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Kc/bva sm scheme

B

Bet

Well-known member
This new Notice has just appeared on the UK CKCS CLUB WEB SITE

There is to be a Survey taken as to whether CKCS CLUB Members want the Publication of the Results of the MRI Scans to be being Published in the Kennel Club's Breed Supplement .

This is to be discussed at the Forth-coming Meeting with the Kennel Club on 3rd February 2011.

Since there are so many Cavalier Owners on this List who are not CKCS CLUB Members ,could it be possible to have a Survey from those Cavalier Owners giving their Views as well to forward to the Kennel Club to be also discussed at this Meeting.

Because so many Cavaliers are bought by Cavalier Pet Owners ,for the sake of Transparency , should their views be being Considered as well.

Bet
 
Hello Bet

As I am not a member of the main Cavalier Club but am a member of one of the regional Clubs and as all of my four girls came from well known established breeders and are all Kennel Club registered I intend sending emails to both The Cavalier Club and the Kennel Club stating why as a pet owner I think the BVA / KC CMSM Scheme – Publication of Results should be fully accepted and all results published.
 
Evelyn said:
I have done the same Brian. The more that express their views the better.

Evelyn
Click to expand...

KC/BVA SM SCHEME

Could I Broaden this a bit further.

When some-one buys a Cavalier ,they will want to know whether the Parents and Grand-Parents are suffering from SM and I will include MVD

Also on the UK CKCS CLUB WEB SITE ,it stated that for those Members and I will include Buyers of Cavaliers ,since there will be more Cavaliers in the Homes of Cavalier Owners who are not Cavalier Breeders,will also want to have Verified if a Cavalier Has been Scanned or not,the Age this done ,this was also explained on the Web Site ,the MRI Scheme will give Accessibility of Information ,Openess and Transparency.

Surely a Buyer of a Cavalier must be given this Information.

I would think that there might be a Number of Buyers of Cavaliers who won't understand the Gradings of SM.

Is the Most Important Information for a Prospective Cavalier Buyer to know ,whether the Cavalier's Parents and Grand-Parents had a Syrinx.?

I believe a Syrinx denotes SM.

SM is a Progressive Disease and will lead to Suffering for the Cavalier ,Heart-Ache and Tears ,and Financial Cost for the Cavalier Owner .

Should the PUSSY FOOTING now be Stopped by some Cavalier Breeders about the SM Meeting on the 3rd of February,and say that if a Cavalier has SM ,He or She should not be Bred from.

If they are to be Bred from ,then there will be so many Cavalier Carriers of the SM Genes, there will just be no Hope for our Cavalier Breed.

OK, the Cavalier Gene Pool will be Diminished,but the way things are going for our Beloved Cavaliers ,is the Breed just about Finished any-way.

We have Got to Face up to this Fact, and stop trying to Spin and Put a Gloss on their Health Problems.

Who will want to buy a Cavalier who will have a Great Possibility of Suffering from SM and or MVD??

Bet
 
From the parent club site:

Revised CKCS MRI screening and breeding recommendations arising from the International Syringomyelia Conference Nov 2006

These breeding recommendations are made using current information and in response to CKCS breeder request for guidelines. It has yet to be proven if this guide is appropriate. The aim of these recommendations is to reduce the incidence of symptomatic syringomyelia (SM) in the breed not to create litters of puppies guaranteed not to have SM as the chance of producing an affected dog cannot be predicted without knowing the inheritance.

Note- The age cut off at 2.5 years has been decided so as to tie in with MVD recommendations and because most dogs with symptomatic SM will show signs before 3 years of age.

The following categories from the previous guidelines have been removed because of difficulty in accurately interpreting
Previously A * - now A
Previously B - now C

