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Blenheim Palace Show

Blenheim palace show

Karlin said:
If breed club members want their pleas about puppy farms not to sound just like a hollow spin exercise to deflect attention from the serious health issues in the breed, then they absolutely cannot have one set of standards for welfare, cruelty, neglect, abuse and the evils of puppy farming for everyone else, then another standard when it applies to 'their own'. To re-elevate someone who was convicted in a public court of 83 -- 83!!! -- counts of cruelty -- on the basis that well, she really does like dogs and it was all a misunderstanding and the person was just overwhelmed... just beggars belief.

This was not someone caring for say, rescue dogs who might accidently end up suddenly inundated with too many to manage, but someone *breeding and selling these dogs* over time. One does not end up with 83 dogs, much less 83 neglected dogs, simply because a family member is ill and you forget to look after them. It takes a lot of time to accumulate that number. Few show breeders would ever have such numbers, and you'd need a large hygienic kennel to keep so many. Not stacks of filthy plastic dog crates. This was large scale neglect which is why 83 separate counts were brought against this woman and why 83 counts were upheld. By contrast the notorious Michael Vick faced nothing like as many counts of cruelty.

It is truly an indictment of the legal system though if judges only think this level of neglect warrants just banning someone from owning a dog for two years and a tiny fine. Consider what the taxpayer had to pay to cover the costs of rescuing 83 dogs. I know what the cost is for ONE dog -- on a very conservative estimate I would guess the ultimate cost was close to if not more likely well over £10,000. :shock:

Curious that it was our old friend, the Kennel Club's Caroline Kisco, who also defended her judging at Crufts only two weeks before her conviction on the basis that she hadn't yet been proven guilty. Had the person been a teacher or carer charged on 83 counts of cruelty, they would have at least been suspended from duty til after the outcome. Astonishing that the Kennel Club defended having such a person judging when they knew the trial involved 83 counts of cruelty to dogs!! But how much has that whole 'protect our own and blame the outsiders' system changed if this woman is back being rolled out as a judge and given prominent recognition at the Blenheim show? What does that say about any commitment to the dogs as opposed to the people in the show world who are not just quietly supported but publicly re-elevated despite, let me say it again, conviction on 83 separate counts of cruelty to the very breeds they judge. Surely the breed club and decent breeders must draw a line somewhere -- and the world can only judge it immoral not to draw it at a point that stops such a person from ever judging the breed she was convicted of *abusing*!!

I am glad that Blenheim clearly provided a wonderful opportunity to cherish and celebrate this breed -- but it has also provided yet another appalling own goal for the club, reminding that the KC and breed clubs clearly do not even have their house in order and lack any credibility to lecture about puppy farmers when they give not just safe harbour to such people but stick them back up in the show ring. It is really beyond shocking.
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BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW

As a result of the Cavalier Blenheim Palace Show, never again will some in the Cavalier World be able to blame the Puppy Farmers for all the that is wrong in the Cavalier Breed with their Health Problems.

Never again will some Cavalier Breeders be able to use the Excuse ,OH, I won't be an Accredited Breeder because of the Bad Name the Puppy Farmers ,who are Accredited Breeders give to this Scheme ,when a Top Cavalier Breeder and Judge has been charged with Cruelty in a Public Court to the Animals in her Possession.

Has it just been the case that for many years Lip Service has been paid to the Public about the SM and MVD Problems in our Cavalier Breed,but because of the Blenheim Palace Show at the Week-End ,the Cavalier buying Public and Cavalier Owners have now been made so aware of the Huge Cavalier Problems of SM and MVD affecting Cavaliers because of the Publicity that was given at Blenheim Palace to the Health Problems in Cavaliers.

SO, let's give a Big Thank You to the Orginizers of the Blenheim Palace Show,for making it possible that all Cavalier Lovers are now so aware of the Health Problems facing our Lovely Cavalier Breed,and what is needing to be being done to give the Cavaliers the chance of a Future

It sure was a great PR Exercise to be able to get this Information across about the Serious Health Problems in the Cavalier Breed to all who Love Cavaliers.

Bet
 
Bet, I think the show was a great pleasure for the majority of people attending, both breeders and pet owners, who got a chance to participate in some enjoyable activities in a very beautiful place. Thanks to some, there was also a nice range of information on research initiatives and health issues that all who care about cavaliers should be working together on, and a health fundrasier. (y) All those things are positives.

