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Thread: Some cavalier in-bred co-efficients

  1. #1
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    Default Some cavalier in-bred co-efficients

    With the mention of the KENNEL CLUB'S forth -coming MATE SELECT ,on the CKCS CLUB , USA INC , is a List of some Cavaliers' IN- BRED CO -EFFICIENTS.

    For any-one interested here are a few from the List.

    I will just give the Cavalier Champions.

    CH ABELARD of TTIWEH 22%

    CH ALANSMERE MICHELLE 27%

    Ch ALANSMERE SANDMARTIN 24%

    Ch ALBERTO OF KINDRUM 21%

    Ch CHANTIZ THYME 21%

    CH CHARLOTTETOWN MacKINTOSH 22%

    Ch CINOLA SUPER TRAMP OF DEERIEM 21%

    Ch CRAIGOWL CASHMERE 25%

    Ch CRAIGOWL HOPSCOTCH OF HOMERBRENT 23%

    Ch CRAIGOWL STORM OF HOMERBRENT 23%

    Ch HEIDI OF HOMERBRENT 25%

    Ch HOMARANNE ANDY CAPP 24%

    Ch HOMARANNE CAPTION 23%

    Ch MERRYLAINE MADE TO MEASURE FOR SYMRA 22%.

    Ch MILKEYN MASCOT 31%

    Ch MILKEYN MATCHMAKER 31%

    Ch ROSEMULLION OF OTTERMOUTH 20%

    Ch TELVARA TOP HAT 25%

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Default Some cavalier in-bred co-efficients

    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    With the mention of the KENNEL CLUB'S forth -coming MATE SELECT ,on the CKCS CLUB , USA INC , is a List of some Cavaliers' IN- BRED CO -EFFICIENTS.

    For any-one interested here are a few from the List.

    I will just give the Cavalier Champions.

    CH ABELARD of TTIWEH 22%

    CH ALANSMERE MICHELLE 27%

    Ch ALANSMERE SANDMARTIN 24%

    Ch ALBERTO OF KINDRUM 21%

    Ch CHANTIZ THYME 21%

    CH CHARLOTTETOWN MacKINTOSH 22%

    Ch CINOLA SUPER TRAMP OF DEERIEM 21%

    Ch CRAIGOWL CASHMERE 25%

    Ch CRAIGOWL HOPSCOTCH OF HOMERBRENT 23%

    Ch CRAIGOWL STORM OF HOMERBRENT 23%

    Ch HEIDI OF HOMERBRENT 25%

    Ch HOMARANNE ANDY CAPP 24%

    Ch HOMARANNE CAPTION 23%

    Ch MERRYLAINE MADE TO MEASURE FOR SYMRA 22%.

    Ch MILKEYN MASCOT 31%

    Ch MILKEYN MATCHMAKER 31%

    Ch ROSEMULLION OF OTTERMOUTH 20%

    Ch TELVARA TOP HAT 25%

    Bet

    SOME CAVALIER IN- BRED CO-EFFICENTS


    If I could add to my previous Post on this subject.

    Over the years I have collected a List of Long Lived Cavaliers, in-fact the List of around 2,000 Names of Cavaliers with ages of 12 years and over along with the names and ages of their Sires and Dams is held in the Kennel Club Library.

    I did'nt mention the ages of the IN-Bred CO-EFFICIENTS of some of those Cavaliers from my List that I gave yesterday was for a particular reason .

    Even although they had lived to a good age and had quite High COI's for our Cavalier Breed , average being only 5.4 %,that it is no reason to think that it makes no difference that a Cavalier can have a High COI and be safely IN-Bred.

    This can only be Proved if the COI's of Cavaliers are taken into account and the difference between the COI's of Cavaliers who have lived to a Good Age are compared to the COI's of those Cavaliers who have had Health Problems.

    This is why the MATE SELECT and the EBV SCheme is so important both for Cavalier Breeders and Buyers of Cavaliers.

    A Complete Picture will be made avaliable as to the Health of the Cavalier .

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Could anyone explain what in bred co-efficient means? ( Sorry for appearing a bit ignorant!)
    Carol

    Proud Mummy to Kaley, 9 year old Tricolour
    Sonny ,Blen ( at the Bridge)

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    A common way of breeding any dog is what's called line breeding - using dogs who share a notable common ancestor, who may appear in many different generations of the joint pedigrees. For example, the same dog may appear as a grandfather, a g-grandfather once on both sides, a g-g-grandfather 4 or 5 times. This is quite common with Cavaliers, who have a fairly limited gene pool (choice of different dogs to breed from, especially in the early days of the breed). Line breeding can work fairly well if it isn't too close (when it become inbreeding) - IF the dog you are doubling up on is healthy. But if the dog you are line breeding to carries, for example, the gene for early onset heart disease, then that gene is getting replicated through each generation - which is partly why it is such a problem in Cavaliers.

    So the percentages that Bet quotes represent the number of times a particular dog appears in Cavalier pedigrees. 20% means that going back a long way, one-fifth of a Cavalier's ancestors are the same dog (who may appear only a few times in each generation, but cumulatively his or her genes have a huge influence). So if you want to line-breed, it is safer to line-breed to a dog who appears less frequently in every Cavalier's pedigree (and has a lower percentage score), rather than to the very popular stud dog that everybody used (unless of course you know that he was completely healthy!). And not to inbreed at all - for example, mating half-brother and sister, so that there is a concentration of the same ancestors in the close generations.

