Cavaliers - More Denial and Dissent

Margaret.... keep up the good work

This is sooooo important to keep bringing attention to this issue. Thank you thank you thank you.

Cavaliers-more denial and dissent

Margaret C said:

http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/

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CAVALIERS-MORE DENIAL AND DISSENT

THANK YOU JEMIMA HARRISON for what you have said in your Blog about wondering how this Sweet ,Gorgeous ,Health -Beleagured little Breed has ended up in the Hands of Some of the Most Poisonous Self-Serving People in Dogdom.

She mentions that Some Influential Breeders apparently find it unacceptable that the Results of Dogs Scanned under the New Official SM Screening Program SHOULD BE MADE PUBLIC.

She further says that if this Rotten Core of Breeders gets it's way,the only fact that the Dog has been MRI Scanned will be made Public.

This List has been on the UK CKCS CLUB'S WEB SITE for years.

In the Blog ,it mentions also that we who are trying to get our Beloved Cavaliers the Chance of Healthier , Longer Lives ,are seen as the BLOODY ENEMY.

I can VOUCH for That .

HI

Is this not a repeat of what happened before with the "NASTIES" excluding their own health representative and dominating everyone ,why don't the fair minded club members ,of which there are many ,stand up to these horrible people ,why does the Kennel Club bow to these few when with every other breed all results are open and are there for everyone to see.Why do such lovely animals like Cavaliers attract such vindictive people and what are therer aims , extinction of the Cavalier breed ,what have these breeders got to hide by denying transparency and why ,is there anything we pet owners can do to help.

Bet said:

CAVALIERS-MORE DENIAL AND DISSENT

She mentions that Some Influential Breeders apparently find it unacceptable that the Results of Dogs Scanned under the New Official SM Screening Program SHOULD BE MADE PUBLIC.

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They should hang their heads in shame.

Cavaliers-more denial and dissent

Tania said:

They should hang their heads in shame.

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CAVALIERS -MORE DENIAL AND DISSENT.

Some Cavalier Breeders seem to be under the Impression that Jemima Harrison is blaming All Cavalier Breeders for the Mess the Cavalier Breed is in with their SM and MVD Health Problems.

That is not the case.

As Jemima Harrison so eloquently mentions in her Recent Blog,that the Cavalier Breed has ended up in the Hands of the Most Poisonous Self -Serving People in Dogdom .

She goes onto mention ,that it is a Rotten Core of Cavalier Breeders, note NOT ALL CAVALIER BREEDERS, that if this Rotten Core of Cavalier Breeders get their way about Hindering the Progress of the MRI Scanning Scheme,then it is this Rotten Core who are Playing Fast and Loose with the Future of our Cavalier Breed.

Why should they be being allowed to do this ?

They are not the Cavalier Breed and must stop their Childish Antics of putting the Final Nail in the Coffin of the Researchers trying to Save our Beloved Cavaliers with all their Futile Excuses.

Bet

Cavaliers -more denial and dissent

Bet said:

CAVALIERS -MORE DENIAL AND DISSENT.

Some Cavalier Breeders seem to be under the Impression that Jemima Harrison is blaming All Cavalier Breeders for the Mess the Cavalier Breed is in with their SM and MVD Health Problems.

That is not the case.

As Jemima Harrison so eloquently mentions in her Recent Blog,that the Cavalier Breed has ended up in the Hands of the Most Poisonous Self -Serving People in Dogdom .

She goes onto mention ,that it is a Rotten Core of Cavalier Breeders, note NOT ALL CAVALIER BREEDERS, that if this Rotten Core of Cavalier Breeders get their way about Hindering the Progress of the MRI Scanning Scheme,then it is this Rotten Core who are Playing Fast and Loose with the Future of our Cavalier Breed.

Why should they be being allowed to do this ?

They are not the Cavalier Breed and must stop their Childish Antics of putting the Final Nail in the Coffin of the Researchers trying to Save our Beloved Cavaliers with all their Futile Excuses.

Bet

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CAVALIERS -MORE DENIAL AND DISSENT

Forgot to say in my Previous Post ,that this is not about Cavalier Puppy Farmers and BY Breeders , who are trying to Stop the MRI Scanning Scheme from going ahead ,but they are as Jemima Harrison said, a Rotten Core Of Cavalier Breeders who are involved in this Shameful Exercise.

The Puppy Farmers probably won't even know what is going on here in Britain at the moment.

Bet

I am confused by the PDE blog entry. It states:

The latest news on the Cavalier front, reported in Dog World this week, is that some influential breeders apparently find it unacceptable that the results of dogs scanned under the new official syringomyelia (SM) screening programme should be made public. Worse, it seems that the Kennel Club has given in to them.

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I checked the Dog World hyperlink on the blog -- http://www.dogworld.co.uk/News/06-Cavalier.aspx -- and all it says is this:

Cavalier clubs meet to discuss health issues

REPRESENTATIVES of all the Cavalier clubs were present at a recent meeting to discuss the breed’s health issues.
The meeting, at the Kennel Club building at Stoneleigh, was led by KC geneticist Jeff Sampson, Mike Herrtage of Cambridge Veterinary School, and Dr Sarah Blott and Dr Tom Lewis of the Animal Health Trust; the latter two are compiling estimated breeding values (EBVs) for all Cavaliers in the UK.

