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Can the cavalier breed be saved?

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Margaret C said:
I have just read a comment about a population of wolves on the Isle Royale in the US.

This is said to be a natural experiment on the effects of inbreeding alone, with continuing natural selection and no artificial selection for appearance.

The wolves are cut off on the island because ice bridges to the mainland only form when winters are unusually severe.

"The scientists found that 58 percent of the wolves on Isle Royale exhibit a congenital malformation in the lumbosacral region or lower back, and 33 percent display a specific deformity—lumbosacral transitional vertebrae—which can cause full or partial paralysis of the rear legs and tail, as well as back pain."

"For the last 12 years, every one of the dead wolves the researchers have found has displayed bone deformities. In contrast, these deformities occur in only 1 percent of studied wolf populations that are not inbred."

"Up to now, wildlife management agencies in the US and Scandinavia have cited the Isle Royale wolves as proof that small wolf populations can avoid genetic deterioration and remain viable.
"Our study removes one more example that some use to downplay the consequences of genetic deterioration," the Swedish scientist Raikkonen says"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090402171440.htm
Click to expand...

Margaret,

I sent you article about moscow strays and how they have watched them evolve since the 1800's. A researcher has studied them and now grouped to 4 categories. Said there are ones that have increased intellegence and actually have mastered the subway system.

Now if there are some with increased intellegence does that mean their brain is bigger? JOKE! Its been a long couple days.

When people start getting into some things that are way deep, it gets me uncomfortable. However, this is what it is like to see evolution being studied. Now, I don't think cavaliers would make the subway no matter how genetically healthy they are.

Ok, no rest last night so just wanted to respond about wolf study but can't copy and past link...

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Margaret,

I sent the one I originally saw which references skull sizes etc and pedigree dogs and domistication of wolves.

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anniemac said:
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Click to expand...

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

HOW CAN IT?

When at the AGM 2009 the Lecture given by the CKCS CLUB'S Cardiologist said that 50% of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of Age ,and this NO BETTER THAN IT WAS 18 YEARS AGO.

And Research Cardiologists mention that there are Many Cavaliers now Carriers of the MVD GENES.

It looks as if ,because of this Statement that it will be about impossible to find Two Cavaliers to Mate to-gether who are not MVD Carriers.

To save the Breed a Cavalier who is not a MVD Carrier can be Mated to Cavalier MVD Carrier.

So ,can the Cavalier Breed be able to be Saved ,be Summed Up with Two Words.

NO CHANCE.

Bet

PS ,and this is only for Cavaliers MVD Problem ,not their SM Problem .












So is the Answere to this
 
Bet said:
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

HOW CAN IT?

When at the AGM 2009 the Lecture given by the CKCS CLUB'S Cardiologist said that 50% of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of Age ,and this NO BETTER THAN IT WAS 18 YEARS AGO.

And Research Cardiologists mention that there are Many Cavaliers now Carriers of the MVD GENES.

It looks as if ,because of this Statement that it will be about impossible to find Two Cavaliers to Mate to-gether who are not MVD Carriers.

To save the Breed a Cavalier who is not a MVD Carrier can be Mated to Cavalier MVD Carrier.

So ,can the Cavalier Breed be able to be Saved ,be Summed Up with Two Words.

NO CHANCE. ...
Click to expand...

ONE MORE TIME:

The goal is NOT to eradicate MVD in the breed. It is to reduce, and eventually eliminate, EARLY ONSET MVD in the breed. GOT IT????
 
RodRussell said:
ONE MORE TIME:

The goal is NOT to eradicate MVD in the breed. It is to reduce, and eventually eliminate, EARLY ONSET MVD in the breed. GOT IT????
Click to expand...

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


This is why you feel like you are Banging your Head Against a Brick Wall , when some of the Cavalier Breeders keep insisting that Cavalier Breeding Guidelines are just that , only Breeding Guidelines, they just can't seem to understand that those Breeding Guidelines have been given by the Researchers for a Purpose ,to Delay the Early Onset of MVD and SM.

Unfortunately some of those Cavalier Breeders seem to have Illusions of Grandeur , that they Know Better than the Information coming from the Researchers.

Those Breeders I would think have no Knowledge in Genetics for our Cavaliers , I doubt if any of them have a Degree in the Subject .

As I said in a Previous Post ,for some Cavalier Breeders , and sadly they seem to be holding Places of Authority in the Cavalier Club ,Fear of Genetic Diseases can lead to Group Behaviour , some-times the Followers of a Big Name? wish to Curry Favour , Health Survey Results will be Suppressed , and as we seeing at the Moment here in Britain, Genetic Health Programs being Stifled.

