• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

Rosie's Problem - Advice Please

Hi Brian
Fairy Godmother calling.
So sorry to read about poor Rosie. It is awful when they cry in pain, we feel helpless.

I am thinking of you all, let me know if there is anything I can do.

Nanette
 
Basically,if a dog shows symptoms,we should really investigate it fully, in the best interests of the dog and then manage the condition as appropriate.
I say this to so many people,but a diagnosis of SM will not change the way you feel about your dog,they're still the same loving little companions that they always have been.
I know what you mean about the dark thought of SM being there...but fear of the unknown is far worse than dealing with an actual diagnosis,if that makes sense.
Scans,either the low cost ones or the full scan done through your insurance are safe and quick and will give you a definitive answer once and for all.

I would agree with all of this and Brian, I agree that as hard as it may be to consider, you need to be looking a wider picture -- sadly SM figures are extremely high for the breed -- as an upcoming study is about to show. It could be a disk problem but the fact that you are also seeing repeat scooting even after anal glands are confirmed as not being a problem -- a common SM sign as it is a way for the dog to address discomfort in hindquarters, often an area affected by SM -- and feet chewing, ditto -- means you are actually reporting a broad range of typical SM signs -- scooting with no reason, feet chewing, some immobility that comes and goes (very typical), some scratching, definite high back/shoulder area pain (the most common region for syrinx pain).

The symptoms all sound like they could be SM, and the exam and diagnosis all sounds sadly too similar to the endless misdiagnosis by vets. How could a vet evaluate SM based on 'stance'? If only this were a remote possibility!! We could all save a lot of money on MRIs. :) More seriously, this is why the breed ends up suffering for an average of over 18 months for misdiagnosis for every case of SM. Vets are mostly, very ill-informed about the condition and often therefore make some odd guesses about what would likely reveal the condition or not. Stance is simply not one of them.

Many dogs with SM, including extreme syrinxes, show only a single symptom, too, so dogs needn't show more than one -- it is so important for people to understand this. SM is not necessarily a multiple symptom condition. MOST SM dogs actually do not scratch or air scratch, according to LIVS. It is a strange and enigmatic condition.

It is worth getting a basic scan I think, if you can. Better to eliminate a worry if at all possible, or to correctly diagnose and treat a condition, than wrongly diagnose.

Metacam, steroids and almost any painkiller will help SM symptoms too so people really need to be careful if they see a return of symptoms after meds, not to accept 'recurring back pain' as the answer in this breed but to investigate further.

So it's not impossible for Rosie to have a spinal problem that is nothing to do with SM, as well as possible SM - but only scanning will sort that out.

Also true and a good point. :)

The great plus for Chestergates in my eyes is that they don't use anaesthetic, and scanned Oliver with a very minimal dose of sedative

It is perhaps worth noting that actually Chestergates is a bit controversial for NOT using anaesthesia for scans. Many would consider this statistically a riskier and more complications-prone way of putting a dog under. I believe it costs less to sedate rather than give a GA. Some neurologists would not find using a sedative like this good practice. Others feel it is fine. Almost all neurologists I know of will not sedate and prefer GA. I think there's a misconception that sedation is safer but I think if people look at the evidence it actually is somewhat riskier. I have had 6 scans done on my dogs using sedation with no issues, but also have never heard of a complication with GA.

People in the Uk are at advantage in being able to get a low cost scan. The issue though for those finding they have dogs needing treatment is that a low cost scan will not generally include adequate long term advice and care from a neurologist, as they are really just one-off scans for breeding dogs. They are also generally not suitable for surgery. So if there's insurance I would start with a clinical exam and then consider a proper full scan if warranted rather than a low cost scan.

Many of us face these confusions and difficulties and quandaries about what to do. There's a great support group and many experienced friends here for advice and ideas.
 
Hi Brian, I am so sorry to read that Rosie is having problems. I think you are doing the right thing getting her scanned, because only with a scan will you know what you are dealing with. It will either confirm what you are dreading to hear, (and to be honest, it can nearly be a relief knowing what's wrong), or it will rule out SM.

SM is a horrible disease for any animal or person to have.

Fingers crossed for Rosie, hopefully she doesn't have it and it's something simple to treat, but if she does have SM the medication should help her in no time.
You know we are all here for you and your lovely doggies, whatever you decide. :hug:
 
Last edited:
Hi

And thank you all for your kind advice .Rosie this morning ran down the stairs up the stairs and into the garden and out of the garden and back up into the back porch then launched herself at Poppy for a wrestling match .So this morning all seemed normal just like having four toddlers running riot around the house .I am in deep thought about Chestergates and to be honest totally confused ,my first and only priority is the health and welfare of Rosie and everything else a distant second .
 