The aim of EBVs is to allow breeders to select against health problems such as mitral valve disease and syringomyelia (SM), while safeguarding the long-term health of the breed by maintaining genetic diversity. In order to do this, a huge amount of health data – including heart test results and results of MRI scans for signs of SM – need to be collected and the pedigree of the dogs known.

A proposal for the way in which the KC could record and publish results was suggested to those at the meeting on Thursday of last week, and it was agreed that this would be taken back to the clubs, the KC and the British Veterinary Association (BVA) for discussion ‘and hopefully approval’, a KC spokesman said.

“The need for a proposal arose because it was clear that there was a need to encourage participation in the new scheme and aid speedy data collection,” she said. “Simply following the way in which other BVA/KC scheme data is recorded and published is unlikely to achieve this at this time.”

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Now, what I cannot figure out is where in that Dog World article there is anything remotely implying what the blog entry attributes to it, when the blog states:

...some influential breeders apparently find it unacceptable that the results of dogs scanned under the new official syringomyelia (SM) screening programme should be made public. Worse, it seems that the Kennel Club has given in to them.

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Can someone help me out here?

Cavaliers-more denial and dissent

RodRussell said:

I am confused by the PDE blog entry. It states:



I checked the Dog World hyperlink on the blog -- http://www.dogworld.co.uk/News/06-Cavalier.aspx -- and all it says is this:



Now, what I cannot figure out is where in that Dog World article there is anything remotely implying what the blog entry attributes to it, when the blog states:



Can someone help me out here?

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CAVALIERS -MORE DENIAL AND DISSENT.

Rod ,

What it is all about ,this appeared on the CKCS CLUB WEB SITE, that the KC want to Publish the Results of the MRI Scans , those few Elderly Cavalier Breeders who have Ruled the Roost in the Cavalier Breed for Many Years ,think that they have the right for this Information not to be made Public .

Also, unfortunately there seems to be an Anti Feeling against Dr Rusbridge , I don't know why , surely the reason cannot be that she has brought the SM Problem in Cavaliers to the Fore.

If it had not been for the PDE TV Program ,would the Cavalier Buying Public ever have found out about the SM Problem in our Breed.

Bet

RodRussell said:

Now, what I cannot figure out is where in that Dog World article there is anything remotely implying what the blog entry attributes to it, when the blog states:



Can someone help me out here?

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I agree that reading the Dog World article it would be hard to know just why the proposal to change the way that this particular BVA/KC Scheme is recorded is thought necessary.

I think that you may need to read the actual points of the proposal on the Cavalier Club website www.thecavalierclub.co.uk

Point 3........... Neither CM or SM grades will be published, nor will they be accessible via the Health Test Result Finder.


This is contrary to every other official scheme, they are open registries, and there can only be one reason for the KC making that proposal.

A lot of things are unsaid, after all no breeder is openly going to admit he does not want other breeders and puppy buyers to know for sure he has not MRI'd his stud dog.
It would be even worse for people to know that he has scanned his champion dog but now refuses to divulge the results.

I think even this concession will not be enough for the Cavalier breeders that now act as the voice of cavalier club members in the UK, although they will not come out and say what everyone knows is the true objection to the scheme.

The latest fairly feeble excuse is the fact that some scans will not meet the criteria for the new scheme, a fact that has been known for a very long time.

It is true that there will be some cavaliers that have been scanned, perhaps more than once, & I understand that it will be galling if the KC health finder then brings up a message that no result is recorded.

I'm sure that this can be easily sorted, all that is needed is for the health liaison chairman to talk to the KC and suggest that the words " no results recorded under this current scheme" should show up instead if a copy of an old scan certificate is submitted.

I'm equally sure that some other objection to the scheme will suddenly become apparent.

I would like to think that some of the silent majority of decent responsible breeders are writing to the KC & BVA to let them know what they really want.

I am not very familiar with the show scene or breeding so forgive my ignorance but I want to understand.

First I wish they had a medal or award of recognition for top cavalier breeder for health but that will not happen. Let's say there is the optimal breeder doing everything they can but given the health problems it is fair to say one may develop or probably will have SM. Now they don't breed that cavalier b/c they are a great breeder but the cavalier has "show" quality. I know some people want champions for breeding purposes maybe but there are also those that have said they like the competition.

Is it correct that a cavalier can not be spayed or neutored to compete in shows? What if that one breeder spayed the female because she would not be good for breeding, why would this be an issue for competition? If there is a champion that has SM (no symptoms but never sired) is that a problem?

It seems like they should change having to be able to breed to compete or whatever. I know it may not be that simple. I know dog shows have puppy competitions etc. And if that great breeder did what was asked for protocols they would not be breeding until after 2 1/2 or even later and that sm cavalier could be a champion. Why does that have to play a role in competition and shows IF they never sired or had a litter or whatever you call it. Maybe that should change and allow for non breeding dogs.

