• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

Curious comment.

Curious comment

Cathy Moon said:
Absolutely - this sort of thing has been going on for years and is a useful tool.
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CURIOUS COMMENT


I have just had a Sickening Rant made against me on the DOG WORLD FORUM by a CKCS COMMITTEE CLUB MEMBER.

If I could give you what I believe could maybe be the Back-Ground Reason to all the Abusive Comments I have been receiving lately.

In a Cavalier Forum on the Internet, a Newly Elected Member of the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE questioned My State Of Mind.I wrote to the CKCS CLUB Committee with a Complaint about this. It was discussed at the last CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE ,as to whether I would receive a written Apology from the CKCS CLUB Committee about the Accusation made against me by this Committee Member.

Also I had a Phone Call from the Chair -Person of the CKCS CLUB saying that she had forbidden any CKCS Committee Member to make any Personal Comments about any-body on Cavalier Forums on the Internet in the future.

This apparently has been ignored by a CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE MEMBER in his Abusive Comments to me a short while ago.

I will let you decide whether two and two make four for the Venemous Attacks being made against me.

This is ,I believe because I have dared to mention the Two Serious Health Problems in our Cavaliers ,SM and MVD.

I just wonder, am I beginning to hit a Raw Nerve.

Bet
 
I so agree with the last two comments!! Also Sins, loving the Darth Vader smiley!!!! Best laugh I've had all week :rotfl:
 
Hi Bet

I am more than happy to post on DW in support of you Bet but to be honest you dont need it you are hitting them where it hurts so carry on Corporal Jones give em some cold steel .cl*p
Rock on Bet.b*n*n*
 
Curious comment

Brian M said:
Hi Bet

I am more than happy to post on DW in support of you Bet but to be honest you dont need it you are hitting them where it hurts so carry on Corporal Jones give em some cold steel .cl*p
Rock on Bet.b*n*n*
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CURIOUS COMMENT

Thanks for that ,Brian, I for sure feel like I am being a Female Cpl Jones at the moment, but it is all being worth while,some-things are now coming to light, it let's us Cavalier Lovers know where we stand with some of the Cavalier Breeders who have not done them-selves any Favours.

If I could possibly mention this ,the Comment made by the Cavalier Breed Coluninist in DW about the Unnecessary Health Testingfor our Cavaliers recently in DW, she had also made a Statement in her Cavalier Breed Column in Dog World,27-7 -10,that in her Opinion, when she was commenting about the MRI SCANNING SCHEME for our Cavaliers, ,the Likelihood of Members Remaining in the Scheme as it Stands is Pretty Remote.
 
Curious comment

Bet said:
CURIOUS COMMENT

Thanks for that ,Brian, I for sure feel like I am being a Female Cpl Jones at the moment, but it is all being worth while,some-things are now coming to light, it let's us Cavalier Lovers know where we stand with some of the Cavalier Breeders who have not done them-selves any Favours.

If I could possibly mention this ,the Comment made by the Cavalier Breed Coluninist in DW about the Unnecessary Health Testingfor our Cavaliers recently in DW, she had also made a Statement in her Cavalier Breed Column in Dog World,27-7 -10,that in her Opinion, when she was commenting about the MRI SCANNING SCHEME for our Cavaliers, ,the Likelihood of Members Remaining in the Scheme as it Stands is Pretty Remote.
Click to expand...

Sorry about this pressed a wrong key before I had finished.!!!!

I asked her twice on the DW Forum what did she mean by this Statement ,what was wrong with the MRI Scanning Scheme ,but her silence was Deafening.

Also I am known as well as Bet Hargreaves ,but also Cavalier Lover on the Dog World Forum. I had mentioned here yesterday about a CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE having a Rant at me on that Forum ,because he wanted the people to know that I am not qualified to be making the Statements that I am making about the Health Problems in our Cavaliers,I think because of the many Tears I have had through some of our Cherished dying at such a young age because of MVD, I am quite qualifed to let the Cavalier Buying Public be made aware ,to always ask to see a Health Certificate as Proof that they are Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock, and to Prove that they are following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations from the CKCS CLUB and the Researchers.