I do think however that post the event, and thanks to one person's unwitting photograph, a deep ethical chasm within the clubs and KC has again been highlighted. This woman is a moral liability to the club that far from trying to hide away, it is ready to flaunt as a prize member. The club has reinstated her as a member and she is back in a career of judging a breed she is convicted of having abused. You just could not make this stuff up!

If anyone gets one more reply from anyone in the Cavalier Club or KC that those who campaign for health need to focus on puppy farmers, just say two words back: this judge's name. If the puppy farming issue is about dogs kept in poor health in dirt, excrement and squalor -- this is what this person was convicted of, on exactly such evidence cited in the trial, 83 times in sequence.

Chairman Ms Greta Foules told the two women: "From the evidence seen on the video shown to the court about the condition of the house it is clear that the unnecessary suffering has occurred over a prolonged period of time."

...

Mr Kevin Campbell, prosecuting for the RSPCA, told the court that conditions at the sisters' home were "atrocious".

He said floors of the house were covered in up to six inches of "compacted dog excrement" and that many of the animals were caged in home-made kennels.

Vet reports later revealed that many of the animals, including, Jack Russells, King Charles spaniels and long-haired daschunds, were suffering from various eye, mouth and ear problems. Many of the dogs had to have their rotten teeth removed by vets.

...

After the hearing RSPCA inspector Garry Palmer said: "These dogs were kept in sickening conditions.

"These women were highly respected Crufts judges and the way they treated these animals left me and fellow officers disgusted and upset.

"The sisters were meant to set an example of how to treat dogs but they did not do that and let an appalling situation escalate."
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Loved reading that Kate!!! You made it sound so real for me all the over here! Great pictures and loved reading the highlights of your trip. The blind boy who enjoyed the silk coats.....so sweet.
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I echo Cathy T.'s thoughts. What a nice event with a mixture of show, performance and pet people and information about the breed, including health issues. It is good for people with diverse perspectives to mingle, get to know each other and celebrate what they have in common. It may go a long way to finding solutions. I would love to have been there!
 
Puppy farmers are not the only breeders that do not care

The Kennel Club & breeders tend to blame all health & temperament problems on puppy farms & BYB, but having taken a quick glance at the latest Breed Record Supplement, I do wonder if KC breeders really do all they should.

The commercial breeders are breeding to make money, no pretence of caring. The health of the dogs do not come into the picture, they are a commercial package that will be bred until they are no longer profitable and then disposed of?

Breed Club committee members say they care about the breed's future, but are shown in the BRS to be using young dogs on young bitches despite the fact they know the SM & MVD health protocols both say the cavaliers should be over 2.5 years.......

15 months is not 2.5 years

18 months is not 2.5 years

Even 24 months is not 2.5 years.

In a year or so these breeders will be complaining that the guidelines do not work.

The number of Club members breeding their bitch two seasons on the trot really surprised me. At one time decent breeders just did not use their bitches in such a way. Surely that is one of the things that we say only puppy farmers and BYB do?

What would be the reason for mating bitches just out of puppyhood or breeding back to back?
The only reason I can see is financial, exactly the same reason that the puppy farmers do these things.

As for temperament..... There have always been cavaliers that were avoided in the ring because they would suddenly lunge at other dogs. Some lines have become known for having a nasty temperament. From what I am hearing this week it would seem the problem is still with us.
 
Well, I have a 7 year old ex-puppy farm bitch sleeping up behind me on the couch right now who is heart clear and has the most wonderful temperament... :) and another poorly bred 5 year old just came into rescue also heart clear and described by the vet as having the most wonderful temperament... Surely people have to make some pretty poor choices in their breeding stock (perhaps caring more about appearance?) to end up with cavaliers of bad temperament! The one consistent thing in the many cavaliers I have taken into rescue over the years, from every type of breeding background, even when they have been misused, abused, and neglected, is their gentleness and sweetness. I think that is the one quality that I would think most worth celebrating in the breed. They are quite extraordinary in that way; so resilient in their friendliness and cheerfulness. :)

If all breeders focused on health along with the other great qualities in the breed, think what an improvement there would be. No one should ever opt for a puppy farm or backyard bred dog... because the dice are more heavily loaded toward indifferent genetics and poorer health, and more to the point, puppy farms and are horrible places of despair for the breeding animals kept there. No caring person should ever bolster those places by paying for puppies from such a background. But breeding in disregard of protocols and testing (in a haphazard way no breeder would apply to choosing the desired cosmetic elements of sire and dam!) is no better than puppy farm breeding.
 
