Should the ckcs club now publish a list of ckcs club members who are breeders?

I'm not going to stick up for anyone here. All I did a few posts ago was say there was a form that breeders could fill in to put their pups on the puppy register, and that it had a section for health tests.

I was trying to be helpful, yet I feel that you are all blaming me because you don't like the system - I haven't got anything to do with it - honest.

I'll shut up from now on.

I still think it's ultimately up to the buyer to ask relevant questions though. You can't spoon feed everyone. And if a breeder is rude to you Bet, then they have lost a sale and you can put the phone down.

Davecav said:

I'm not going to stick up for anyone here. All I did a few posts ago was say there was a form that breeders could fill in to put their pups on the puppy register, and that it had a section for health tests.

I was trying to be helpful, yet I feel that you are all blaming me because you don't like the system - I haven't got anything to do with it - honest.

I'll shut up from now on.

I still think it's ultimately up to the buyer to ask relevant questions though. You can't spoon feed everyone. And if a breeder is rude to you Bet, then they have lost a sale and you can put the phone down.

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Sorry if you have been made to feel you are being blamed for something. I certainly did not mean to give that impression. I appreciate the fact you bring a different view to the discussion.

I think most people that buy their first puppy do not do enough homework, simply because they don't realise there is homework they should do.

Most first time buyers do not know that in exchange for knowing the size, the appearance, and the temperament of a pedigree dog you will get increased levels of inherited illness that vary according to the breed of dog you choose.

I agree you can't spoon feed everyone, especially the poor innocents who only get as far as the internet sites of the puppy farmers, but anyone seeking information from a breed club, or a breed club member, cannot be blamed for believing they will get the full information they need to make informed decisions on the puppy they buy.

If they cannot get the best and most honest advice from a breed club, then where would it come from?

Margaret C said:

I think most people that buy their first puppy do not do enough homework, simply because they don't realise there is homework they should do.

Most first time buyers do not know that in exchange for knowing the size, the appearance, and the temperament of a pedigree dog you will get increased levels of inherited illness that vary according to the breed of dog you choose.

I agree you can't spoon feed everyone, especially the poor innocents who only get as far as the internet sites of the puppy farmers, but anyone seeking information from a breed club, or a breed club member, cannot be blamed for believing they will get the full information they need to make informed decisions on the puppy they buy.

If they cannot get the best and most honest advice from a breed club, then where would it come from?

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Margaret, those are some good points. I tend to agree with Dave about the spoon feeding bit, but I've just realized that I have the viewpoint of a very long-time, experienced pet owner. Hadn't thought about the point of view of a first time puppy owner.

Pat

Margaret C said:

... If they cannot get the best and most honest advice from a breed club, then where would it come from?

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Well, I can think of one website (actually, four or five websites), but the only reason those sites exist is because the CKCS club sites often avoid the truth. I think the UK club's site is the best in terms of providing information about the genetic health problems of the breed.

But when both USA national clubs knowingly and intentionally reject both the MVD breeding protocol and the SM breeding protocol, it is the independent sites that must fill that void.

When I got ella, I assumed that being from a recommended breeder on a national site that meant she was ok. Call me what you want but the I commend someone that can figure all this out before because I'm still trying. Ella was my first and I'm still learning, but most people I know have not been involved with cavaliers or even have any idea of clubs etc.

Pat I am glad you said that because there are breeders, pet owners etc. That have been around cavaliers for a long time so it becomes second nature. People have to start somewhere and for me to go onto two national usa clubs and have a hard time finding mvd protocols or anything but breeders may scan etc. Especially something like mvd protocol which has been around for sometime. If you can figure it out, please tell me because Its hard. Yes I am being spoon fed and if I have been around cavaliers a long time, it would seem like common sense to ask for certificates. However, I simply relied on a breeder being referred on a national club as meaning they did all the health testing and followed protocols. (Which she did) didn't scan but even now that is not something a lot do on the website due to cost etc.

I can see how davecav was trying to help and getting frustrated but I can only say that if they actually have protocols and breeding guidelines on the site, that's a whole bunch more than we have.



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Rod your reply was faster. Yes we all know what site you are referring to.

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Margaret C said:

Sorry if you have been made to feel you are being blamed for something. I certainly did not mean to give that impression. I appreciate the fact you bring a different view to the discussion.

I think most people that buy their first puppy do not do enough homework, simply because they don't realise there is homework they should do.

Most first time buyers do not know that in exchange for knowing the size, the appearance, and the temperament of a pedigree dog you will get increased levels of inherited illness that vary according to the breed of dog you choose.

I agree you can't spoon feed everyone, especially the poor innocents who only get as far as the internet sites of the puppy farmers, but anyone seeking information from a breed club, or a breed club member, cannot be blamed for believing they will get the full information they need to make informed decisions on the puppy they buy.

If they cannot get the best and most honest advice from a breed club, then where would it come from?

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Thanks Margaret, it's alright. It was my fault really as I found I was being drawn into a discussion where I found I was inadvertently defending something that when I think about it, does have flaws.
However it is going in the right direction.

What Pat pointed out is a good point. I too have had cavaliers for a number of years and was brought up with shetland sheepdogs, so have had pedigree dogs all my life. I suppose by osmosis I have soaked in many of the do's and don'ts as I grew up, and have forgotten, or in fact never thought that there are first time dog buyers out there who are complete novices. (oh dear I can see where some of you are coming from)
There are some good breeders who will bend over backwards to help new owners; but there are others who will give an equally good impression to niaive first time buyers who haven't done their homework!
I still stick with my view that it is up to the buyer to try and find out as much as they can about the breed before taking the plunge. There will always be a dodgy breeders, just as there are dodgy car dealers! It isn't a perfect world.