Bet
 
Curious comment

Bet said:
Sorry about this pressed a wrong key before I had finished.!!!!

I asked her twice on the DW Forum what did she mean by this Statement ,what was wrong with the MRI Scanning Scheme ,but her silence was Deafening.

Also I am known as well as Bet Hargreaves ,but also Cavalier Lover on the Dog World Forum. I had mentioned here yesterday about a CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE having a Rant at me on that Forum ,because he wanted the people to know that I am not qualified to be making the Statements that I am making about the Health Problems in our Cavaliers,I think because of the many Tears I have had through some of our Cherished dying at such a young age because of MVD, I am quite qualifed to let the Cavalier Buying Public be made aware ,to always ask to see a Health Certificate as Proof that they are Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock, and to Prove that they are following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations from the CKCS CLUB and the Researchers.

Bet
Click to expand...

CURIOUS COMMENT.

I am sorry to keep going on about this again, but Norma Inglis has mentioned in her Chatterbox Forum to-day ,that most of the Cavaliers' Health Problems are due to the Puppy Farmers and BYB's.Does she not understand that this is what a number of us are trying to get across to the Cavalier Buying Public ,only buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who will show as Proof a Health Certificate that their Cavalier Breeding Stock is being Health Tested .and Proof that the Cavalier Breeding Guideline Recommendations from both the CKCS CLUB and the Researchers into SM and MVD are being followed.

This way the Puppy Farmers and BYB's will be being asked the same Questions.

Bet
 
Seriously Bet,anyone with a shred of dignity would withdraw from that appalling cyberbrawl on Dogworld comments.
I've by now lost count of the potentially litigious comments made by cavalier breeders against each other.:shock:
The reputation of the breed is far more likely to be destroyed by that kind of behaviour than by comments(fair or unjust) from pet owners.
Sins
 
Yes this is a key point -- the importance of buying registered puppies from active kennel/cavalier club breeders who can produce and discuss the relevant health certs is exactly what the puppy buyer guides say on this site and many others that are concerned about HEALTH.

The puppy farm issue is the favourite red herring of certain club members. As neurologists have publicly confirmed, there is NO DIFFERENCE in the rate of SM-affected dogs they see in registered dogs, club breeder dogs, and BYB/puppy farm dogs. I have spoken to Geoff Skerrit, Dominic Marino and Clare Rusbridge on this issue and they all agree on the point. Some have mentioned it at the last two SM health events that sadly, so few club breeders actually attended.

On MVD: the club's own cardiologist has pointed out that the UK Club has produced NO improvement in heart results in 17 years and he expressed frustration that the club for a long time didn't even recommend the MVD protocol much less make cardiologist testing (rather than inferior level vet testing) a requirement for breeding. The KC has shown no interest in setting a minimum standard like this either. The club poor heart results sadly still parallel what cardiologists and vets say they see from puppy farm and BYB cavaliers. Unfortunately the tiny handful of club breeders who do actually follow the MVD protocol and have improved heart health over time, are not enough to pull up the overall dismal record of CLUB BREEDERS AS CONFIRMED BY THEIR OWN CLUB CARDIOLOGIST SIMON SWIFT IN A PUBLIC STATEMENT ON THE MATTER. But then again, few club breeders actually heard this, as they were all out in the lobby gossiping over coffee rather than attending his session at last year's AGM, a criticism made by their own club chairwoman and posted prominently to the homepage of their website by her at the time. Perhaps that contributes to some continuing breeder ignorance on this issue.

Maybe breeders like Norma will attend one of these health events some day :rolleyes:, or directly approach Simon Swift or one of the neurologists, and then ask this question of the experts actually doing the scanning and auscultations to hear the answer first hand.

  • If you are buying a puppy, of course absolutely avoid BYBs and puppy farms for all sorts of ethical and animal welfare reasons including health issues -- but also avoid club breeders who cannot show you proper heart and MRI certs, hip scores, eye tests and patella tests. Opt for a kennel club/cavalier club breeder that CAN show you they are doing relevant tests and the results you wish to see. The puppy buyer guides posted in the righthand column of the homepage all explain how to find such breeders, what to look for and what to ask. (y) Unfortunately at this time the effort to check that a breeder actually breeds for health must all come from the puppy buyer.
 