Blenheim palace show

Margaret C said:
The Kennel Club & breeders tend to blame all health & temperament problems on puppy farms & BYB, but having taken a quick glance at the latest Breed Record Supplement, I do wonder if KC breeders really do all they should.

The commercial breeders are breeding to make money, no pretence of caring. The health of the dogs do not come into the picture, they are a commercial package that will be bred until they are no longer profitable and then disposed of?

Breed Club committee members say they care about the breed's future, but are shown in the BRS to be using young dogs on young bitches despite the fact they know the SM & MVD health protocols both say the cavaliers should be over 2.5 years.......

15 months is not 2.5 years

18 months is not 2.5 years

Even 24 months is not 2.5 years.

In a year or so these breeders will be complaining that the guidelines do not work.

The number of Club members breeding their bitch two seasons on the trot really surprised me. At one time decent breeders just did not use their bitches in such a way. Surely that is one of the things that we say only puppy farmers and BYB do?

What would be the reason for mating bitches just out of puppyhood or breeding back to back?
The only reason I can see is financial, exactly the same reason that the puppy farmers do these things.

As for temperament..... There have always been cavaliers that were avoided in the ring because they would suddenly lunge at other dogs. Some lines have become known for having a nasty temperament. From what I am hearing this week it would seem the problem is still with us.
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BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW

I have just read Margaret's Post which included a Mention of the Temperment of some Cavaliers,surely this is against the Standard of the Cavalier Breed

The Standard says,

THAT Cavaliers should be Gay ,Friendly and NON- AGGRESSIVE

This is what has made Cavaliers Perfect for the Cavalier Pet Buying Public, from the Small Children through to the Grannies in the families,that Cavaliers could always be depended upon never to have a Doubtful Temperment.

If some Lines now have Cavaliers who are displaying Temperment Problems, is this another Nail in the Coffin for Cavaliers.

Also could I mention ,when some Cavalier Breeders are Breeding from Under -Age Cavaliers, and their Health Status will not be known about since the CKCS CLUB's Recommended Breeding Guidelines are to wait till the Cavalier 2.5 years of and then Health Tested for SM and MVD ,also the Health Status of the Grand-Parents at 5 years of age, then are those Cavalier Breeders any different from or better than the Puppy Farmers and BYB's that are so often Condemed

I believe that some of those Cavalier Breeders are CKCS Club Members.

I am not saying that the Temperment Problem came to light at the Cavalier Blenheim Palace Show, but if did, what a way to have been Celebrating our Cavalier Breed.

Bet
 
Blenheim palace show.

Bet said:
BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW

I have just read Margaret's Post which included a Mention of the Temperment of some Cavaliers,surely this is against the Standard of the Cavalier Breed

The Standard says,

THAT Cavaliers should be Gay ,Friendly and NON- AGGRESSIVE

This is what has made Cavaliers Perfect for the Cavalier Pet Buying Public, from the Small Children through to the Grannies in the families,that Cavaliers could always be depended upon never to have a Doubtful Temperment.

If some Lines now have Cavaliers who are displaying Temperment Problems, is this another Nail in the Coffin for Cavaliers.

Also could I mention ,when some Cavalier Breeders are Breeding from Under -Age Cavaliers, and their Health Status will not be known about since the CKCS CLUB's Recommended Breeding Guidelines are to wait till the Cavalier 2.5 years of and then Health Tested for SM and MVD ,also the Health Status of the Grand-Parents at 5 years of age, then are those Cavalier Breeders any different from or better than the Puppy Farmers and BYB's that are so often Condemed

I believe that some of those Cavalier Breeders are CKCS Club Members.

I am not saying that the Temperment Problem came to light at the Cavalier Blenheim Palace Show, but if did, what a way to have been Celebrating our Cavalier Breed.

Bet
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BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW

Since I was sent a Private E-Mail yesterday from an Orginiser of the Blenheim Palace Show ,I think I can mention it on this Thread.

I was Accused of mentioning about the Cavalier Heads being Smaller than they were years ago and how Wrong I am in saying this.I wonder why I am wrong in saying this, is this Type of Cavalier Head now where the Money is to be being made for a number of Cavalier Breeders.!!!