Margaret C said:

I think most people that buy their first puppy do not do enough homework, simply because they don't realise there is homework they should do.

Most first time buyers do not know that in exchange for knowing the size, the appearance, and the temperament of a pedigree dog you will get increased levels of inherited illness that vary according to the breed of dog you choose.

I agree you can't spoon feed everyone, especially the poor innocents who only get as far as the internet sites of the puppy farmers, but anyone seeking information from a breed club, or a breed club member, cannot be blamed for believing they will get the full information they need to make informed decisions on the puppy they buy.

If they cannot get the best and most honest advice from a breed club, then where would it come from?

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Exactly my point, thank you Margaret, you have put it much more succinctly than I.

When a litter database is set up it should aim to be 'end user friendly' (yes I hate these terms too!), should be accessible and easy to understand by the puppy buyer as they may have little or no knowledge of the breed and have even less about breeders, good or bad.

It should also encourage 'best practise' on the part of members and also be easy for the breeder to complete online. While at the same time preventing litter entries which are not the standard expected ie those whose sire and dam are NOT health tested or non club member breeders. Health testing may not be mandatory but it should be best practice and only breeders litters who conform to that standard should be included. The database should also prevent abuse by any committee member (re my point about a coordinator giving out a breeder pal's info! Which has been known to happen).

I understand that most first time buyers today look online for information first, the more educated will google search breed clubs for information and litters for a specific breed.

Davecav
Often people take a discussion personally which distracts from positive input and shifts the focus of the discussion, the debate is (and should be) of policies and agendas. If you raise a point it will be debated, for good or bad from various points of view, there's nothing personal in it.

I'm not a cavalier owner but have bred dogs in the past, though not cavaliers; I have no agenda personal or otherwise. However as a rescue coordinator who has to pick up the pieces of bad breeding, I do have very strong views about health and temperament testing in any breed.

Hi Fifer

Nothing personal taken what you suggest sounds good, but I'm not a wizz with computers, and don't know how easy it is to set up something on the lines you say. I'm not taking sides here, honest, but just wonder whether a basic site like the cavalier club one looks would be up to what you are thinking of, and if not - what the costs are of getting something like this and it's upkeep?

Also I don't know how many club members use the site to advertise their pups? If it's only a handful, then it probably won't warrent the outlay and management of it, especially if it needs speicalist knowledge.
I'm not a club member, though there must be members on here who might know.

Should the ckcs club now publish a list of ckcs club members who are breeders.

Davecav said:

I'm not going to stick up for anyone here. All I did a few posts ago was say there was a form that breeders could fill in to put their pups on the puppy register, and that it had a section for health tests.

I was trying to be helpful, yet I feel that you are all blaming me because you don't like the system - I haven't got anything to do with it - honest.

I'll shut up from now on.

I still think it's ultimately up to the buyer to ask relevant questions though. You can't spoon feed everyone. And if a breeder is rude to you Bet, then they have lost a sale and you can put the phone down.

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CAN THE CKCS CLUB NOW PUBLISH A LIST OF CKCS CLUB MEMBERS WHO ARE BREEDERS?


Davecav,

I am sorry you mis-understood my Post, I was not looking for a Cavalier from a CLUB BREEDER ,it was because I was involved as Cavalier Breed Advisor with the Dogs Today magazine and got a List of Cavalier Puppies available from the UK CKCS CLUB, that when any-one phoned me looking for a Cavalier Puppy ,it would safe enough to put them onto a CKCS CLUB BREEDER, and to ask if the Cavalier 's Sire and Dam had been Heart Tested.

Unfortunately I learned how wrong I was in thinking that!!!

Now that this discussion is taking place and the CKCS CLUB'S CHAMPIONSHIP SHOW is taking place on Saturday, and no doubt there will be a Health Stall at it, any-body going to it, and to the Cavalier Stall next week at CRUFTS, and ask this Question.

Why is there not a LIST PUBLISHED by the CKCS CLUB of PUPPIES avaliable from CAVALIER BREEDERS Who are CLUB MEMBERS ,who have Have Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guidelines for those Available Cavalier Puppies. ?

If any-one is going to the CKCS CHAMPIONSHIP SHOW or CRUFTS and asks this Question at the Cavalier Stalls ,perhaps they would put on our List here what the answer was that they were given.

Bet

Davecav said:

Hi Fifer

Nothing personal taken what you suggest sounds good, but I'm not a wizz with computers, and don't know how easy it is to set up something on the lines you say. I'm not taking sides here, honest, but just wonder whether a basic site like the cavalier club one looks would be up to what you are thinking of, and if not - what the costs are of getting something like this and it's upkeep?

Also I don't know how many club members use the site to advertise their pups? If it's only a handful, then it probably won't warrent the outlay and management of it, especially if it needs speicalist knowledge.
I'm not a club member, though there must be members on here who might know.

Click to expand...

I'm no computer whizz kid either :shock: I have to look at myself in the mirror every morning!

It is relatively simple for anyone with spreadsheet and basic website knowledge to install an online form. It costs nothing for the google docs bit of the equation you just need to register for google docs. The link to the google docs form is copied and pasted onto the existing website (I did need a little help from the creator with that! ) and that is basically the form installed.

First you would need a list of the data you wish to collect. Setting up the spreadsheet to meet the criteria you want is probably the most difficult bit, particularly where fields are compulsory ie must have an entry which equates to say a certain number or "rule" like a health certificate number. I lost my way with that and :blabla: phoned a friend who is excellent on spreadsheets! However the process is simple, cheap and saves heaps of time and telephone calls and meets our needs.

It's never easy to change the status quo, especially when the folks involved are perhaps older and of a fixed mindset, but the advantages to both the breed and club in this case are plain to see.