Karlin said:
Yes this is a key point -- the importance of buying registered puppies from active kennel/cavalier club breeders who can produce and discuss the relevant health certs is exactly what the puppy buyer guides say on this site and many others that are concerned about HEALTH.

The puppy farm issue is the favourite red herring of certain club members. As neurologists have publicly confirmed, there is NO DIFFERENCE in the rate of SM-affected dogs they see in registered dogs, club breeder dogs, and BYB/puppy farm dogs. I have spoken to Geoff Skerrit, Dominic Marino and Clare Rusbridge on this issue and they all agree on the point. Some have mentioned it at the last two SM health events that sadly, so few club breeders actually attended.

On MVD: the club's own cardiologist has pointed out that the UK Club has produced NO improvement in heart results in 17 years and he expressed frustration that the club for a long time didn't even recommend the MVD protocol much less make cardiologist testing (rather than inferior level vet testing) a requirement for breeding. The KC has shown no interest in setting a minimum standard like this either. The club poor heart results sadly still parallel what cardiologists and vets say they see from puppy farm and BYB cavaliers. Unfortunately the tiny handful of club breeders who do actually follow the MVD protocol and have improved heart health over time, are not enough to pull up the overall dismal record of CLUB BREEDERS AS CONFIRMED BY THEIR OWN CLUB CARDIOLOGIST SIMON SWIFT IN A PUBLIC STATEMENT ON THE MATTER. But then again, few club breeders actually heard this, as they were all out in the lobby gossiping over coffee rather than attending his session at last year's AGM, a criticism made by their own club chairwoman and posted prominently to the homepage of their website by her at the time. Perhaps that contributes to some continuing breeder ignorance on this issue.

Maybe breeders like Norma will attend one of these health events some day :rolleyes:, or directly approach Simon Swift or one of the neurologists, and then ask this question of the experts actually doing the scanning and auscultations to hear the answer first hand.

  • If you are buying a puppy, of course absolutely avoid BYBs and puppy farms for all sorts of ethical and animal welfare reasons including health issues -- but also avoid club breeders who cannot show you proper heart and MRI certs, hip scores, eye tests and patella tests. Opt for a kennel club/cavalier club breeder that CAN show you they are doing relevant tests and the results you wish to see. The puppy buyer guides posted in the righthand column of the homepage all explain how to find such breeders, what to look for and what to ask. (y) Unfortunately at this time the effort to check that a breeder actually breeds for health must all come from the puppy buyer.
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CURIOUS COMMENT

Thank-you Karlin for your Post.

You have explained it so much better than I ever could about how the Cavalier Buying Public have such a big part to Play in trying to get our Cavaliers Healthier, Longer Lives.

I am starting to wonder about the comments some Prominent Cavalier Breeders are making about the suggestion that the Cavalier Buying Public be made aware to always ask to see a Health Certificate from the Cavalier Breeder ,if they are Health Testing and following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations for their Cavalier Breeding Stock ,and this would include the Puppy Farm Breeders and BYB'S as well,do they not wan't this to happen in-case some of the Cavalier Show Breeders will also be being asked this question.

Surely not !!!

Is there a Quote from Shakespear that might apply here.?

Me Thinks Thou Doth Protest Too Much.

Bet







This is such an important message to get across to
 
Curious Comment.

Bet said:
CURIOUS COMMENT

Thank-you Karlin for your Post.

You have explained it so much better than I ever could about how the Cavalier Buying Public have such a big part to Play in trying to get our Cavaliers Healthier, Longer Lives.

I am starting to wonder about the comments some Prominent Cavalier Breeders are making about the suggestion that the Cavalier Buying Public be made aware to always ask to see a Health Certificate from the Cavalier Breeder ,if they are Health Testing and following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations for their Cavalier Breeding Stock ,and this would include the Puppy Farm Breeders and BYB'S as well,do they not wan't this to happen in-case some of the Cavalier Show Breeders will also be being asked this question.

