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Thread: The KC and Radio 4

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    Default The KC and Radio 4

    This show is on now and will be repeated again tonight.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tmkyf
    Tania and The Three Cavaliers!
    Dotty!- A Sweet Little Tri
    Molly - Pretty Tri Dougall - Gorgeous Blenheim

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    Default THE KC and RADIO 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Tania View Post
    This show is on now and will be repeated again tonight.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tmkyf


    THE KC and RADIO 4

    I do so hope that all you who can will have listened or will listen to this Program to-night.

    Carol was Interviewed , and gave such a Heart Rending Mention about our Cavaliers and the SM Problem afflicting Them,about how Bonnie had to be put to sleep at only 5 years of age because of SM, and Rosie who also suffers from this condition.

    Quentin Letts, the Well Known Journalist who was conducting this Program ,asked Carol about the SM Problem, when Carol told him ,that the Cavaliers' Skull is not Big enough for their Brain, his Comment was

    OH MY GOD.

    Carol then went onto say that the only thing that could help the Cavaliers with this Horrible Disease ,was to have Mandatory Health Tests, and not to Register Dogs with a Health Problem ,. Quentin Letts then asked Carol if she had approached the Kennel Club with this request , Carol said she had ,but their answer was no .

    Quentin Letts then asked Caoline Kisko this question ,you will not believe her answer!!!!

    That if a Dog is not Suffering Pain from a Disease by showing showing a Huge amount of Suffering ,then Health Testing will not be considered by the Kennel Club,

    So does this Stupid Answer Mean , that if a Cavalier is only Suffering a wee bit of Pain from SM, then that is OK in the Kennel Club's Eyes!!!

    I would think that many of you with Cavaliers who have SM could inform her about the Suffering that is caused by it.

    Finally could I just say to Carol , Thank You for what you have just said on behalf of our Cavalier Breed for both the Two Serious Problems Afflicting them, SM and MVD.

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    The Kennel Club's stance has been so askew with dog health for so long that Kisko's reply, while shocking, does not surprise -- look at feeble attempts like the accredited breeders programme, which was seen even by many clubs to mainly help puppy farmers get KC 'special' accreditation as it was so totally unpoliced! Slight efforts to tighten the programme have not exactly revolutionised the programme nor its acceptance as any kind of quality kitemark programme for puppies.

    But the attitude of the KC and its feeble bleatings on the subject of canine health remain just appalling. Imagine if, say, the UK government took the same perspective on human suffering. If it were shown that exposure to certain food additives or factory emissions or pollution or being born with a congenital disease only caused a little discomfort or suffering, then the state would allow the factories, food manufacturers etc to do whatever they wish and the health service and insurance companies could refuse to treat patients as they weren't quite suffering enough.

    Imagine the public outcry if it were shown that over half the UK population had a skull that was not the right size for their brain and that a significant portion would go on to suffer excruciating lifelong pain.

    Dogs however are clearly more about short-term income and competitions and suffering doesn't need to count unless it is really obvious. Like, say, pugs with kinked spines due to being bred for cute curly tails, or breeds with high incidences of seizures or cancer, or German Shepherds only being able to walk with a wobbly gait -- but that sloping back is certainly worth a few dogs having to be pts due to severe hip dysplasia at a young age, isn't it?

    To be fair to the Kennel Club, they *themselves* have said they lack the legal ability to police breeders. But this confession, and the evidence from comments from people like Kisko that little would be done even if they did have the capability, and on evidence of comments like she made here, means that outside regulation is the obvious and only answer.

    Good for Carol for making strong points in this programme.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

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    Default KC and radio 4

    Hi all,

    It was a very interesting program. I did not catch the broadcast this morning but listened over lunch on the BBC 4 website via the internet.