Glad to hear she's feeling better.
Just try not to let her do too much for a few days:D.
You don't have to make any decision until your referral details actually arrive.
Definitely get one of the Chestergates neurologists to have a look at her anyway.They'll be more clued in to whether it's a simple Musculoskeletal injury or something that they need to investigate.
and then take their recommendation on whether or not a scan is necessary.
Sins
 
Hi Sins

And thank you ,I am now starting to read as much as I can .Do or don't I presume that all Cavaliers have CLM from birth and if so does it then necessarily mean further down the line SM will automatically develop .I certainly do need my hand holding and lots of basic guidance as there seems an awful, awful lot to digest ,so I apologise in advance to the many questions I may ask of our members.
 
When Mindy hurt her back many years back the vet had me keep her quiet for 10 days - you may want to try and discourage the wrestling and jumping if you think Rosie has hurt herself.

As far as sedatives vs. GA - I had a very stern lecture myself when I had a dental surgery and was able to choose either. It was clear which the surgeon preferred and it says a lot for his ability to convince me NEVER to choose a GA if there was an alternative because of the added risk that he was able to convince a wuss like me to have the sedative. I don't know if the same holds true for dogs but I am not at all comfortable when either my kids or my dogs had to be put under a GA and I have heard of tragedies in both humans and pets strictly from GA.
 
Dearest Bri
I do think a clear head is required here so try not to go overboard learning or panicking, we're all here to help in any way possible. We all know you well enough to know you would never ever let Rosie be in any pain without you getting to the vets asap & also you have a good basic knowledge of SM. You not we know your girls best& youre next to such a good place,Chestergates-why not phone them directly & ask their opinion...
Go from there,one step at a time.

I sincerely hope you will not be dealing with SM, however if you are the best care, ,advise& experts are at your disposal,for you & Rosie.However i feel a little insulted on your behalf any suggestion that Rosie would be misdiagnosed for months at a time due to lack of knowledge,whilst that might be the case with a newer member this is you we're talking to! No offence is intended to any here but you would walk to the end of the world if it would be best for your girls

To repeat something you & i often say to each other-what would you tell me to do my friend?
 
However i feel a little insulted on your behalf any suggestion that Rosie would be misdiagnosed for months at a time due to lack of knowledge, No offence is intended to any here but you would walk to the end of the world if it would be best for your girls

Insults were certainly NOT intended. We are giving Brian the benefit of our own Experience and MISTAKES.

My advice still stands, I think Rosie should be Clinically examined by a Neurologist who is experienced in SM/CM (Chestergate sounds perfect) They can then advise.

There has never been any doubt of the love and devotion Brian has for his girls....all we want to do is help!
 
Kindest Brian,

I can't quite figure out the quote thing but what Tania said about your love and devotion to your dogs is true. Something like that. Not only to your dogs but to anyone in this group. You are the most kind operson and I am so sorry you are dealing with problems with Rosie. I know you posted something about trying to understand what it is like going through having a dog with SM just so you could sympathize. I hate that maybe you are now worried about her. I agree with several things people said.

MOST SM dogs actually do not scratch or air scratch, according to LIVS. It is a strange and enigmatic condition.

It is worth getting a basic scan I think, if you can. Better to eliminate a worry if at all possible, or to correctly diagnose and treat a condition, than wrongly diagnose.

I would like to say Ella has not scratched since her surgery. This is true. So it is hard to compare one thing and I think it is scary to think about SM especially knowing what some of us go through. The thing is, if it is, then you can help her better.

Karlin was tough on me when I was scared to have another MRI for Ella. (I am glad) but it is really hard even if it might not be the worse. I learned that it is better to know and rule it out. I know you have decided to do this with many peoples suggestions but I understand why you were hesitant.


Many of us face these confusions and difficulties and quandaries about what to do. There's a great support group and many experienced friends here for advice and ideas

Brian you have been such a support to me personally and I am sure people in the group would agree that you are a possitive special soul. I will be there for you and pray that Rosie will be "rosier" You know you have several friends and you love your "girls" so much.

I will be thinking of you and Rosie and I am sure you will keep us posted.
 