Surely not !!!

Is there a Quote from Shakespear that might apply here.?

Me Thinks Thou Doth Protest Too Much.

Bet







This is such an important message to get across to
Click to expand...


Curious Comment.

So now we know.

Such an Arrogant Comment has just been Posted on the DW Forum ,I just had to mention it.

We do not need the Researchers who are Researching the SM and MVD Problems in our Breed, that we are suffering from Hero Worship when we listen to those Researchers who are giving advice about those Health Problems.

The Owners of Cavaliers with SM and MVD should be taking the advice from some of the Cavalier Breeders how to get the answer to those Two Health Problems.

I suppose this Vociferous Cavalier Breeder will also have the Arrogance to feel she is capable of finding the Genes causing SM and MVD in our Cavalier Breed.

Bet
 
Wonder if that comment includes the UK breeders, some of them on those other forums, who refuse to return calls and emails from their puppy buyers who have ended up with SM dogs? Who told some of them not to bother scanning? Who recommended they buy a puppy from an underaged, unscanned, non-heart-tested sire and unscanned, non-heart-tested dam simply because 'the line was a good one' and the seller was a friend? The ones who cover up the dogs of their own breeding that have SM, some of which they then sell on for breeding overseas? Who claim the only dog they have ever had with SM was 'bought in' when actually, it was 'bought in' from someone who used their sire to father that dog? I know a few of those ones read this board... :rolleyes: I am sure puppy buyers cannot wait to rush to get help from these wonderful ladies and gentleman rather than neurologists and cardiologists...
 
Curious comment

Karlin said:
Wonder if that comment includes the UK breeders, some of them on those other forums, who refuse to return calls and emails from their puppy buyers who have ended up with SM dogs? Who told some of them not to bother scanning? Who recommended they buy a puppy from an underaged, unscanned, non-heart-tested sire and unscanned, non-heart-tested dam simply because 'the line was a good one' and the seller was a friend? The ones who cover up the dogs of their own breeding that have SM, some of which they then sell on for breeding overseas? Who claim the only dog they have ever had with SM was 'bought in' when actually, it was 'bought in' from someone who used their sire to father that dog? I know a few of those ones read this board... :rolleyes: I am sure puppy buyers cannot wait to rush to get help from these wonderful ladies and gentleman rather than neurologists and cardiologists...
Click to expand...

Curious Comment,

What an EYE OPENER ,Karlin.

If I could just mention again since I have been slated by once more by Norma Inglis on a Forum about a Comment I made about an Article she wrote about Cavalier Puppy Farmers and BYB's in her Chatterbox.

What she and some others can't or won't understand , that when they keep giving the Cavalier Registrations from those Establishments as against so few Cavalier Registrations from CKCS CLUB Members, that if All Cavalier Breeders were asked by the Cavalier Buying Public ,to Provide Proof that they are Health Testing and following the Breeding Line Recommendations from the CKCS CLUB and the Cavalier Researchers into SM and MVD, then those Puppy Farmers and BYB's would also have to being be asked to Provide the same Evidence and if they could'nt do this not to buy a Cavalier from them, would this not be the quickest way to put those Puppy Farmers out of Business ,or do some Cavalier Breeders not want this Question asked from them if they are members of the Cavalier Club in-case they are not Health Testing and Following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations.

Bet
 
Karlin said:
Wonder if that comment includes the UK breeders, some of them on those other forums, who refuse to return calls and emails from their puppy buyers who have ended up with SM dogs? Who told some of them not to bother scanning? Who recommended they buy a puppy from an underaged, unscanned, non-heart-tested sire and unscanned, non-heart-tested dam simply because 'the line was a good one' and the seller was a friend? The ones who cover up the dogs of their own breeding that have SM, some of which they then sell on for breeding overseas? Who claim the only dog they have ever had with SM was 'bought in' when actually, it was 'bought in' from someone who used their sire to father that dog? I know a few of those ones read this board... :rolleyes: I am sure puppy buyers cannot wait to rush to get help from these wonderful ladies and gentleman rather than neurologists and cardiologists...
Click to expand...