    Hope I've managed to be clear!

    Kate, Oliver and Aled

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    Kate, thank you for explaining. I enjoy this forum as it's always informative on all things Cavalier.

    Sonny was a rescue from the SSPCA shelter and Kaley was rehomed to me from TLDR so I've no knowledge of breeding and don't share the same knowledge as a lot of the members on here. I felt a bit of an idiot asking so thanks for clearing that up.
    Carol

    Proud Mummy to Kaley, 9 year old Tricolour
    Sonny ,Blen ( at the Bridge)

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    Default Crufts, COIs, Mate Select and outcrossing

    Tania and I went to Crufts last Sunday, mainly to look at the stalls to see what was selling well and get some ideas for the CavalierMatters stall.

    I hired a mobility scooter so did the window shopping in style. I resisted road rage temptation even when we saw certain KC members.

    We were shown the new Mate Select programme by Nick Blayney, who is a Past President of the BVA. This project is the Kennel Club's great white hope for the future of pedigree dog breeding.
    The KC intention is that breeders and buyers will be able to use this programme to get health & inbreeding information when considering a possible mating or getting details about puppies for sale.

    We had a fairly wide ranging discussion during which Mr Blayney rather reluctantly conceded that the PDE film had been a considerable force for change, and that prior to 2008 the veterinary profession had stood by and failed to act despite the obvious health problems in pure bred dogs.

    I had a real surprise when I put in the names of Faith, the cavalier that lives with my daughter, & the dog she has just been mated to.

    This mating would be considered as an outcross in cavalier breeding circles and so I expected the COI of the potential puppies would be better than the breed average, especially as I was told that Select Mate would only use 3 generations for the calculations.
    To my dismay the COI of this mating was something like 6.6 (worse than a first cousin to first cousin mating ) whereas the breed average was said to be 5.4
    I had been sure this mating must have a much better COI than average.

    Nick Blayney explained that that a lot of the same ancestors in the background could have the same effect as one ancestor in common in the last couple of generations and I have realised that I was only comparing this mating with very linebred show breeder matings, which on the whole would have very high COI indeed.

    The relatively low breed average COI will be thanks to the 80% of non-breed-club people who register their litters with the KC but do not line breed.
    A lot of fresh genes there if only we could identify those relatively unaffected with SM & MVD.

    Faith's eye test results did not show up on Mate Select, although they are on the KC website and in the BRS. This has apparently happened to others and is something they will have to sort out before it goes live ( The KC is saying this will be in few weeks but Mr Blayney felt it would be a good few months )

    Nick Blayney mentioned bringing new genetic material into the Cavalier gene pool by outcrossing to another breed.
    I said I thought it may be a good idea if it gave us a healthier dog, but I was sure most breeders would be very opposed and there was no way the KC would agree. To my surprise he said it was already being discussed within the KC.

    As I have already said on another post we visited the health scheme stall & were told that the BVA was in favour of publication of the MRI scheme results and they were still accepting views sent in by breeders and pet people up until May.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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    Actually, having looked again at Bet's list, I'm not sure I got the percentage right! I think it is probably the percentage of all Cavaliers who have these dogs in their pedigree - in other words, 20% means that one-fifth of all Cavaliers have this dog in their pedigree, so there is a good chance that a great number of matings will double up on this dog (and its genes and problems). Whichever way you interpret the percentages (and someone will no doubt correct me!), they are a useful guide for breeders who want to keep the gene pool as wide as possible, which is so important with both MVD and SM being genetic in origin.

    Hope you are not now hopelessly confused! I'm not a breeder either, just someone who has always been interested in dogs in general and Cavaliers in particular.

    Kate, Oliver and Aled

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    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    Nick Blayney mentioned bringing new genetic material into the Cavalier gene pool by outcrossing to another breed.
    I said I thought it may be a good idea if it gave us a healthier dog, but I was sure most breeders would be very opposed and there was no way the KC would agree. To my surprise he said it was already being discussed within the KC..

    As I have already said on another post we visited the health scheme stall & were told that the BVA was in favour of publication of the MRI scheme results and they were still accepting views sent in by breeders and pet people up until May
    Margaret
    I find it quite interesting that the KC are now discussing outcrossing, because at a recent seminar Jeff Samson was saying that although CKCS could be the first breed to have to outcross, we hadn't reached that point yet, I wonder if some more information has come to light, or whether there is just despair that the breed can sort it's own problems out ?

    Good news that the BVA are in favour of publication of the BVA/KC CM/SM scheme. Lets hope many breeders and pet owners continue to send their views in to the KC and the BVA.
    It doesn't look as though most of the Clubs are going to use the period of consultation given by the KC and BVA to consult with their members, either to explain the BVA/KC CM/SM scheme or give each member an opportunity to give their views. Pity, as many of the Clubs' members are pet owners and would surely vote for publication of results.

    Maggie Ford

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    Someone help me remember, please - it seems to me that there was a pedigree website that showed COI figures on the pedigrees. I remember looking at the pedigree for a litter sister of my Capers and Caprice and I seem to recall a pretty low figure. (They were an outcross from the Kilspindie kennel outcrossed to a Homerbrent bitch.) But now I can't find any COI info on any pedigree website.

    Pat
    Last edited by Pat; 19th March 2011 at 06:43 PM. Reason: correction - Homerbrent, not Homaranne
    Pat B
    Atlanta, GA

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    Perhaps it was the A.E.N.A. database?
    Not sure how accurate or precise the COIs are though.
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