Hopefully some Folk who saw the Photos of the Cavaliers of Days Gone By will have seen the Difference in the Cavaliers' Heads, but I do hope this subject will be Discussed at the Two Forth-Coming Cavalier Seminers.

What the problem about SM in our Cavalier Breed is, which Cavaliers have the SM Gene/Genes , I will link this also to the Cavaliers' MVD Problem

At the moment ,all that can done to help those Two Health Problems in Cavaliers ,is for Cavalier Breeders ,not just the few who are caring enough about those Problems in our Cavalier Breed,to take notice of the Recommendations of the CKCS CLUB'S Breeding Guidelines to try and stop the early Onset of both those Two Diseases.

The Finding of the SM and MVD Genes is the only way the Cavalier Breed can be Given a Future,the Cavalier Breeders can play their part by Heeding the Recommended Breed Guidelines, the Cavalier Buying Public by asking the necessary Questions from Cavalier Breeders, are they Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock and giving the Prospective Cavalier Buyer a Certificate to Prove that this is being done, and finding out from the Cavalier Breeder if the Recommended Breeding Guidelines are being followed.

The Bottom Line is though for the Cavaliers to Survive will come from the Researchers, it is the Researchers who will get the Answers ,and tell the Cavalier Breeders the Cavaliers who have those Genes for SM and MVD and the Cavaliers who are the Carriers.

The Breeding of Cavaliers is no Longer a Cottage Industry. I maybe wrong with this Figure, but I believe a Cavalier can fetch upto £2,000,and Stud Fees at least £ 6,00

I would think that this could be called a Commercial Business .

Is this the Attraction of the Show Scene now-a-days.

Bet
 
Blenheim palace show

Bet said:
BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW

Since I was sent a Private E-Mail yesterday from an Orginiser of the Blenheim Palace Show ,I think I can mention it on this Thread.

I was Accused of mentioning about the Cavalier Heads being Smaller than they were years ago and how Wrong I am in saying this.I wonder why I am wrong in saying this, is this Type of Cavalier Head now where the Money is to be being made for a number of Cavalier Breeders.!!!

Hopefully some Folk who saw the Photos of the Cavaliers of Days Gone By will have seen the Difference in the Cavaliers' Heads, but I do hope this subject will be Discussed at the Two Forth-Coming Cavalier Seminers.

What the problem about SM in our Cavalier Breed is, which Cavaliers have the SM Gene/Genes , I will link this also to the Cavaliers' MVD Problem

At the moment ,all that can done to help those Two Health Problems in Cavaliers ,is for Cavalier Breeders ,not just the few who are caring enough about those Problems in our Cavalier Breed,to take notice of the Recommendations of the CKCS CLUB'S Breeding Guidelines to try and stop the early Onset of both those Two Diseases.

The Finding of the SM and MVD Genes is the only way the Cavalier Breed can be Given a Future,the Cavalier Breeders can play their part by Heeding the Recommended Breed Guidelines, the Cavalier Buying Public by asking the necessary Questions from Cavalier Breeders, are they Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock and giving the Prospective Cavalier Buyer a Certificate to Prove that this is being done, and finding out from the Cavalier Breeder if the Recommended Breeding Guidelines are being followed.

The Bottom Line is though for the Cavaliers to Survive will come from the Researchers, it is the Researchers who will get the Answers ,and tell the Cavalier Breeders the Cavaliers who have those Genes for SM and MVD and the Cavaliers who are the Carriers.

The Breeding of Cavaliers is no Longer a Cottage Industry. I maybe wrong with this Figure, but I believe a Cavalier can fetch upto £2,000,and Stud Fees at least £ 6,00

I would think that this could be called a Commercial Business .

Is this the Attraction of the Show Scene now-a-days.

Bet
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BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW

I have just read the OUR DOGS BLENHEIM PALACE Cavalier Special Supplement

What I noticed first of all was the mention of CM/SM in Cavaliers ,this is Charactized by a Mismatch in Size between the Brain too Big and the Skull too Small.

At this moment the Gene/Genes for this Condition in Cavaliers has yet to be found,this is where the Money from RUPERT's FUND is of such a Benefit to the SM Researchers.

Hopefully at the Two Forth -Coming Cavalier Seminars ,more Information will be available about this Research.

