Is THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT at SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIRES?

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Pat said:

Part II

... Gil Jacobs did a presentation to CKCSC USA in 1997, and the panel of four international cardiologists (Keene, Beardow, Fuentes, Buchanan (?? memory failing) and Swedish geneticist Swenson presented the famous CKCSC symposium in 1998. Both presentations were in Atlanta, and I attended both. I think I sat near Rod in 1998 - can't remember if he attended in 1997. ...

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Pat is correct about the cardios at the 1998 symposium, Keene and Buchanan from the US, Andy Beardow and Fuentes from the UK, and the most important cog in that wheel, Lennart Swenson from Sweden.

I was at both the Jacobs presentation in 1997 and the symposium in 1998. Gil Jacobs did an excellent job of explaining how MVD crops up, and his outline handout is still a treasured reference.

Pat said:

Part III

Heritability of premature mitral valve disease in Cavalier King Charles spaniels. Tom Lewis, Simon Swift, John A. Woolliams, and Sarah Blott. Vet J. May 2010.Quote: "Mixed model analysis of 1252 records of cardiac auscultation of ≥4- to <5-year-old Cavalier King Charles spaniels (CKCS) from 1991 to 2008 in conjunction with the Kennel Club pedigree records of all dogs registered from the mid 1980s to September 2007 was used to estimate variance parameters of premature mitral valve disease (MVD). Data were limited to dogs 4 and <5 years of age to ensure diagnostic distinction between early and late onset MVD. Cardiac murmurs were detected in 108/1252 (8.6%) dogs. (cut some text here) These results indicate that the presence and severity of MVD, as assessed by cardiac auscultation, in 4- to 5-year-old CKCS is highly heritable and that selection against the disease should be successful." NOTES: Wish they had stats for CKCS of ages other than 4-5 year olds. IMPORTANT NOTE – from reading this abstract, 8.6% of CKCS ages 4-5 had murmurs. Note that these 1252 records are from 1991 to 2008. I’d like to see this info broken out year by year since this appears to be 1282 dogs (a good number) BUT over an 18 year period so the average is only 69 dogs per year. So I don’t have a good feel for what these numbers really mean or if they are statistically significant as far as telling us the percentage of CKCS with murmurs at various ages over a span of 18 years. Perhaps someone knows more specifics about this study. I didn't look for the entire study since I've already spent so much time on this endeavor and wasn't willing to take the necessary time to analyze this one study. ...

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I have not yet read beyond this quoted post, which is on the first page of what now is three pages of this topic. So, I may be pointing out something that someone else already has covered. But, here is my comment about Pat's IMPORTANT NOTE above:

The study appears to have been for a limited purpose of measuring heritability, using a mixed model analysis to estimate the variance parameters of early-onset MVD. The UK data base as of the end of 2008 consisted of 8,667 tested cavaliers, and yet the researchers selected only a particular 1,252 from that group. It may have been limited to those with sufficient ancestor information in their pedigrees, which would aid in the heritability measurement. So, what the researchers were doing was not the same as reporting a complete statistical study.

Pat said:

Part IV

I suspect that the reason we aren't seeing new published studies on Cavalier heart stats is that, for veterinary cardiologist researchers, the fact that there is extensive endocardiosis in the breed and it is inherited in some fashion is OLD news. ...

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Well, hell yes! What more should we expect from them on this point? They spent over ten years, from 1988 (some , like Peter Darke, earlier) to compile their statistics, and then in 1997 (in the UK) and 1998 (in the US), they presented their findings along with canine geneticist Swenson's recommendation -- what now is called THE MVD Breeding Protocol.

They told us then two other things: First, that the MVD Breeding Protocol was a compromise, because if they had their way, they would call for no breeding prior to age 5 years. Second, they said nothing less would work.

In Sweden, beginning in 2001, the kennel club and the CKCS club tried something less, and in Dr. Kvart's September 2010 report, he confirmed that it did not work. He told me that he has recommended that the two clubs there follow Swenson's advice, for a change. I do not know what success he has had in convincing those clubs to do so.

But, back to my main point here: Why should we expect these researchers to have to keep repeating the same advice again in 2011 just because 95% of the cavalier breeders -- and BOTH USA CAVALIER CLUBS -- have elected to blow them all off and ignore the MVD Breeding Protocol?

They told us nothing less would work. Nothing less has worked. Case closed!

Is this going to be another attempt at spinning the mvd figures in cavaliers?