Bet
 
Bet said:
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


This is why you feel like you are Banging your Head Against a Brick Wall , when some of the Cavalier Breeders keep insisting that Cavalier Breeding Guidelines are just that , only Breeding Guidelines, they just can't seem to understand that those Breeding Guidelines have been given by the Researchers for a Purpose ,to Delay the Early Onset of MVD and SM.

Unfortunately some of those Cavalier Breeders seem to have Illusions of Grandeur , that they Know Better than the Information coming from the Researchers.

Those Breeders I would think have no Knowledge in Genetics for our Cavaliers , I doubt if any of them have a Degree in the Subject .

As I said in a Previous Post ,for some Cavalier Breeders , and sadly they seem to be holding Places of Authority in the Cavalier Club ,Fear of Genetic Diseases can lead to Group Behaviour , some-times the Followers of a Big Name? wish to Curry Favour , Health Survey Results will be Suppressed , and as we seeing at the Moment here in Britain, Genetic Health Programs being Stifled.

Bet
Click to expand...


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Just noticed this Comment in this Week's DOG WORLD from the CKCS CLUB'S CHAIR -PERSON.

She is mentioning about the Mutations for Dry Eye and Curly Coat and the Episodic Falling Problem in our Cavalier Breed that have been found.

Then ,she goes onto say that this is Proof that Working with the Experts Helps.

These Scientists have given their Time to Help the Cavalier Breed,however if no-one is Prepared to Provide the DATA ,we cannot move forward,that ,she says is the difficulty.

She further said ,that at the CLUB'S HEART TESTING carried out by Simon Swift ,the Club's Cardiologist at the CLUB'S Championship Show in March,,he was disappointed to find that there were only Three Cavaliers over the Age of 7 who were Murmur Free.

She continues by saying ,that the CLUB now awaits the Out-come of Talks regarding the Imminent KC/BVA SM SCHEME and the and the Apparent Stumbling Block of Publication of Results.

Is this because of Some Cavalier Breeders in the Shallow World of Cavalier Showing, usually a Group of Elderly Women ,(with an Occasional Male) who are Steadfast in the View ,even when Wrong,that they are the SELF PROCLAIMED EXPERTS in the Cavalier Breed,with their Chant .

WE ARE THE BREED ,THERE IS NOTHING ANY-ONE CAN TEACH US ABOUT CAVALIERS!.

Unfortunately All this does is to Create Disharmony, Damages Cavaliers and Stagnates the Gene Pool to such a Degree that Health Crisis are Inevitable.

Bet
 
I have been reading all these letters about how can the cavalier breed be saved. I don't understand why people are saying these things. I have waited so long to find the right time in my life when I can have a cavvie and now people are saying that they shouldn't be bred any more.
Several of my family members have had cavvies and they have all seemed to be quite healthy. Charlies Mam and Dad are both over five years old and his breeder says that lots of his relations have lived a long time. I don't know about the puppy farm ones. I think they have a lot of problems. There is a rescue place in Wales that takes them in and some are in an awful state and so sad to see. I would have liked to have had one of these but they like them to go to homes that have another dog.
 
Bet said:
Is this because of Some Cavalier Breeders in the Shallow World of Cavalier Showing, usually a Group of Elderly Women ,(with an Occasional Male) who are Steadfast in the View ,even when Wrong,that they are the SELF PROCLAIMED EXPERTS in the Cavalier Breed,with their Chant .

Bet
Click to expand...


How dare you mock the showing of dogs, you realy are becoming a sad person Bet.
I cannot understand the constant need to go on and on and on posting the same comments> Everyone has heard it all before:bang:

Nanette
 
HollyDolly said:
How dare you mock the showing of dogs, you realy are becoming a sad person Bet.
I cannot understand the constant need to go on and on and on posting the same comments> Everyone has heard it all before:bang:

Nanette
Click to expand...


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Nanette,

Just Quoting from an Article which was Published in the Telegraph News-Paper.

Also what the CKCS Chair-Person mentioned in this Week's DOG WORLD, about how the Health of the Cavalier Breed cannot move forward unless the every-one is Prepared to Provide the Data Needed.

Bet
 
Bet,
It doesn't matter what's written in the Telegraph.
Oddly enough,it probably doesn't even matter what the Club Chairman says.
Because people will carry on doing what they want to do,regardless of what anyone says or thinks.
At the end of the day..until the people who buy cavalier puppies decide they want a decent puppy from a breeder who tests for eyes,heart and Mri scans..
then all the weeping and gnashing of teeth is a pointless exercise.
Leaving politics out of the equation,there is NOTHING to stop a breeder from doing as much testing as they wish.
Basically you can breed according to your conscience
or according to the recommended guidelines,
or sometimes even both..
While driving to Devon recently,to collect my new puppy,We drove through Wales after getting off the ferry.It was an eye opener to drive past the farms where signs were up in the fields beside large sheds...PUPS FOR SALE!
The pups may well have been potatoes,turnips or strawberries..drop in...pick your own..:mad:
I seriously doubt for one moment that these guys gave a toss about the cavalier club chairman or what she thinks or feels about the need for data.
and yes,there are Club breeders too who will tell you that they don't believe in scanning.
But what really matters is when you come to buy your puppy...Do you??