I know that some Cavalier Breeders who are still in Denial about the SM and MVD Problems Afflicting our Cavaliers being Big Health Problems for Cavaliers,still are Insisting that, OK ,Health Tests can be being done on Cavaliers To-Day and the Cavalier has no Sign of those Diseases, but to- morrow the Problem can be there ,so can Cancer in
Humans, so their Excuse is why bother Health Tests.

Until many Cavalier Breeders understand , not all Cavalier Breeders , that the hope at the Moment for the Breed ,is to to delay the Early On-Set of both SM and MVD ,then the Cavaliers just do not have a Future.

I do hope that many of the Cavalier Breeders who made an Appearance at the Blenheim Palace Show, will also be supporting the Two Seminars, if Not I am sure the Question will be being asked ,Why Not.

Also once the Formal BVA/KC Schemes for MVD and CM/SM are introduced shortly ,which will Formalize the Current CKCS CLUB'S Administered Heart Scheme and Standarize the Diverse MRI Scanning Procedures which have been in use

Formal Testing Procedures could then be Applied to the Kennel Club's Accredited Breeders Scheme.

It is to be hoped that some Cavalier Breeders won't use the Excuse that they have used so often in the Past , that they won't be supporting the ABS when Cavalier Puppy Farmers are Members of the Scheme.

That Excuse Won't Wash Any-more after what has just Happened at the Blenheim Palace Show last Week-End with the presence of a Cavalier Breeder and Judge who was Convicted of 83 cases of Dogs in her care.

Bet
 
Blenheim palace show

Bet said:
BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW

I have just read the OUR DOGS BLENHEIM PALACE Cavalier Special Supplement

What I noticed first of all was the mention of CM/SM in Cavaliers ,this is Charactized by a Mismatch in Size between the Brain too Big and the Skull too Small.

At this moment the Gene/Genes for this Condition in Cavaliers has yet to be found,this is where the Money from RUPERT's FUND is of such a Benefit to the SM Researchers.

Hopefully at the Two Forth -Coming Cavalier Seminars ,more Information will be available about this Research.

I know that some Cavalier Breeders who are still in Denial about the SM and MVD Problems Afflicting our Cavaliers being Big Health Problems for Cavaliers,still are Insisting that, OK ,Health Tests can be being done on Cavaliers To-Day and the Cavalier has no Sign of those Diseases, but to- morrow the Problem can be there ,so can Cancer in
Humans, so their Excuse is why bother Health Tests.

Until many Cavalier Breeders understand , not all Cavalier Breeders , that the hope at the Moment for the Breed ,is to to delay the Early On-Set of both SM and MVD ,then the Cavaliers just do not have a Future.

I do hope that many of the Cavalier Breeders who made an Appearance at the Blenheim Palace Show, will also be supporting the Two Seminars, if Not I am sure the Question will be being asked ,Why Not.

Also once the Formal BVA/KC Schemes for MVD and CM/SM are introduced shortly ,which will Formalize the Current CKCS CLUB'S Administered Heart Scheme and Standarize the Diverse MRI Scanning Procedures which have been in use

Formal Testing Procedures could then be Applied to the Kennel Club's Accredited Breeders Scheme.

It is to be hoped that some Cavalier Breeders won't use the Excuse that they have used so often in the Past , that they won't be supporting the ABS when Cavalier Puppy Farmers are Members of the Scheme.

That Excuse Won't Wash Any-more after what has just Happened at the Blenheim Palace Show last Week-End with the presence of a Cavalier Breeder and Judge who was Convicted of 83 cases of Dogs in her care.

Bet
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BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW

Could I could I go back to the OUR DOGS Cavalier Supplement.

OH DEARIE ME,

I for sure have Ruffled a Few Cavalier Breeders' Feathers for Daring to say that so many of the Cavaliers' Heads of to-day are Smaller than they in the 50's -60's -and even the 70's ,if any-body has the Cavalier Supplement, just look at the Cavaliers' on the back of it, there are Photos of the VAIRIRE and Pargeter Cavaliers ,they have a Larger type of Head than what is seen to -day

Now I don't know and NO Cavalier Breeder will know as to whether the Cavalier Heads being Smaller now can be involved with the Cavaliers' SM Problem, all that is known ,is that there is a Mix Match between the Cavalier Brains being Larger and their Skulls being Smaller.

Hope-fully all this will be being discussed at the 2 Forth-Coming Seminars.