RodRussell said:

Well, hell yes! What more should we expect from them on this point? They spent over ten years, from 1988 (some , like Peter Darke, earlier) to compile their statistics, and then in 1997 (in the UK) and 1998 (in the US), they presented their findings along with canine geneticist Swenson's recommendation -- what now is called THE MVD Breeding Protocol.

They told us then two other things: First, that the MVD Breeding Protocol was a compromise, because if they had their way, they would call for no breeding prior to age 5 years. Second, they said nothing less would work.

In Sweden, beginning in 2001, the kennel club and the CKCS club tried something less, and in Dr. Kvart's September 2010 report, he confirmed that it did not work. He told me that he has recommended that the two clubs there follow Swenson's advice, for a change. I do not know what success he has had in convincing those clubs to do so.

But, back to my main point here: Why should we expect these researchers to have to keep repeating the same advice again in 2011 just because 95% of the cavalier breeders -- and BOTH USA CAVALIER CLUBS -- have elected to blow them all off and ignore the MVD Breeding Protocol?

They told us nothing less would work. Nothing less has worked. Case closed!

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IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Could I mention that Professor Sir P.Bateson mentioned in his Report,Independant Inquiry into Dog Breeding ,page 26,the need for Statiscally Significant and Robust Prevalance Data ,to collect Prevalance Data from Veterinary Surgeries and Key Veterinary Hospitals.

That this is a Priority for Research ,for Robust Data on the Prevalance of Specific Conditions ,by Breed .

This looks what is being tackled now by the Information given from the Royal Veterinary College in collaberation with the University of Sydney,who are having a nation-Wide Survey of Small Animal Disease in the United Kingdom.

I think with this very exciting news , we are now going to learn the Extent of Health Problems in all Breeds of Dogs ,including our Cavalier Breed.

The Most up to date MVD Figures for MVD in Britain ,is from Simon Swift given at the 2009 AGM ,that 50% of Cavaliers have Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years of age.

Bet

What came across very clearly at the November Cavalier Health Day (and in various reports on the UK Club website) is the sheer frustration (verging on anger) of the researchers such as Simon Swift. Breeders are inflicting something on their Cavaliers which is totally unnecessary and could be bred out of the breed in a few generations. No, we can't directly control the pet breeders and puppy farmers who breed anything to anything (though the KC could refuse to register the puppies), but if every single member of all the UK clubs stuck faithfully to the protocols, that would be a great start. It can be done - 60 years ago, Irish Setter breeders eliminated night blindness from their breed by being ruthless about not breeding from affected dogs.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Is this going to be another attempt at spinning the mvd figures in cavaliers?

Bet said:

IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Could I mention that Professor Sir P.Bateson mentioned in his Report,Independant Inquiry into Dog Breeding ,page 26,the need for Statiscally Significant and Robust Prevalance Data ,to collect Prevalance Data from Veterinary Surgeries and Key Veterinary Hospitals.

That this is a Priority for Research ,for Robust Data on the Prevalance of Specific Conditions ,by Breed .

This looks what is being tackled now by the Information given from the Royal Veterinary College in collaberation with the University of Sydney,who are having a nation-Wide Survey of Small Animal Disease in the United Kingdom.

I think with this very exciting news , we are now going to learn the Extent of Health Problems in all Breeds of Dogs ,including our Cavalier Breed.

The Most up to date MVD Figures for MVD in Britain ,is from Simon Swift given at the 2009 AGM ,that 50% of Cavaliers have Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years of age.

Bet

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IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?

Forgot to say in my Previous Post , that when the the MVD FIGURES in Cavaliers are given from this Survey ,and probably will be as Horrendous as we know them to be , we will be saying to the Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers, that when buying a Cavalier ,only buy from a Cavalier Breeder who Has Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guidelines of not Breeding from a Cavalier before 2.5 years ,has no Health Problems and know the Health Status of the parents at 5.

The Cavaliers are the only Toy Breed to have such an Early ON-Set of MVD , and this the MVD Rearchers say is the only way this Early On-Set of their MVD Problem can be Tackled.

Bet

Is THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?

Bet said:

IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?

Forgot to say in my Previous Post , that when the the MVD FIGURES in Cavaliers are given from this Survey ,and probably will be as Horrendous as we know them to be , we will be saying to the Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers, that when buying a Cavalier ,only buy from a Cavalier Breeder who Has Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guidelines of not Breeding from a Cavalier before 2.5 years ,has no Health Problems and know the Health Status of the parents at 5.