That would include the 'experienced breeder' who is openly gloating on the Dog world comments about the fact that our little cavalier, Faith, failed to conceive when recently mated.

She is delighted that a Grade A to Grade A*( scanned clear over 5 years old ) mating failed.
A breeding that has just been shown to give a better than 75% chance of producing more Grade A cavaliers

This is a breeder that frequently claims she is a "Guardian of the Breed"

Her fellow breeders must feel very proud of their spokesperson.
 
That would include the 'experienced breeder' who is openly gloating on the Dog world comments about the fact that our little cavalier, Faith, failed to conceive when recently mated.

She is delighted that a Grade A to Grade A*( scanned clear over 5 years old ) mating failed.
A breeding that has just been shown to give a better than 75% chance of producing more Grade A cavaliers

This is a breeder that frequently claims she is a "Guardian of the Breed"

Her fellow breeders must feel very proud of their spokesperson.
Click to expand...

When I read that comment from that "experienced breeder", my first thought was what a shallow and juvenile person that person must be. Shame on her. What a totally inappropriate thing to say.

J.
 
Curious comment

Jay said:
When I read that comment from that "experienced breeder", my first thought was what a shallow and juvenile person that person must be. Shame on her. What a totally inappropriate thing to say.

J.
Click to expand...


CURIOUS COMMENT

I always knew that if she was Given Enough Rope She Would Hang Her-Self as the saying goes.

Unfortunately her Small Merrie Band just won't understand the Damage she is going to the Cavalier Breed.

They won't accept that the Genes for SM and MVD have got to be found ,then the Cavalier Carriers for those Diseases will also be found.

In that way ,the Cavalier Breed will have the chance of a Future.

It is so Tragic that they are so ignorant ,that it can't be got through to them about the times we are now Living in.

I just feel that this why there is no improvement in the Cavaliers' MVD Problem ,there are now so many Cavalier Carriers of MVD around.

If those certain few Cavalier Breeders can't realize this and stop their Childish ,Petty Squabbles about the SM Problem in Cavaliers ,then SM will go the same way as the MVD Problem in our Breed.

I do so hope that the Cavalier Buying Public will realize that it is the Researchers they have to listen to and to take their Advice about the SM and MVD Problems in Cavaliers , not a few Cavalier Breeders who are still living in the 20th Century and think the know Best about how to cure the SM and MVD problems in our Beloved Cavaliers.

Bet
 
Wow! I guess a documented threat of an ethics charge can really help some club members to start thinking a little more clearly. Hiding behind phony monikers on a comment list -- even when their identities are obvious -- is like road rage. And in this case it caused the writer(s) to snowball totally out of control. They must have thought they were so smart as to know everything about that breeding, even things the breeder didn't know.
 
even when their identities are obvious
Click to expand...

So true. Given how many club breeders are aware of these 'anonymous coward' true identities, I would think they must find it interesting to see what this woman, for example, is truly like behind the mask she sometimes portrays to pet owners and other breeders. :rolleyes: I would think club breeders would also be quite alarmed at these vicious rants and must only feel relieved she is not a public spokesperson on issues. Such posts as have appeared in that particular thread do not do breeders any credit and certainly damage their image further. It is funny though how some of these people in their real identities are quick to threaten lawsuits over any comment made about them yet make clearly libellous and untrue statements while hiding in their anonymous coward mode.

Maybe they don't realise that in a libel case their true identities would be revealed leaving them open to considerable damages and high legal costs. 'Anonymity' is not a defense for libel (or idiocy) and confirming actual identities online is fairly easy through the publications and ISPs involved once there is a court request. UK defamation cases tend to reward very high damages. Having the posts removed after the fact of posting makes no difference -- they have been recorded by many individuals and also are in the server records of the publications and their hosting services. Removing them may however get the publication off the hook for defamation.
 
Curious comment

Karlin said:
So true. Given how many club breeders are aware of these 'anonymous coward' true identities, I would think they must find it interesting to see what this woman, for example, is truly like behind the mask she sometimes portrays to pet owners and other breeders. :rolleyes: I would think club breeders would also be quite alarmed at these vicious rants and must only feel relieved she is not a public spokesperson on issues. Such posts as have appeared in that particular thread do not do breeders any credit and certainly damage their image further. It is funny though how some of these people in their real identities are quick to threaten lawsuits over any comment made about them yet make clearly libellous and untrue statements while hiding in their anonymous coward mode.