Could I include this Comment with this Post,on another Cavalier Forum there is mention about

Blenheim Palace Poppet , ,she was born I think in 1926 and all her Ancestors were either King Charles Spaniels or Toy Spaniels

Kobba Of Korunda was also mentioned he was born in 1928 and has the same type of Ancestors in his Background.

Bet
 
Blenheim palace show

Bet said:
BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW

Could I could I go back to the OUR DOGS Cavalier Supplement.

OH DEARIE ME,

I for sure have Ruffled a Few Cavalier Breeders' Feathers for Daring to say that so many of the Cavaliers' Heads of to-day are Smaller than they in the 50's -60's -and even the 70's ,if any-body has the Cavalier Supplement, just look at the Cavaliers' on the back of it, there are Photos of the VAIRIRE and Pargeter Cavaliers ,they have a Larger type of Head than what is seen to -day

Now I don't know and NO Cavalier Breeder will know as to whether the Cavalier Heads being Smaller now can be involved with the Cavaliers' SM Problem, all that is known ,is that there is a Mix Match between the Cavalier Brains being Larger and their Skulls being Smaller.

Hope-fully all this will be being discussed at the 2 Forth-Coming Seminars.

Could I include this Comment with this Post,on another Cavalier Forum there is mention about

Blenheim Palace Poppet , ,she was born I think in 1926 and all her Ancestors were either King Charles Spaniels or Toy Spaniels

Kobba Of Korunda was also mentioned he was born in 1928 and has the same type of Ancestors in his Background.

Bet
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BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW

SILLY ,SILLY ME!!!

What I was trying to explain by Cavaliers' Heads being Smaller,was that those 2 Dogs Mentioned on the Other Cavalier Forum saying that Heads were no different
than Cavaliers' Heads to-day , this is what I am mentioning , that many of to-days' Cavaliers' Heads are like the Head of Kobba Of Korunda ,but it's what happened in the Intervening Years between the 1930's and To-days' Heads , how
they were altered

If I could also be allowed to mention ,I was accused on the other Forum of not being at the Blenheim Palace Show and making comments about the Cavalier Gallery.

All I can say about this, a Number of Years ago Mr G JUPP, the Husband of the Previous CKCS Chairman and my -self
were involved in exactly the same thing as was seen at Blenheim Palace, there were Photos ,and the 5 Generation Pedigrees that I had worked out , even to the Long Lived Ages that I had found out about those Cavaliers.

This was for a Cavalier Championship Show , maybe some on this List will remember it.

In fact I am looking at a Photo of it which was Displayed Round the Hall at the Show.

Bet.
 
Bet said:
... I for sure have Ruffled a Few Cavalier Breeders' Feathers for Daring to say that so many of the Cavaliers' Heads of to-day are Smaller than they in the 50's -60's -and even the 70's ...
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Bet, you haven't ruffled my feathers, because I have none, but I don't agree with you about today's heads being smaller than those earlier decades. Although I cannot speak with eyes-on knowledge about the 1950s, I can with the 1960s and since. We've had Cavaliers from all of those decades, and because of our love for the breed, we've been to many CKCS shows in the US -- Norhteast, Midwest, and Southeast -- and I have not seen what you are asserting about any downsizing of head size over those years.

One oddity I just realized is a statue of two Cavaliers which we have had in our family for many years. It is a circa 1930 statue -- actually two identical bookend statues -- and it clearly shows that one of the two dogs is scratching its ear. I thought it odd that a sculptor would choose that pose to memorialize the breed. But perhaps an artist unfamiliar with the breed would try to capture the dog doing what it does a lot of.
 
Blenheim palace show

RodRussell said:
Bet, you haven't ruffled my feathers, because I have none, but I don't agree with you about today's heads being smaller than those earlier decades. Although I cannot speak with eyes-on knowledge about the 1950s, I can with the 1960s and since. We've had Cavaliers from all of those decades, and because of our love for the breed, we've been to many CKCS shows in the US -- Norhteast, Midwest, and Southeast -- and I have not seen what you are asserting about any downsizing of head size over those years.