    Rachael
    Rachael

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    Default THE KC and RADIO 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    The Kennel Club's stance has been so askew with dog health for so long that Kisko's reply, while shocking, does not surprise -- look at feeble attempts like the accredited breeders programme, which was seen even by many clubs to mainly help puppy farmers get KC 'special' accreditation as it was so totally unpoliced! Slight efforts to tighten the programme have not exactly revolutionised the programme nor its acceptance as any kind of quality kitemark programme for puppies.

    But the attitude of the KC and its feeble bleatings on the subject of canine health remain just appalling. Imagine if, say, the UK government took the same perspective on human suffering. If it were shown that exposure to certain food additives or factory emissions or pollution or being born with a congenital disease only caused a little discomfort or suffering, then the state would allow the factories, food manufacturers etc to do whatever they wish and the health service and insurance companies could refuse to treat patients as they weren't quite suffering enough.

    Imagine the public outcry if it were shown that over half the UK population had a skull that was not the right size for their brain and that a significant portion would go on to suffer excruciating lifelong pain.

    Dogs however are clearly more about short-term income and competitions and suffering doesn't need to count unless it is really obvious. Like, say, pugs with kinked spines due to being bred for cute curly tails, or breeds with high incidences of seizures or cancer, or German Shepherds only being able to walk with a wobbly gait -- but that sloping back is certainly worth a few dogs having to be pts due to severe hip dysplasia at a young age, isn't it?

    To be fair to the Kennel Club, they *themselves* have said they lack the legal ability to police breeders. But this confession, and the evidence from comments from people like Kisko that little would be done even if they did have the capability, and on evidence of comments like she made here, means that outside regulation is the obvious and only answer.

    Good for Carol for making strong points in this programme.

    THE KC and RADIO 4

    Here we go again !!! Some of the Cavalier Breeders who try so Hard to put a Gloss on the Cavalier Breed's Health , Health Troubles, What Health Troubles, why is that, Carol has had 2 Cavaliers ,Bonnie who had to be put to Sleep at 5 years of Age because of SM and Susie ,who ia also suffering from the Condition,why should she have to have such Vicious Remarks Hurled at her .

    Do some Cavalier Breeders not believe that what has been said by the SM Researchers that there is a MIX MATCH between the Cavaliers' Brains and their Skulls, that there have been Veterinary Papers written on this Subject,that Cavalier Brains are too Big for Their Skulls, what is not yet known, is whether the Cavaliers having Smaller Heads than they used to is involved with SM.

    Why is it that some Cavalier Breeders seem to think that they are the only Lovers or Devotees of the Cavalier Breed.

    We other Cavalier Owners can say the same. In fact is it not the Cavalier Pet Owners who are mainly responsible for buying Surplus Cavalier Puppies.

    Surely that gives us a right to expect a fair deal when buying a Cavalier ,to hope that they will have the chance of a Healthy ,Long Life, and not to be like Carol to have been Heart Broken when her 2 Cavaliers developed SM.

    Do some Cavalier Breeders think that SM does not Exist in the Cavalier Breed??

    Are they still in Denial about the Problem?

    What a Great Service Carol has done this morning by what she said, for Broken-Hearted Cavalier Owners who have Cavaliers suffering from this Dreadful Disease.

    No amount of Spin coming from the usual Quarters can Camouflage what was said in this morning's Radio program about the SM Problem and MVD Problems in Cavaliers ,that the Cavalier Buying Public will know that the Cavalier Breed ,is at the Moment a Sick Breed.

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    The thing to remember is the comments are from 'the usual quarters'. Thankfully there are intelligent breeders behind the scenes who care about the actual health of the breed and are actively working to do something. Attacking the messenger is always a sign of the weakness of the argument being made.