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Also I have heard on this forum, some breeders would give away a cavalier to an unknowing pet owner b/c of a health condition. Now this hypothetical breeder would never do that so why deny this cavalier they have of competing if they spay them?

If they allow for spayed neutered cavaliers to compete then disregard this suggestion. I personally think, that would be a great example and a TRUE champion breeder. One that waits, does not breed the most healthy cavaliers, but also has a love of competing and showing. They may also produce the most healthy cavalier also to breed. One is not a better champion in my eyes. However, I have a cavalier with SM. Keep in mind this is the breeder that is breeding for health first.

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anniemac said:

Also I have heard on this forum, some breeders would give away a cavalier to an unknowing pet owner b/c of a health condition.

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Yes, and in some cases threaten the new owners with legal proceedings when it becomes apparent that the rehomed dog had more than an 'ear infection'

anniemac said:

I personally think, that would be a great example and a TRUE champion breeder. One that waits, does not breed the most healthy cavaliers, but also has a love of competing and showing. They may also produce the most healthy cavalier also to breed. One is not a better champion in my eyes. However, I have a cavalier with SM. Keep in mind this is the breeder that is breeding for health first.

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It is difficult to breed top winning show dogs.
When you factor in the difficulty of trying to breed dogs that do not have parents with SM or MVD ( and grandparents free of MVD ) then you seriously reduce the choice of breeding cavaliers and the chance of getting that top class puppy.

This is why really competitive breeders are reluctant to scan. There is a 50% chance they will get a bad result. They do not want to remove winning dogs & bitches from their breeding programmes because that affects their chance of winning next year's prizes.
Puppies from top winning parents sell for big money to others that want to win.

There are a few breeders such as you describe, breeding for health & show.
They are remarkable people.

Margaret C said:

I agree that reading the Dog World article it would be hard to know just why the proposal to change the way that this particular BVA/KC Scheme is recorded is thought necessary.

I think that you may need to read the actual points of the proposal on the Cavalier Club website www.thecavalierclub.co.uk ...

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The problem I have with that PDE blog entry is that it leaves its author open to tangential attack by opponents because the blog is misleading. When you give the opposition the opportunity to question your credibility because of a gap between what you assert the Dog World article says and what it actually says, you allow that opposition to re-frame the issue, and you, the blogger, become the focus of attack on the grounds of inaccuracy, and therefore, lack of credibility. You also leave readers scratching their heads trying to figure out what you are complaining about, when they go to the Dog World and cannot find anything remotely related to what you claim is to be found there.

I read my quote. I meant to say only breed healthy cavaliers.

I don't understand what cavalier fits a standard. However, I know you can only tell one has SM from an MRI. I know there is a demand for true cm/SM clear plus heart clear etc.

Now those should stay with breeders that are the top ones for health and why can't their offspring go for a higher price?

I'm sure they do and I may live in a simple world b/c I'm just trying to understand. I just feel that if those breeders are recognized, then maybe some will follow.

Wouldn't it be good at Westminster to tribute one of those desired breeders for health.

What is it, an A to A still has a 25% chance of offspring with SM. I am sure those champions could bring in $ for breeders who are not wanting to follow protocols and reducing the amount of puppies to sell is an issue maybe for some.

Try and try to breed for health, but the ones not used for breeding b/c they may have CM whatever should be sitting high and tall looking down on the other "champions" that are fitting what you describe as money producers in their own higher ring.

I just don't ever want to lose the temperament of a cavalier spirit

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I am off topic but those really good breeders probably just want a good home. There are some but they are the ones not in it for $.



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anniemac said:

I am off topic but those really good breeders probably just want a good home. There are some but they are the ones not in it for $.



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Not quite sure what you are talking about here?........

If it is the breeders that place as much importance on health as showing, yes they do want good homes, but they are also competitive and want to win.
They are good breeders because they put the interests of their dogs first.

If you are talking about those that give away sick dogs, perhaps they are just hoping for a good home for their dog, but this is not the best way to get it.

Do they have the right to foist a dog that they know is sick on someone that does not know what it will cost them in money and emotional distress?
I really don't think so.

They also cannot suppose they are securing the sick dog a permanent home. Someone who has taken on a dog that does not turn out to be the active happy little dog they thought they were taking into their family may easily pass it on again.

I was talking about ones that place importance on health as showing. They would not be the ones wanting the best interest of cavalier health and home. I would imagine spending more on health, breeding for health not profit. Not in it for $ like the ones you were saying want champions to breed w/o concern for health but in order to make $.

You said they are few but probably those few care about the welfare and would want good homes for those they breed. Like people who are health oriented. If I cared so much about health and future of the breed and decided to take on breeding (would never), I would be picky about placing them and would want to breed for a different reason than to make $.

Does that make sense?

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I say things wrong, would want good home. This is completely different direction of thread.

I was just interested in can cavaliers with SM still be viewed in a positive light if they were known to have SM and stilled showed but never breed?



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People need to be open. It is a huge issue and denial or hiding the fact does not help.

No matter what one does A to A there is still a chance. Maybe those that do know that and would have no problem being open. Just wondering why or how people can make it more accepted to publish results

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