One oddity I just realized is a statue of two Cavaliers which we have had in our family for many years. It is a circa 1930 statue -- actually two identical bookend statues -- and it clearly shows that one of the two dogs is scratching its ear. I thought it odd that a sculptor would choose that pose to memorialize the breed. But perhaps an artist unfamiliar with the breed would try to capture the dog doing what it does a lot of.
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BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW

ROD,

I just cannot comment on the Cavaliers in America, but here in Britain, and it just not me saying this , others are mentioning this as well, that the Heads of Cavaliers are Smaller than they were years ago.

Hopefully this will all be being discussed at the 2 Cavalier Seminars which will be taking place Shortly.

As I said in a Previous Post, there seems to be Some Cavalier Breeders who do not want to own up to this fact, is this really what all this is about,,because there is I believe a Lot of Money to be being made ,especially from Over -Seas ,from the Type of Head many Cavaliers have now-a-days.

Why was it said in the OUR DOGS SUPPLEMENT for the Blenheim Palace Cavalier Show, that there is a Mix Match in the Cavaliers, their Brains are too Large and their Heads too Small.

It's no use arguing about this, some Cavalier Breeders are saying that yes the Cavaliers' Heads to-day are like what they were when the Breed orginated, ,so the Questioned must be asked , if the Cavaliers have a Mix Match Type of Skull to-day , did those Early Cavaliers also have a Mix Match Type of Skull ,so has SM always been in the Cavalier Breed.

This Mix Match in the Size of the Cavaliers' Brain being too Big and their Skull too Small ,blocks up the Opening from the Skull into the Spinal Cord and Alters the Flow of Cerebrospinal Fluid .

As a Result Fluid -Filled Cavaties develope within the Spinal Cord called a Syrinx ,with the Condition being called SYRINGOMYELIA.

Hopefully because of the Health Information that was given out at the Blenheim Palace Show, many, many Cavalier Owners will have been aware about this Insidious Disease SM ,and will now Realize that if the Cavalier Breeders who do not MRI Scan their Cavalier Breeding Stock, the Cavaliers just will not have a Future.

I do think that this was the Best PR Result to have come from the Blenheim Palace Show,that it has been brought home to Cavalier Owners the Serious Plight the Cavalier Breed is in because of the MVD and SM Health Problems Afflicting Cavaliers.


Instead of all this Bickering from Some Cavalier Breeders.

They have TWO CHOICES,

THEY CAN EITHER BE PART OF THE CAVALIERS'S HEALTH PROBLEM or PART OF THE SOLUTION to Giving Our Cavaliers the Chance of HEALTHIER ,LONGER LIVES.!!

Bet
 
Hmmm, I can't imagine any Cavalier breeder breeding for smaller heads. A bigger, plusher head is more sought after than a small head.
 
Blenheim palace show

Holly said:
Hmmm, I can't imagine any Cavalier breeder breeding for smaller heads. A bigger, plusher head is more sought after than a small head.
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BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW

All I know is what I am Quoting from the Internet about the Problem written by SM Cavalier Researchers .

The Miniaturisation Process in Cavaliers went Awry,and unlike other Toy Breeds the BRAIN did not Decrease in Size in Proportion to the SKULL

The Cavalier appears to have a Brain more appropriate for a Bigger Dog.

So my understanding about this information is that, there has been MINIATURISATION happening in the Breeding of Cavaliers.

That's all I know about this, and Miniaturisation means making Smaller.

I have not got a Clue as to whether this is involved with the Cavalier Breed's SM Problem.

O.K. The Cavaliers' Heads were Smaller maybe in the in the 1930's, but they were not called Cavaliers in those Days,not until 1945 did the Kennel Club Register them separately from the King Charles Spaniels, in a Comment made by Mrs Amice Pitt , the Founder of the Cavalier Breed, she said she wished that this had taken place a few
years later.. I would have been better for the Cavalier Breed , I just don't know what she meant by this Statement.

Now back to the Cavaliers' Heads it has been mentioned in a Cavalier Book,that a Cavalier DOG's Head should be slightly Broader , with a More MASCULINE TONE than the Head of a Cavalier Bitch ,which will be Slightly Smaller ,more Feminine and PRETTY .

Can any-one Honestly say that there is a Difference in many of to-day's Cavaliers betweem the Cavalier Dogs and Cavalier Bitches.

They have this Pretty Look,Dogs and Bitches.

For sure in days gone by the Cavalier Dogs did have a Masculine Look just look at the Photos of Ch. DAYWELL ROGER born 7-10-1945,it must have been some Cavalier Breeders who wanted the Cavalier Dogs to have this Pretty Look,did they think they would sell better to the Cavalier Pet Buying Public.