Maybe they don't realise that in a libel case their true identities would be revealed leaving them open to considerable damages and high legal costs. 'Anonymity' is not a defense for libel (or idiocy) and confirming actual identities online is fairly easy through the publications and ISPs involved once there is a court request. UK defamation cases tend to reward very high damages. Having the posts removed after the fact of posting makes no difference -- they have been recorded by many individuals and also are in the server records of the publications and their hosting services. Removing them may however get the publication off the hook for defamation.
Click to expand...


CURIOUS COMMENT


I do wonder if what had been written in a Dog Magazine a few Months ago applies to what has been happening in the Cavalier Breed recently with some of the Posts on the DW Forum.

The Article mentioned that in Shallow World of Dog Exhibition there is always the Breed Mafia.

Usually a Group of Elderly Women (with the Occasional Male) that is Steadfast in it's View even when Wrong,they are Self Proclaimed Experts who claim

WE ARE THE BREED ,THERE IS NOTHING ANY-ONE CAN TEACH US ABOUT THIS BREED .

Does this sound Familiar.

What Fanciful Nonsense we have been subjected to by a certain few Cavalier Breeders, all I can say is if you have not got a Breeding Policy for SM ,then for goodness sake don't attack the Breeding Policy that is being given by the Researchers into the SM and MVD Problems in Cavaliers.

If those certain Few Cavalier Breeders cannot come up with a Policy for tackling SM and MVD in the Cavalier Breed ,then they are Completely Irrelevant for Cavaliers.

Bet
 
RodRussell said:
Wow! I guess a documented threat of an ethics charge can really help some club members to start thinking a little more clearly. Hiding behind phony monikers on a comment list -- even when their identities are obvious -- is like road rage. And in this case it caused the writer(s) to snowball totally out of control. They must have thought they were so smart as to know everything about that breeding, even things the breeder didn't know.
Click to expand...

The whole thing has now been removed but 'Road Rage Ronnie' did post a retraction, which I will take as an apology and as an acknowledgement she deliberately lied.

My blog on the KC/BVA Scheme has been viewed nearly 600 times, so hopefully some of those reading the Dog World comments checked out the figures and the important points made at the seminar.
 
so hopefully some of those reading the Dog World comments checked out the figures and the important points made at the seminar.
Click to expand...

Getting this information out to be discussed is so important and helpful so thanks to those who took notes and then took the time to write them up for all to read as there is great interest on both breeder and pet owner sides.

There are a lot of people who can't or won't attend events but are hungry for information. Too often the information that is then produced from people who cannot quite remember details or who sometimes seem to deliberately mislead, is incorrect and distorted and discussions erupt and assumptions made about things that were never even said. As some breeders who subsequently wanted more detail admitted, they took no notes at all or only sketchy ones. Maybe in future clubs might appoint a health liaison to take 'official' notes that could be verified with the researchers/presenters and the formal bodies like the KC/BVA, then made available online to club members?

It is good that you had such detail Margaret, and that Tania had good notes too and that some responsible folks went and just asked the people who gave the presentations if they could clarify detail. (y)

It seems that researchers were constrained from either giving handouts of a scheme not yet finalised by the KC/BVA, or giving out copies of research posters or charts of results from papers not yet peer reviewed. Simply asking the researchers involved got an explanation, but instead some didn't contact researchers and clarify their questions and instead assumed there were snubs or people ignoring their requests :rolleyes:. And then some people are saying it is the researchers who don't take time to talk to breeders!! :rolleyes: It would seem just from the number of regular seminars given by researchers for the breeder community that this is not the case anyway; far from it. If more attended the seminars then more would have the chance to ask questions directly and information would not have to pass through one or two people before getting disseminated, which increases the chances of errors. Or again -- if someone took official notes, this would help resolve confusion on issues or prevent confusion in the first place :).
 
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