Sins
 
sins said:
Bet,
It doesn't matter what's written in the Telegraph.
Oddly enough,it probably doesn't even matter what the Club Chairman says.
Because people will carry on doing what they want to do,regardless of what anyone says or thinks.
At the end of the day..until the people who buy cavalier puppies decide they want a decent puppy from a breeder who tests for eyes,heart and Mri scans..
then all the weeping and gnashing of teeth is a pointless exercise.
Leaving politics out of the equation,there is NOTHING to stop a breeder from doing as much testing as they wish.
Basically you can breed according to your conscience
or according to the recommended guidelines,
or sometimes even both..
While driving to Devon recently,to collect my new puppy,We drove through Wales after getting off the ferry.It was an eye opener to drive past the farms where signs were up in the fields beside large sheds...PUPS FOR SALE!
The pups may well have been potatoes,turnips or strawberries..drop in...pick your own..:mad:
I seriously doubt for one moment that these guys gave a toss about the cavalier club chairman or what she thinks or feels about the need for data.
and yes,there are Club breeders too who will tell you that they don't believe in scanning.
But what really matters is when you come to buy your puppy...Do you??

Sins
Click to expand...


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Back to my Original Question....

Only if the Cavalier Buying Public are told about how sick the Cavalier Breed is with their SM and MVD Health Problems ,and what the Medications cost to help relieve the Cavaliers suffering from the Pain of SM and MVD.

I am not sure about this , but is it not about £ 100 a month.

That way ,if the Prospective Cavalier Buyers know these Facts and perhaps don't buy Cavaliers for a while , then many Cavalier Breeders will have to change their Attitude about how they are Breeding Cavaliers ,this will also include the Cavaliers Bred on Puppy Farms.

What other way is there for the Health Problems in our Cavalier Breed to be tackled?

For Sure ,after over 20 years the MVD Problem is not improving in Cavaliers with many Cavalier Breeders not heeding the Breeding Guidelines that have been given by the Researchers.

Just maybe though, the message is getting across to to the Buyers of Cavaliers ,since the Registrations have dropped by over 3,000 in the Past Two years, to just on 8,000 the Lowest they have ever been for I would think 40 years.

Bet
 
Bet and others on this thread: I will place ALL of you on moderation if you choose to make personal and derogatory comments about either individuals or groups that are simply ad hominem attacks. Deal with the issues only please.

This includes directly insulting anyone on this board which is grounds for removing people from board membership. People agree NOT to do this when they register by agreeing to the terms of board use and some are repeat offenders in this department and are stretching my willingness to keep them here pretty thin as I get tired of having to read everything you post for appropriateness.

This also includes making totally inappropriate (and ridiculous) comments about age (Bet, what the hell does age matter whether of people showing dogs or arguing for health? There are young and old on all sides. There are plenty of young breeders with poor breeding practice and older breeders who are strong health advocates and age is *meaningless* in either context).

I am now locking this thread and the relevant issues of interest WITHOUT the childish and personal comments can be reopened in a new forum. But I am close to permanently removing several members here.
 
PS I ABSOLUTELY AGREE with this comment.

At the end of the day..until the people who buy cavalier puppies decide they want a decent puppy from a breeder who tests for eyes,heart and Mri scans..
then all the weeping and gnashing of teeth is a pointless exercise.
Click to expand...

Many here are responsible puppy buyers. Others bought before they knew the true picture about what to ask about and look for in a breeder, and are wiser now.

But I am tired of watching puppy BUYERS on this site and elsewhere talk about supporting health then getting a new puppy asap without ever requesting and seeing MRI certs, cardio certs and other important information (or changing their mind to opt for a cheap puppy from a non-testing breeder or part-testing breeder :x ).

Too many BUYERS still think health in the breed is a philosophical issue they support fully -- except when it comes to their own instant gratification in getting their puppy. Some who post here claiming their breeder was health focused are so obviously not telling the truth of who they bought from and what they KNOW the breeder does NOT do when it comes to health testing. :( You know who you are -- I often ask you if you saw MRI certs and you reply to all sorts of other questions but not that one. :x

The future of the breed would change in an *instant* if all buyers demanded proper health clearances. But we -- too many of you, of us -- do not. Buyers -- meaning members here, and those who are not members but read the site -- are just as responsible for improving the dire state of the breed, and need to search consciences as much as breeders and show by actions -- who you buy puppies from! -- that you truly want this breed to not just survive but live longer healthier lives with less pain.
 
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