It is recommended:
  1. That both the sire and the dam of a proposed mating are screened (any unscreened dog should be assumed to be "D")
  2. Offspring of any mating should also be MRI screened before breeding.
  3. Any dog screened before 2.5 years old has a second screen when older,
  4. That dogs are screened from 6 months of age
  5. That if a limited ("mini" ) MRI screen is performed that
    a) the minimum area covered is from approximately the level of the thalamus / corpus callosum to cervical vertebrae 5 (C5)
    b) Both TW1 and TW2 = sagittal images are obtained in addition to TW1 and /or TW2 transverse images through the upper cervical spinal cord.
    c) An assessment is also made for presence/absence of ear disease and ventricular enlargement.
  6. That interpretation of images is made by Diplomate level radiologists, neurologists and, in special circumstances, by orthopaedic surgeons with recognised expertise in this area.
Colour code: red = under 2.5 years blue = over 2.5 years, purple = any age CODE AGE (yrs) Syringomyelia Breed to: A Over 2.5 Absent or less than 2mm central canal dilatation in the C2-C4 region only. A, C, D C Under 2.5 Absent A
Rescan after 2.5 years. D Over 2.5 Present but asymptomatic. A E Under 2.5 Present but asymptomatic. SHOULD NOT BE BRED FROM F Any Present and symptomatic SHOULD NOT BE BRED FROM These guidelines are the current recommendations of neurologists and may be amended and re-issued as further research information becomes available.



Bet these are the current breeding recommendations - there are new ones proposed at the recent seminar in Oct


AS YOU CAN SEE, AT PRESENT DOGS OVER THE AGE OF 2.5 WITH SYRINGOMYELIA PRESENT BUT ASYMPTOMATIC [NO SYMPTOMS] ***CAN*** BE BRED FROM - THIS IS TO PREVENT FURTHER NARROWING OF THE GENE POOL.

Most responsible breeders DO NOT want to breed from dogs with syrinxes - yes it's always been important to consider the family history, not just the parents - however sadly breeders are not always honest - which is why the EBV scheme is SO important.
 
Nicki said:
From the parent club site:

Revised CKCS MRI screening and breeding recommendations arising from the International Syringomyelia Conference Nov 2006

These breeding recommendations are made using current information and in response to CKCS breeder request for guidelines. It has yet to be proven if this guide is appropriate. The aim of these recommendations is to reduce the incidence of symptomatic syringomyelia (SM) in the breed not to create litters of puppies guaranteed not to have SM as the chance of producing an affected dog cannot be predicted without knowing the inheritance.

Note- The age cut off at 2.5 years has been decided so as to tie in with MVD recommendations and because most dogs with symptomatic SM will show signs before 3 years of age.

The following categories from the previous guidelines have been removed because of difficulty in accurately interpreting
Previously A * - now A
Previously B - now C

It is recommended:
  1. That both the sire and the dam of a proposed mating are screened (any unscreened dog should be assumed to be "D")
  2. Offspring of any mating should also be MRI screened before breeding.
  3. Any dog screened before 2.5 years old has a second screen when older,
  4. That dogs are screened from 6 months of age
  5. That if a limited ("mini" ) MRI screen is performed that
    a) the minimum area covered is from approximately the level of the thalamus / corpus callosum to cervical vertebrae 5 (C5)
    b) Both TW1 and TW2 = sagittal images are obtained in addition to TW1 and /or TW2 transverse images through the upper cervical spinal cord.
    c) An assessment is also made for presence/absence of ear disease and ventricular enlargement.
  6. That interpretation of images is made by Diplomate level radiologists, neurologists and, in special circumstances, by orthopaedic surgeons with recognised expertise in this area.
Colour code: red = under 2.5 years blue = over 2.5 years, purple = any age CODE AGE (yrs) Syringomyelia Breed to: A Over 2.5 Absent or less than 2mm central canal dilatation in the C2-C4 region only. A, C, D C Under 2.5 Absent A
Rescan after 2.5 years. D Over 2.5 Present but asymptomatic. A E Under 2.5 Present but asymptomatic. SHOULD NOT BE BRED FROM F Any Present and symptomatic SHOULD NOT BE BRED FROM These guidelines are the current recommendations of neurologists and may be amended and re-issued as further research information becomes available.



Bet these are the current breeding recommendations - there are new ones proposed at the recent seminar in Oct


AS YOU CAN SEE, AT PRESENT DOGS OVER THE AGE OF 2.5 WITH SYRINGOMYELIA PRESENT BUT ASYMPTOMATIC [NO SYMPTOMS] ***CAN*** BE BRED FROM - THIS IS TO PREVENT FURTHER NARROWING OF THE GENE POOL.

Most responsible breeders DO NOT want to breed from dogs with syrinxes - yes it's always been important to consider the family history, not just the parents - however sadly breeders are not always honest - which is why the EBV scheme is SO important.
Click to expand...

