History of the Cavalier Breed the Heart Problem has been affecting our Cavaliers.At least from the 1940's.

Mention was also made in the same Post about working decisively to Breed Healthy Dogs for the Future.

I do hope that this will mean not Breeding from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age ,and the Grand-parents being Checked for both SM and MVD at 5 years of age.

Finally, could I close by saying ,that the Blenheim Show is to Celebrate the Wonderful Cavalier Breed, as is being claimed by some.our

What is so wonderful about the Cavalier Breed ,when the MVD and SM Health Problems are rife in our Cherished Cavaliers.

Bet

Human beings, who by and large are not inbred or even line bred, and at least in the UK are a mongrel mixture of breeds, die prematurely of heart attacks, strokes and cancers, many of which are hereditary; they suffer from epilepsy, SM, muscular dystrophy (hereditary), multiple sclerosis, immune diseases, haemophilia (hereditary), mental health problems, etc, etc. Yet most human beings are wonderful, and the human body generally does a great job. Our Cavaliers ARE wonderful - get two Cavalier owners together and they will start telling each other how wonderful their dogs are. And even when we have coped with MVD and SM, we still buy another one because, for us, there is no other breed quite like them.

If Belinda of Saxham, so far back, had MVD (though there are a lot of other heart diseases that dogs can die of), perhaps she inherited it from the King Charles Spaniels who were the forebears of Cavaliers, and it was not the fault of the early Cavalier breeders at all. Charlies, with their domed heads and flat faces, are just as much a 'designer' breed as Cavaliers, and they have their own disease problems - but not so obvious because there are far fewer of them. Blaming breeders about whom you know little and never met is rather like a human being blaming their cancer on a great-great-great-great grandfather who might have introduced the cancer gene into the family. We just don't know, and it's a waste of time trying to find a culprit. So please save your energy to attack the modern breeders who refuse to learn from the past - you do a great job there, Bet, for which we all admire you!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

:lol: Well put again Kate.

Let's all try through thoughtful puppy buying, pressure on breed clubs and kennel clubs, fundraising and strong support for research and breeders who do use the testing tools that are there, to focus on the breed's present and a healthier future. Today's breeders have the chance to give a legacy of greater health to future generations of the breed and future breeders -- but this will involve tough decisions, personal sacrifice and cost, and doing the right thing.

At the same time, Griffon breeder Lee Pieterse, who has really been outstanding in raising awareness of this condition in her own breed, has already shown that careful breeding using the best available dogs can within only a couple of generations, start to put a line back on a healthy track and breed away from SM. So there are near term results for health-focused breeders too -- it isn't all about distant goals with no immediate benefit to the breeders of today.

Likewise: supporting the health of this breed for the *puppy buyer* -- you and me -- ALSO means some personal and financial cost. We need to take the time to properly check out a breeder, ask for the test results, educate ourselves so we know what we are asking for and seeing and why to ask, and we will undoubtedly pay more for a puppy from a dedicated, health-testing breeder. We will pay for quality. But we are also paying not just for the puppy but also the future of the breed by supporting these caring, focused breeders. They will stop breeding, and some may give up on taking a more health-focused approach, if pet buyers do not understand they need to pay for the quality they want now and into the future. When a puppy buyer goes for the cheap unhealth-tested line -- we condemn the breed further. Simple as that. We the buyers have *just as much responsibility* towards health by supporting the good breeders. I cannot stress this enough.

Kate H said:

Human beings, who by and large are not inbred or even line bred, and at least in the UK are a mongrel mixture of breeds, die prematurely of heart attacks, strokes and cancers, many of which are hereditary; they suffer from epilepsy, SM, muscular dystrophy (hereditary), multiple sclerosis, immune diseases, haemophilia (hereditary), mental health problems, etc, etc. Yet most human beings are wonderful, and the human body generally does a great job. Our Cavaliers ARE wonderful - get two Cavalier owners together and they will start telling each other how wonderful their dogs are. And even when we have coped with MVD and SM, we still buy another one because, for us, there is no other breed quite like them.

If Belinda of Saxham, so far back, had MVD (though there are a lot of other heart diseases that dogs can die of), perhaps she inherited it from the King Charles Spaniels who were the forebears of Cavaliers, and it was not the fault of the early Cavalier breeders at all. Charlies, with their domed heads and flat faces, are just as much a 'designer' breed as Cavaliers, and they have their own disease problems - but not so obvious because there are far fewer of them. Blaming breeders about whom you know little and never met is rather like a human being blaming their cancer on a great-great-great-great grandfather who might have introduced the cancer gene into the family. We just don't know, and it's a waste of time trying to find a culprit. So please save your energy to attack the modern breeders who refuse to learn from the past - you do a great job there, Bet, for which we all admire you!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

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CAVALIERS OF THE PAST.

Kate ,

I don't think I have expressed my-self very well.

I am in no way blaming Belinda of Saxham for the Heart Trouble that afflicts our Cavaliers, it was Katie Elred her -self who owned Belinda who told me about Belinda of Saxham.

What I did'nt make clear is how the Genes for Heart Trouble were in the Cavalier Breed since at least the 1940's, and in the 1950's Cavaliers were being used at Stud who were suffering from Heart Trouble,

I know of those Cavaliers ,and have passed all this information onto the MVD Researchers when I was wondering if because of the Heart Problem being known about at that time ,those Faulty Genes could have come down through the Cavalier Generations, and maybe there are now many Cavalier Carriers around to-day with those Genes.

The Answer I got back from Two different Sources was ,yes this is a Possibility.

And yes ,sad to say some of the Cavalier Breeders in the early days did know about their Cavaliers Heart problems ,and like some of to-days' Cavalier Breeders continued to use them at Stud.

No ,I have never met with many of those Cavalier Breeders ,but when I was collecting the Ages of their Long Lived Cavaliers ,I spoke to them on the Phone.

Whether it was because of my Scots ' Accent ,but they gave me this Information,which I passed onto the Heart Researchers.

Bet