The Cavaliers are the only Toy Breed to have such an Early ON-Set of MVD , and this the MVD Rearchers say is the only way this Early On-Set of their MVD Problem can be Tackled.

Bet

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IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?

At least this Thread has shown how Seriously the MVD Researchers are recognizing the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed .

This has been noted at the MVD Seminars since 1997, that's 14 years ago, when the Breeding MVD Breeding Guidelies in America were issued ,and before that in 1987 when the UK CKCS CLUB issued the MVD Breeding Guidelines.

What Message are some of the Vociferious Cavalier Breeders trying to get across, That there is No Serious MVD Problem in Cavaliers, That it is Improving, That there is No Need to be following Breeding Guidelines for MVD and SM in our Cavalier Breed.

I wish they would get their Act To-gether and give us the Proof contrary to what the Researchers are telling us.

Where is the Evidence from those Cavaliers Breeders that 50% of Cavaliers do not have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years ,what MVD Surveys have been carried by those certain Few Cavalier Breeders/

We have the Figures from the Researchers into both MVD and SM in Cavaliers ,so for a change let those Few Cavalier Breeders who are always Disputing the Researchers Figures produce their MVD and SM Figures ,if they can't then we will probably know that what they are claiming , the truth is, that they do not know.

Bet

Is this going to be another attempt at spinning the mvd figures in cavaliers?

Bet said:

IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?

At least this Thread has shown how Seriously the MVD Researchers are recognizing the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed .

This has been noted at the MVD Seminars since 1997, that's 14 years ago, when the Breeding MVD Breeding Guidelies in America were issued ,and before that in 1987 when the UK CKCS CLUB issued the MVD Breeding Guidelines.

What Message are some of the Vociferious Cavalier Breeders trying to get across, That there is No Serious MVD Problem in Cavaliers, That it is Improving, That there is No Need to be following Breeding Guidelines for MVD and SM in our Cavalier Breed.

I wish they would get their Act To-gether and give us the Proof contrary to what the Researchers are telling us.

Where is the Evidence from those Cavaliers Breeders that 50% of Cavaliers do not have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years ,what MVD Surveys have been carried by those certain Few Cavalier Breeders/

We have the Figures from the Researchers into both MVD and SM in Cavaliers ,so for a change let those Few Cavalier Breeders who are always Disputing the Researchers Figures produce their MVD and SM Figures ,if they can't then we will probably know that what they are claiming , the truth is, that they do not know.

Bet

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IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Let us Challenge the UK CKCS CLUB to put a Survey on their WEB SITE, asking for details about the Figures we have had past and present of Cavaliers who have Died from MVD or SM, or are at present Suffering from either of those Two Conditions.

This question could be being asked at the CKCS CLUB'S Health Stall at Crufts.

There will be Information from the Kennel Club about what the KC is doing for the Health Problems in Dog Breeds also at Crufts, perhaps this question could also be being asked, and if the BVA/KC CKCS MRI Scanning Scheme will be going ahead shortly.

Bet

Pat said:

Some thoughts in reply:

For the stats that Bet gave from UK CKCS club health days - are there charts showing the ages of the dogs tested and the number of clear/murmur for each age? I'm actually just as interested in ages 2, 3 and 4 results as age 5 because to me those are the "early onset" ages where life expectancy drops to the way-too-early demise at ages before 9 years old. I have heard some discussion in the US that the stats of this age group (1-4) have improved. I'd be really pleased to know that this is true since that would be a step in the right direction.

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You can find links to the results of the heart tests here.

Is this going to another attempt at spinning the mvd figures in cavaliers?

Margaret C said:

Thank you for that Pat, you are amazingly knowledgeable.




Wouldn't that be wonderful.

I think( hope )that the best figures we are ever likely to get are going to come through something like this scheme, which will automatically take information from veterinary practice software.......... http://www.rvc.ac.uk/VEctAR/

Isn't technology marvellous?

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IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Could I mention that on another Cavalier Forum a Cavalier Owner is going to be having a Cavalier World Population Survey on Hearts and SM in Cavaliers.

Here in Britain this is going to be done Professionally by the Royal Veterinary College in Collaboration with the University of Sydney ,who are undertaking a Nationwide Survey of Small Animal Disease .

This will be to investigate the Range and Frequency of Small Animals Health Problems seen by Veterinary Surgeons working in General Practice in the United Kingdom and Highlight Major Risk Factors for those Conditions.