KC/BVA SM SCHEME

It was Dr N. Jeffreys who told me thay a Syrinx denotes SM.

So what is worse ,Breeding from a Cavalier who has SM ,or a Smaller Gene Pool for our Cavaliers.

To take this Argument further ,will the EBV Scheme be able to give Information about who are SM and MVD Carriers in our Cavalier Breed?

Bet
 
CUnder 2.5AbsentA
Rescan after 2.5 years
Nicki. Ms Rushbridge says mate C to an A. But A is under 2.5 years old. I thought that earliest mating should be over 2.5 years. Can you help me understnd? Esther
 
espagna said:
Excuse me, I had meant to say that Ms Rushbridge says mate C to an A. But C is under 2.5 years old. I thought that earliest mating should be for both dogs to be over 2.5 years. Can you now help me understnd? Esther
Click to expand...

The guidelines that Dr Rusbridge devised allowed for the fact that some breeders were using their dogs for breeding at a young age, but the heart protocols make no such concession and the cavaliers must be free from murmur at 2.5 years or older ( & their parents should be over 5 and heart clear )

So to be breeding cavaliers that comply with both protocols both the cavaliers being used should be over 2.5 years.
 
Margaret C said:
The guidelines that Dr Rusbridge devised allowed for the fact that some breeders were using their dogs for breeding at a young age, but the heart protocols make no such concession and the cavaliers must be free from murmur at 2.5 years or older ( & their parents should be over 5 and heart clear )
So to be breeding cavaliers that comply with both protocols both the cavaliers being used should be over 2.5 years.
Click to expand...

Does this mean that Ms Rushbridge disagrees with the heart experts about the earliest age when a Cavalier should be bred? If breeders were using their dogs at a young age like you say, why do all experts have different opinions on this?"Why is it not the same? Esther
 
Nicki said:
From the parent club site:

Revised CKCS MRI screening and breeding recommendations arising from the International Syringomyelia Conference Nov 2006

These breeding recommendations are made using current information and in response to CKCS breeder request for guidelines. It has yet to be proven if this guide is appropriate. The aim of these recommendations is to reduce the incidence of symptomatic syringomyelia (SM) in the breed not to create litters of puppies guaranteed not to have SM as the chance of producing an affected dog cannot be predicted without knowing the inheritance.

Note- The age cut off at 2.5 years has been decided so as to tie in with MVD recommendations and because most dogs with symptomatic SM will show signs before 3 years of age.

The following categories from the previous guidelines have been removed because of difficulty in accurately interpreting
Previously A * - now A
Previously B - now C

It is recommended:
  1. That both the sire and the dam of a proposed mating are screened (any unscreened dog should be assumed to be "D")
  2. Offspring of any mating should also be MRI screened before breeding.
  3. Any dog screened before 2.5 years old has a second screen when older,
  4. That dogs are screened from 6 months of age
  5. That if a limited ("mini" ) MRI screen is performed that
    a) the minimum area covered is from approximately the level of the thalamus / corpus callosum to cervical vertebrae 5 (C5)
    b) Both TW1 and TW2 = sagittal images are obtained in addition to TW1 and /or TW2 transverse images through the upper cervical spinal cord.
    c) An assessment is also made for presence/absence of ear disease and ventricular enlargement.
  6. That interpretation of images is made by Diplomate level radiologists, neurologists and, in special circumstances, by orthopaedic surgeons with recognised expertise in this area.
Colour code: red = under 2.5 years blue = over 2.5 years, purple = any age CODE AGE (yrs) Syringomyelia Breed to: A Over 2.5 Absent or less than 2mm central canal dilatation in the C2-C4 region only. A, C, D C Under 2.5 Absent A
Rescan after 2.5 years. D Over 2.5 Present but asymptomatic. A E Under 2.5 Present but asymptomatic. SHOULD NOT BE BRED FROM F Any Present and symptomatic SHOULD NOT BE BRED FROM These guidelines are the current recommendations of neurologists and may be amended and re-issued as further research information becomes available.



Bet these are the current breeding recommendations - there are new ones proposed at the recent seminar in Oct


AS YOU CAN SEE, AT PRESENT DOGS OVER THE AGE OF 2.5 WITH SYRINGOMYELIA PRESENT BUT ASYMPTOMATIC [NO SYMPTOMS] ***CAN*** BE BRED FROM - THIS IS TO PREVENT FURTHER NARROWING OF THE GENE POOL.