I don't think anyone was trying to insult Brian's intelligence - as Tania has said, we are all just trying to give him the benefit of our experience - this is one of the reasons we are so lucky to have this forum, that we can share and learn so much...I'm sure many of us wish we had had this resource when we were dealing with the same issues many years ago...:(


Brian made it clear that he is not fully informed about SM so it is appropriate to research further - but also to listen to those who sadly are experienced and knowledgeable about the condition.

We all KNOW that Brian would not leave Rosie to suffer - we are trying to help him understand the condition.

It's great that Rosie is feeling better, steroids are the appropriate treatment for a back strain but would also help with SM pain.

Brian, sorry to nag but you really DO need to keep Rosie quiet. If the only way to do that is with cage rest, then that might be what you need to do - just on lead to go outside to toilet. NO jumping, playing with the others etc.


I really do think that a consultation with a neurologist is appropriate - vets are not usually very experienced with SM - and it is certainly not possible to diagnose it or rule it out based on stance and movement - some affected dogs can still have perfect movement for many years.
 
Dearest Bri
However i feel a little insulted on your behalf any suggestion that Rosie would be misdiagnosed for months at a time due to lack of knowledge,whilst that might be the case with a newer member this is you we're talking to! No offence is intended to any here but you would walk to the end of the world if it would be best for your girls

I HAVE walked to the end of the world and back for Dylan especially in the last few weeks and being a 'new' member here does not make me any less knowledgeable about SM than others. I had to fight to get Dylan diagnosed and just do not want to see someone else having to go through the same heartache.
 
Do or don't I presume that all Cavaliers have CLM from birth and if so does it then necessarily mean further down the line SM will automatically develop .

Hi Brian

As I understand it, most Cavaliers have CM, but it is possible to have CM without developing SM; it is however very unusual to have SM without CM (and in that case the SM is usually due to trauma, ie external damage to the spinal cord).

And just to clarify, my remarks about preferring Chestergates because they don't anaesthetize were personal to me and Oliver, really. Oliver had a normal dose of sedative for his first mini-scan - and was still a bit groggy 8 hours later! Obviously for him very small doses of sedative work well, and he can often manage on a mild sedative in situations (such as X-rays for his spondylosis) where the vet would normally use anaesthetic. So I always remind the vet about his sedation sensitivity and am super-cautious about giving him a GA - reserved for life-threatening situations only! At the same time, I do recognise that GA has improved enormously - especially the use of pre-anaesthetic drugs which minimise the amount of anaesthetic needed. So the sedative/GA choice probably isn't a major issue for Rosie - but Chestergates remains convenient and has excellent neurologists!

I would second what someone else has said - while Rosie is on medication for a back problem, try and keep her quiet - crated if necessary. I know it's lovely to see her back to normal, but backs are fragile. When Oliver's spondylosis was diagnosed he was ordered 2 weeks total rest, then very slow build up of exercise - literally starting with 5 minutes twice a day. It took us nearly 2 months to get back to normal length walks, and even then I took him on longer outings in a buggy so that he rested for the boring pavement walking/train journeys and had the fun of running around off-lead. But I think this caution paid off, as a year later his back is fine and his spondylosis seems to cause him no problems.

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
There are variations on GAs too. I was quite distressed at the state of Poppy after her spay at my local vets. She had to be carried and was quite clearly out of it.

After her MRI and a "good quality" (for want of a better expression) GA at Stone Lion with Clare Rusbridge, Poppy walked away as if she had had nothing done, she was fine. Makes me want to go to stone Lion for everything, if only I lived nearer.

Many who have had a dog with SM waited a while wondering if their dog had it. Questioned if they should get the scan done. Then those of us who had to change drugs and, after seeing an improvement, realised their dog had been in pain for a while. I include myself in these scenarios. We can't read the minds of our dogs, things usually creep up on us and we don't put two and two together. There is also an element of denial when we don't want bad news to be true. Dogs do go though some discomfort before the penny drops, that's life I'm afraid. If only they could talk.

Gald you got something sorted so quickly for Rosie. :)
 
Last edited:
There is also an element of denial when we don't want bad news to be true. Dogs do go though some discomfort before the penny drops, that's life I'm afraid. If only they could talk.

Very well put Pauline and so true.
Sins
 
[QUOTE There is also an element of denial when we don't want bad news to be true. Dogs do go though some discomfort before the penny drops, that's life I'm afraid. If only they could talk. :)[/QUOTE]

I don't know but in regards of knowing about SM, I feel like I have been trying to read stuff all the time and I am still confused. It is such a weird thing and I sometimes question myself. Actually I always question myself :p Yesterday Ella was running around, jumping, playing with these two Cavaliers like nothing is wrong. I thought to myself "I know she has SM but it can't be bad. Is it? What if..." All I know is she was having fun and feeling better. I think worrying about our dogs is a common thing we share and I worry about Rosie, Isabelle, Poppy, Dougall, the list goes on. They are our family.