I cannot understand all the Huffing and Puffing from some Cavalier Breeders when I dare mention about the
Cavaliers' Heads being Smaller than they were years ago, it's not even as if I am connecting the Smaller Heads to the Cavaliers' SM Problem, it's the SM Researchers who will in the fullness of time discover if there is a Link with the Cavaliers' Heads being Smaller and their SM Problem.

Bet
 
Bet said:
All I know is what I am Quoting from the Internet about the Problem written by SM Cavalier Researchers .

The Miniaturisation Process in Cavaliers went Awry,and unlike other Toy Breeds the BRAIN did not Decrease in Size in Proportion to the SKULL

The Cavalier appears to have a Brain more appropriate for a Bigger Dog.

So my understanding about this information is that, there has been MINIATURISATION happening in the Breeding of Cavaliers.

That's all I know about this, and Miniaturisation means making Smaller. ...
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I've read the same information you have, Bet, and I don't interpret it even close to the way you have. I suggest that you parse it very carefully. Definitely, Dr. Rusbridge did not suggest that Cavalier breeders have been trying to breed smaller heads. The theory, as I understand it from what she wrote, is that in the course of evolving the Cavalier, the development of the skull and the brain have not been coordinated, and the brain has kept growing after the skull has stopped. This has nothing to do with whether the size of the Cavalier head is smaller now than in past decades.
 
Blenheim palace show.

RodRussell said:
I've read the same information you have, Bet, and I don't interpret it even close to the way you have. I suggest that you parse it very carefully. Definitely, Dr. Rusbridge did not suggest that Cavalier breeders have been trying to breed smaller heads. The theory, as I understand it from what she wrote, is that in the course of evolving the Cavalier, the development of the skull and the brain have not been coordinated, and the brain has kept growing after the skull has stopped. This has nothing to do with whether the size of the Cavalier head is smaller now than in past decades.
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BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW.


ROD,

I have Posted Exactly what is written ,word for word ,in the Veterinary Neurologist Web Site ,Q and A by Dr Rusbridge.

How -some- ever ,I expect all this will be being discussed at the Forth- Coming Cavalier Seminars.

The Miniaturisation of Cavaliers is certainly mentioned in this Section.

The Word Miniaturisation to me certainly means becoming Smaller.

What is your defination of Miniaturisation.

Bet
 
Bet said:
ROD,

I have Posted Exactly what is written ,word for word ,in the Veterinary Neurologist Web Site ,Q and A by Dr Rusbridge.

How -some- ever ,I expect all this will be being discussed at the Forth- Coming Cavalier Seminars.

The Miniaturisation of Cavaliers is certainly mentioned in this Section.

The Word Miniaturisation to me certainly means becoming Smaller.

What is your defination of Miniaturisation.
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Bet, she is not referring to the miniaturizing of heads!
 
Please, if we're going to have a discussion on head size, could we start a new thread with an appropriate heading? If someone hasn't caught up with the Blenheim Weekend yet, they're going to be a bit puzzled to find themselves in the middle of posts on head size! I'm going to start one with a brief comment, if that's OK?

Thanks,

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
Kate H said:
Please, if we're going to have a discussion on head size, could we start a new thread with an appropriate heading? If someone hasn't caught up with the Blenheim Weekend yet, they're going to be a bit puzzled to find themselves in the middle of posts on head size! I'm going to start one with a brief comment, if that's OK?
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Yes, please!
 
Blenheim palace show

RodRussell said:
Bet, she is not referring to the miniaturizing of heads!
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BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW

ROD,

This my last mention about the BLENHEIM PALACE SHOW ,only to say ,how pleased I was to see such Emphasis put on the Health Problems in our Cavaliers at the Show

Cavalier owners will now have it brought home to them about the Perilous State the Cavalier Breed is in because of SM and MVD and only when buying a Cavalier ,buy from a Cavalier Breeder who Health Tests their Cavalier Breeding Stock and follows the Breeding Guidelines as Recommended by the CKCS CLUB

Finally though ROD, maybe you can tell me why some Cavalier Breeders are so Up in Arms when ever I mention about the Cavaliers' Heads being Smaller than they were years ago,is it a Slur against them, I just can't Fathom this out why it is causing so much Ill-Feeling , what is wrong with say this, ...

Bet
 
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