Most responsible breeders DO NOT want to breed from dogs with syrinxes - yes it's always been important to consider the family history, not just the parents - however sadly breeders are not always honest - which is why the EBV scheme is SO important.
Click to expand...

KC/BVA SM SCHEME

I was not able to get access to the Information from the October SM Seminar ,but my Computer Doctor came to my Aid to-day.

What I Read has really Shocked me.

What has stuck in my Mind ,is the Mention that in a Population of 804 Cavaliers to Establish the Incidence of SM ,the life-time Risk of Developing SM in the Study Population .

It was concluded that SM is likely one of the MOST COMMON DISEASE CONDITIONS of the CKCS.

What also was Mentioned was that...

For Breeding ..... Both Parents be Free of SM at 2.5 years of Age .

The TRUE SM Status of the Grand-Parents at least 5 years of Age Be Established.

Surely this Must give a Lie to what is being put about by some Cavalier Breeders, that the BVA/KC MRI SM SCHEME Meeting to be held on the 3rd of February, there is not enough Evidence about SM to be going ahead with the Scheme ,when with the Evidence that is now known about SM, could be going to finish the Cavalier Breed off
completely

Bet

Bet
 
espagna said:
Does this mean that Ms Rushbridge disagrees with the heart experts about the earliest age when a Cavalier should be bred? If breeders were using their dogs at a young age like you say, why do all experts have different opinions on this?"Why is it not the same? Esther
Click to expand...

No, it does not mean that, and I really don't know how you can draw that conclusion from what I have written?.

Experts are only experts in their own field of work. I would not expect an orthopaedic surgeon to have opinions about treating diabetes.

Years ago specialists in cardiology recommended that to eliminate early onset MVD breeders should wait until cavaliers were 2.5 years old and clear of heart murmur. The parents should be at least 5 years old and murmur free.

Quite a few years later Dr Rusbridge devised interim guidelines for a neurological condition.
She set the age at 2.5 years, because that fitted in with what breeders should already be doing, and it was an age that she believed should help eliminate early onset syringomyelia.

She recognised that many dogs were in fact bred younger than this ( because she was in contact with breeders that advised her on the realities of the situation ) and to address this she recommended that those young dogs should never be mated together but only to an older, Grade A mate.
 
Margaret C said:
No, it does not mean that, and I really don't know how you can draw that conclusion from what I have written?.

Margaret C. Ms Carter, my thinking was arrived at from what Ms Rushbridge said, not yourself. I think for the Cavalier it would be a better thing if all the experts could talk together and try not confuse people with 2 for one thing , 2.5 for another. Esther
Click to expand...
 
Esther, you yourself must be confused or maybe have not actually followed the development of these guidelines or read what Dr Rusbridge or Margaret Carter have long stated (Clare Rusbridge's information on the breeding guidelines is carefully explained on her own website?) and perhaps are not too familiar with the history of the MVD protocol either? I have never seen any disagreement in seven years. Where does it advise 2 for one thing, 2.5 for another?And given how many breeders breed at 9 months or 15 months -- isn;t that the far more serious concern? :sl*p:

But for the point to hand:

Clare Rusbridge's own statement from the original proposed SM guidelines for breeding dogs through to the guidelines that were passed by the group of neurologists at the first London SM Symposium are absolutely clear that the age for scanning was chosen to fit with the MVD protocol. From the agreed guidelines in 2006, a point that has remained on every version of the guidelines to date.

Notes
The age cut off at 2.5years has been decided so as to tie in with MVD recommendations (see below) and because most
dogs with symptomatic SM will show signs before 3 years of age.
Click to expand...

But it also allows for a C grade to be given to dogs scanned at under 2.5 and says if used, they should only be bred to A dogs. That is the best advice to fit the *reality* that some breeders are totally ignoring the MVD protocol and breeding dogs too young. It advises that such dogs be rescanned at 2.5.

It isn't ideal --nor is 2.5 ideal for MVD because it is a progressive disease. Progressive diseases develop over time and the younger the dog, the more risky it is to rely on assumptions about their health or tests done while they are too young to really mean anything.