I would think that this type of Survey will give more Reliable Figures of the SM and MVD Cavalier Problems because those Problems must come into the RVC Survey.

Bet

Is this going to be another attempt at spinning the mvd figures in cavaliers?

Bet said:

IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Could I mention that on another Cavalier Forum a Cavalier Owner is going to be having a Cavalier World Population Survey on Hearts and SM in Cavaliers.

Here in Britain this is going to be done Professionally by the Royal Veterinary College in Collaboration with the University of Sydney ,who are undertaking a Nationwide Survey of Small Animal Disease .

This will be to investigate the Range and Frequency of Small Animals Health Problems seen by Veterinary Surgeons working in General Practice in the United Kingdom and Highlight Major Risk Factors for those Conditions.

I would think that this type of Survey will give more Reliable Figures of the SM and MVD Cavalier Problems because those Problems must come into the RVC Survey.

Bet

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IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


I have just read the WEB SITE of the Cavalier Breeder who is carrying out the CKCS WORLD POPULATION SURVEY FOR 2011.

He seems to be doubting the High Percentages of the Figures given by the Researchers into the SM and MVD in our Cavalier Breed.

He want's to get rid of those Rumours and to obtain the the Right Figures.

How will this Survey here in Britain be better than the Survey to be carried by the Royal Veterinary College,since in his last Survey in 2007 there were only 1,100 Cavaliers from 20 other Countries World.

The RVC Survey is involving the Data from the Veterinary Profession ,at the moment there could be around 100,000 Cavaliers living at 10 years of age, which I think will give the the RVC 's Health Survey Realistic Figures about how many Cavaliers with SM the Researchers have seen and the Cardiologists have seen with Cavaliers with MVD.

Bet

This survey gives everyone who has had MRI tested their dogs, and had either dopler tests done (Europe) or cardiologist tests done, to enter their results. This is world wide.

We need as much information as possible about the health of cavaliers. This survey has been initiated by the Dutch because the extreme animal rights organisations in that country are trying (and may very well succeed) to get the Cavalier banned in that country. I hope no-one here wants that to happen, as it could have repercussions here and elsewhere.

Bet you might not agree with this person's thoughts on the % of affected cavaliers within the population, but he has as much right to an opinion and you, or me, or anyone else. At least he is trying to get some figures together. It might not turn out to be very good news, but if as many people contribute as possible, it will be a fair indication don't you think?

What he is trying to do is get as many people involved who have had their dogs tested.

As I have said, the more information that can be collated, whether its by the RVC or this survey, or any other, it can help get a handle on these problems once and for all.

Please don't knock it. There are lots of people on this Forum that can contribute to help give a clearer picture..

Is this going to be another attempt at spinning the mvd figures in cavaliers?

Davecav said:

This survey gives everyone who has had MRI tested their dogs, and had either dopler tests done (Europe) or cardiologist tests done, to enter their results. This is world wide.

We need as much information as possible about the health of cavaliers. This survey has been initiated by the Dutch because the extreme animal rights organisations in that country are trying (and may very well succeed) to get the Cavalier banned in that country. I hope no-one here wants that to happen, as it could have repercussions here and elsewhere.

Bet you might not agree with this person's thoughts on the % of affected cavaliers within the population, but he has as much right to an opinion and you, or me, or anyone else. At least he is trying to get some figures together. It might not turn out to be very good news, but if as many people contribute as possible, it will be a fair indication don't you think?

What he is trying to do is get as many people involved who have had their dogs tested.

As I have said, the more information that can be collated, whether its by the RVC or this survey, or any other, it can help get a handle on these problems once and for all.

Please don't knock it. There are lots of people on this Forum that can contribute to help give a clearer picture..

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IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Davecav ,

I think here in Britain there are already Figures for SM in Cavaliers , around 800 plus and for CM aprox 90%, and 50% with Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years of age.

There have been about 10,000 Cavaliers Registered yearly by the Kennel Club ,not for the Past 2 years though since the Figure has now dropped to around 8,000.

Take the 10.000 figure ,and the Cavaliers' age that they live to is approx 10.

So that will probably mean there are about 100,000 Cavaliers living in Britain to-day.

50% of them having Murmurs at 5-6 years of age ,is approx 50,000 having Murmurs at 5-6 years of age.

Is Norma Inglis involved with this Survey for Britain as she was in the Previous 2007 Health Survey ?

Bet