They can't tell you their stomach hurts, or they have a headache, or their leg hurts etc. It is really difficult to figure things out about any health issue going on. You just know that you are the best parent she could ever have. :l*v:
 
Prayers for Rosie

Brian,

So sorry to hear about Rosie, I will pray all is well with her, you have been such a great inspiration to me and comforted me when I was feeling sad about Isabelle. I just wanted to extend my gratitude back, and let you know you and Rosie will be in my thoughts and prayers. I also wanted to share a year or two ago Isabelle had a spell for while were she was licking and having problems in her female area below herself. My doctor put her on Diethylstilbesterol 0.5 mg that I give her every 3 days and once in awhile I use this pads to wipe down around the area Duoxo Chlorhexiderm Pads that I use 1 - 2 times daily as needed. She has been doing fine now. I will have to ask my doctor what it was called the diagnose of what was causing it. I hope all will be well.

Blessings,
Pamela
 
Hello Ladies

I am indebted and overwhelmed by the caring response shown by all of you for my little Rosie it shows to all the loving attentive nature that all our members possess here on CT, and so to all I wish to offer my deepest thanks for your kind comments and advice and if I can offer any help in any way to any member it will be an honour and a privilege for me to assist.:smile:

I still await advice from Chestergates and will post when received .I thank Pamela for her kind words and suggestion to use Duoxo Chlorhexiderm Pads but cannot find the product in the UK so would one think a product called Dermacool would be of help .
http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Dermacool-Spray-50ml/productinfo/DERMACOOL/
 
Brian, I would add to what others have said that there is an overwhelming number of signs that you are listing that would make me get a scan *immediately* -- not wait. If SM is causing these varied and numerous symptoms, she is suffering. By not scanning, she may be left in at the very least, discomfort and pain that comes and goes and may well be in permanent discomfort she tolerates, and what you see when she has had more obvious symptoms are the spikes into more serious pain. I must reiterate that in humans SM is considered one of the most painful and debilitating of health conditions and I strongly feel any caring owner of this breed needs to get a dog scanned or examined by a neurologist if they are seeing significant signs of SM -- which sadly, you have already listed for Rosie -- as it seems to affect well more than 50% of the breed by age 6 or so.

Waiting to see if it might eventually prove to be something else because the vets think so -- when vets are generally misinformed or underinformed on SM -- could be very cruel to Rosie who may meanwhile be tolerating weeks or months more of unnecessary discomfort or serious pain. The only consequence of not scanning and therefore not really knowing whether she has this condition is the possibility that an animal you love is suffering. It is one thing if there are no or maybe just a single symptom that could very likely be something else. But by my count you have listed several of the most common signs that a dog is suffering and in noticeable pain that she tolerates, as most dogs will, as they have little choice if owners do not seek to get answers and then work to alleviate pain. Given so many signs, including some of clear distress and pain, I don't think that anyone who truly loves their dog can hope that by not scanning, it might be something else -- you need a definitive answer to help her in an informed and effective way.

Many members here have been through this uncertainty and many of them have expressed the same perspective. There is also absolutely NO difference in the value of anyone's input here whether a long time or recent member. Indeed a new member may have great insight :) -- a fresh set of eyes looking at an issue often sees more clearly (which is why a second opinion from a vet is often very valuable when a dog has any recurrent problem). It is often easy if you know a dog and are around a dog to dismiss signs that may be very obvious to an outside observer. The perspectives of those who have already walked in the shoes of having a dog with SM, and been through the nightmare of misdiagnosis while watching their dog in pain, are in my book, especially to be valued because such people know exactly how difficult it can be to get a vet to take this problem seriously. These may be long time board members or someone who joined an hour ago. All are equally valued and no less insightful. (y)

Sadly vets thus keep giving owners reasons NOT to help their dogs! This is one of my real frustrations -- the lack of seriousness many vets accord this problem even when they know about it, and their often ludicrous and incorrect assumptions about SM that lead them to offer meaningless diagnoses to owners.

It remains the case that most owners recognise the problem by self-education on SM before their vets ever do, and it is owners who most often insist on their dog seeing a neurologist and getting the correct diagnosis, not vets telling owners they should check out the possibility of SM.
 
Back
Top