If you are familiar at all with the minutes from the original international meeting at which the MVD protocol was approved (you will find them on Cavalierhealth.org), you will know that many experts felt later was better and that 2.5 was still too young. But many felt a compromise needed to be reached. Still, this is why dogs shouldn't be bred until 5 unless the heart status of both parents at 5 is known, and clear. But some breeders regularly fudge this inconvenient part of the protocol.

I think the point of confusion is that Dr Rusbridge recognised what is obvious from the puppy registrations by club breeders -- that MANY are using dogs well under 2.5 and therefore if scanning, might assume a clear scan at this young age gave them an A dog. This is of course not the case BUT the guidelines recognise that this might happen. The guidelines are constructed to allow that a dog might be scanned young BUT that this does not give the dog an equivalent grade that would be given if the dog were of the age to fit into the actual SM and MVD recommended breeding guidelines.

You can read the minutes form this meeting and the guidelines HERE.

Which 'experts' are you talking about? And in any case, why would it matter if there were some disagreement -- surely you yourself have sought a second opinion before on some issue? Not every researcher holds the same opinion which is good as that means many more hypothesis are explored in the course of research. But there is now wide general agreement on many aspects of SM and breeding because increasing evidence and clinical data is showing that the protocols do produce results. Not certainty: but far better results than breeding unscanned dogs and hoping for the best.

It is funny how on the one hand some breeders argue that all the researchers agree and won't consider any other point of view -- while others then criticise any element of perceived disagreement. Meanwhile breeders argue openly about all sorts of aspects of breeding protocols and many of those arguing are those who breed underaged dogs, especially studs. The evidence is right there in the puppy registrations each year.

Given that you claimed originally, and rather laughably, to be in Barcelona, Spain yet your IP addresses always identify you as using a UK ISP, I think we can conclude you are not who you say you are and thus -- you can return to talking over with the other breeders. (y)
 
espagna said:
Margaret C said:
No, it does not mean that, and I really don't know how you can draw that conclusion from what I have written?.

Margaret C. Ms Carter, my thinking was arrived at from what Ms Rushbridge said, not yourself. I think for the Cavalier it would be a better thing if all the experts could talk together and try not confuse people with 2 for one thing , 2.5 for another. Esther
Click to expand...

Sorry, it was the fact you quoted something I had written that confused the issue.

If I understand rightly the two years you mention is an American cavalier club invention for a watered down heart protocol. I don't think Dr Rusbridge had any input there.

Do you really think that breeders are so stupid that they get confused by slightly different ages within testing protocols?
Click to expand...
 
Margaret C said:
espagna said:
Sorry, it was the fact you quoted something I had written that confused the issue.

If I understand rightly the two years you mention is an American cavalier club invention for a watered down heart protocol. I don't think Dr Rusbridge had any input there.

Do you really think that breeders are so stupid that they get confused by slightly different ages within testing protocols?
Click to expand...

KC/BVA SM SCHEME

Thanks Karlin and Margaret for your Posts.

I Have never seen the age 2 years given for Breeding Guidelines for MVD , they were Introduced by the UK CKCS CLUB in 1987.It was 2.5 Years.

This was after Dr P.Darke , the UK CKCS CLUB'S Cardiologist carried out Surveys at Cavalier Shows in 1983 and warned the Cavalier Breeders about how Wide-Spread the MVD Problem was in Cavaliers, and this would be CKCS CLUB MEMBERS' Cavaliers.

What a Pity this Warning was never Heeded by so many Cavalier Breeders ,because now 50% of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur 5-6 Years of Age. ,,and there are now Many Cavalier Carriers of the MVD Genes.

This same warning is being given by Dr Clare Rusbridge about the SM Problem in our Cavalier Breed.

I am Quoting from her SM Seminar in October 2010

" In a Population of 804 Cavaliers to Establish the INCIDENCE of SM .

The Life-Time Risk of Developing SM in the Study Population was Estimated .

It is Concluded that SM is Likely to be one of the Most Common Disease Conditions of CKCS."

I have never forgotten Hearing the wee Cavalier Screaming in Pain in the PDE TV Program because of SM ,it was Heart -Breaking to Listen to.

Why are some Cavalier Breeders so intent on not wanting the KC/BVA SM SCHEME to be going ahead, so that other Cavaliers won't have to be Screaming in Pain like that Cavalier ,and other Cavaliers not need to be being given Pain Killing Medication to be able to help them to keep their Pain Thresh-hold from SM under Control.