    Going on eye-witness reports back from the Blenheim show of some well known dogs attacking other cavaliers -- supposedly (and at least under previous generations of judges) an automatic disqualification on the show circuit -- it would seem some breeders also need to be concerned about temperament and not just health issues.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

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    It was a very good and interesting programme which touched on a lot of topics within the sphere of pedigree dogs and the Kennel Club.
    When Carol was explaining to the interviewer what Syringomyelia was. I managed a little chuckle at his reaction..
    "Oh Crumbs" he helpfully added
    It wouldn't be my first choice of words but I suppose this is the BBC.
    Caroline Kisko didn't comment directly on cavaliers as a breed.
    She replied to the question in general when asked about health testing a dog prior to being shown.Her feeling was that it was down to a judge to exclude or remove dogs with an apparent defect.
    When it came to breeding on,she said it was important not to reduce the genepool while trying trying to move away from health problems within a breed...and provided it's not (the condition) going to produce too much suffering then to breed through it.
    *paraphrasing here.
    However noone asked how much pain is too much pain or to give an example...
    Sins

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    She replied to the question in general when asked about health testing a dog prior to being shown.Her feeling was that it was down to a judge to exclude or remove dogs with an apparent defect.
    Yes, this has been their stance all along. Regarding letting the judges do it -- the KC must surely be aware this ensures the status quo. Anyone involved in showing cavaliers, even the most SM-sceptical, is quite aware of some specific well-discussed cases in which judges are only too happy to award dogs clearly exhibiting signs of SM or widely known to have it -- and where judges reward the same old lines from the same old friends even when there are known to be issues with some of those dogs, too. Asking judges, who are show people themselves and generally well entrenched, to police health is like asking the smoking industry to provide education on smoking-related disease. Except for a brave and exceptional few, they won't do it.

    When it came to breeding on,she said it was important not to reduce the genepool while trying trying to move away from health problems within a breed...and provided it's not (the condition) going to produce too much suffering then to breed through it.
    This attitude must be so frustrating for responsible breeders! Theoretically this is of course true, but the KC surely must know this broken-record response from them is like a get out of jail free card for everything from casual disregard to the worst sort of breeding. More pointedly: it is a bit rich for the KC to worry about reducing the genepool, given that they fully control the avenue to registration for dogs, essential for anyone to show, and do little to nothing to prevent popular sire syndrome that reduces the gene pool more than any other single element (eg they could for example control how many litters a year can be registered to a given sire, or limit the overall number of times any sire can be bred to produce registered litters, or require the COI be included on all pedigrees and educate buyers as to the significance). The logical conclusion of the existing stampede to the same few sires -- which we have already seen in cavaliers -- is for genepools to be shut down into little narrow popular sire channels in which most dogs are descended from the same few or closely related. This approach has already lost so many of the older lines and many of them ones that, for example, statistician David Harwood believes would have been possible rescue points for the breed. Breeders self-limit the gene pool to a horrific extent already. I am told there have been cavalier shows in which close to half the dogs in the show were all directly descended within one or two generations from just a couple of (already related) dogs. How can the KC and clubs allow such dangerous bottlenecks to occur? If they are aware they are happening -- as the clubs at least must be -- why is nothing being done? What of those two dogs go on to develop SM? Then all those people and worse, the breed, are in very deep doodoo -- where are UK cavalier club breeders going to go for genetic diversity? They will end up with COIs of 50% or more in no time.

    We have all seen that suffering is a very fluid concept for some breeders...
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

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    Default THE KC and RADIO 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    The thing to remember is the comments are from 'the usual quarters'. Thankfully there are intelligent breeders behind the scenes who care about the actual health of the breed and are actively working to do something. Attacking the messenger is always a sign of the weakness of the argument being made.

    Going on eye-witness reports back from the Blenheim show of some well known dogs attacking other cavaliers -- supposedly (and at least under previous generations of judges) an automatic disqualification on the show circuit -- it would seem some breeders also need to be concerned about temperament and not just health issues.
    THE KC and RADIO 4

    Just read the above Post, what has been going on at the Blenheim Palace Show, if there have been Eye Witnesses to this happening ,will there be some wishing now that the Show had never taken Place.

    Hopefully this can be sorted out by the CKCS CLUB , and if Bad Temperaments are coming into the Cavalier Breed ,then action has to be taken .

    The Cavalier Breed has always been recognized for their Gentle Nature.

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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