For a Lover of Cavaliers, I can only say .

WHAT A SELFISH BUNCH some CAVALIER BREEDERS ARE.!!!!

Are they Putting their EGOS and the Fear of Losing Income by not wanting this MRI Scanning Scheme to go Ahead,instead of Thinking about the Benefit it could give to those Cavaliers who in the Future will have to be Suffering from SM by not giving them the chance of this MRI Scanning Scheme going ahead.

Will it be being said in the Future that by the Actions of some of those Uncaring Cavalier Breeders in Thwarting this
Schme from going ahead.

THEY HAVE BEEN THE PROBLEM AND NOT THE SOLUTION of SM in our Beloved Cavaliers.

Bet
Click to expand...
 
The only mention I have ever seen of 2 years as a minimum age for testing was as Margaret says, from the CKCSC in the US recently when they downgraded the protocol -- in other words, BREEDERS THEMSELVES are the ones who cannot agree and are twisting around 'official' protocols (as Rod has said, protocols are either followed or they are not. Lowering the breeding age to two means the club is recommending breeders NOT follow the long-standing MVD protocol any longer). This has nothing, of course, to do with advice from researchers or cardiologists -- it has everything to do with breeders wanting to breed their dogs at a younger age. So the concern about 'researchers not agreeing' is actually an issue of breeders changing guidelines for their own selfish purposes.

It is odd how narrow-minded and self-focused and ill-informed some people are that they can twist around a stupid decision made not just by breeders but by a national breed club executive committee and blame it on health professionals. :rolleyes: No better evidence of the frantic attempt to discredit researchers.

It would certainly help breeders if their own breed clubs could agree on health protocols, post the information so many breeders are seeking on these health conditions to their websites rather than keep the people actually breeding these dogs in the dark, and lead rather than bamboozle.
 
Karlin said:
The only mention I have ever seen of 2 years as a minimum age for testing was as Margaret says, from the CKCSC in the US recently when they downgraded the protocol -- in other words, BREEDERS THEMSELVES are the ones who cannot agree and are twisting around 'official' protocols (as Rod has said, protocols are either followed or they are not. Lowering the breeding age to two means the club is recommending breeders NOT follow the long-standing MVD protocol any longer). This has nothing, of course, to do with advice from researchers or cardiologists -- it has everything to do with breeders wanting to breed their dogs at a younger age. So the concern about 'researchers not agreeing' is actually an issue of breeders changing guidelines for their own selfish purposes.

It is odd how narrow-minded and self-focused and ill-informed some people are that they can twist around a stupid decision made not just by breeders but by a national breed club executive committee and blame it on health professionals. :rolleyes: No better evidence of the frantic attempt to discredit researchers.

It would certainly help breeders if their own breed clubs could agree on health protocols, post the information so many breeders are seeking on these health conditions to their websites rather than keep the people actually breeding these dogs in the dark, and lead rather than bamboozle.
Click to expand...


KC /BVA SM SCHEME

I just cannot understand the reason for some Cavalier Breeders trying to put Obstacles in the way of the MRI Scanning Scheme going ahead.

Are there other Cavalier Lovers like me bewildered by their attitude?

There is now enough evidence from the Researchers into the SM Condition who are giving the advice to Cavalier Breeders on the Breeding Policy on how to try and combat this Terrible Disease.

Instead what do we find, some Vociferous Cavalier Breeders trying to influence the Cavalier World with their views, which seems like they are giving the impression that they know better than what the Researchers do about this Insidious Condition in our Cavalier Breed and what to do about it.

What Illusions of Grandeur they must have of themselves.

Have they no thought about the Cavaliers Screaming in Pain and on Medication for Life to control their Pain from SM?

Those Few Selfish ,Big -Headed Cavalier Breeders have no right to be trying to stop the Advice from the Researches with their Paltry Excuses as to why the Advice should not be being followed and trying to Influence other Cavalier Folk to believe in their Propaganda about the MRI Scanning Scheme.

If those Few Breeders do not like what is happening , let them get out of Cavaliers ,and leave it to the other Cavalier Breeders who believe that the MRI Scanning Scheme is the way forward to save our Cavaliers from years of Pain and their Owners from the Tears and Heart-Ache of having to watch their Beloved Cavaliers suffering from SM.

Bet
 
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