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Thread: Some cavalier in-bred co-efficients

  1. #11
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    Pat, on the AENA pedigree database is a Kilspindie female that I believe is littermate to your Caprice. The COI is 3.22% - and that database does COI to 8 generations if the pedigree is complete to that.

    In regards to the original post, there is a very informative link that describes inbreeding coefficients and what they are about, along with ancestor loss coefficients and relationship (of sire to dam) coefficients, at the following link: - http://www.czerwonytrop.com/inb/inde...full=ok&lng=en

    I believe the EBV program ties these up, along with other considerations, in a neat package.

    Oreo

  2. #12
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    Thanks - can someone give a link to the AENA database? Must one be a member to view pedigrees? (Some of the sites require a password.)

    I know that one of the seven littermates of my Capers and Caprice is on most of the pedigree databases - date of birth of this litter is April 2, 1990 and litter registration number is L-2820. Liz did heavy line-breeding, but this litter was an outcross - dam was Homerbrent Lace Cap and sire was Kilspindie Morocco. And Rocco was also an outcross - sire was Kilspindie Mockingbird and dam was Sukev Casablanca of Saintbrides & Kilspindie.

    Although Tracy and Rocco were not what I consider long-living - there were some long-lived dogs in the pedigree. Cassie lived to 15, Songbird to 15, etc.

    Capers lived to 16 1/2 and Caprice to 16. I've always believed that those two out-crosses were a favorable factor.

    Pat
    Pat B
    Atlanta, GA

  3. #13
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    The link to the AENA database is http://dhvg.ckcs-kcs.dyndns.org/search_EN.html

    The link to the pedigree of Caprice's littermate is http://dhvg.ckcs-kcs.dyndns.org/cgi-...=5&db=CKCS.dbw

    You do have to sign up and have a password for the pedigree link to work.

    I hope that helps.

    Oreo

  4. #14
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    Default Some cavalier in-bred co-efficients

    Quote Originally Posted by tuppenlil View Post
    Margaret
    I find it quite interesting that the KC are now discussing outcrossing, because at a recent seminar Jeff Samson was saying that although CKCS could be the first breed to have to outcross, we hadn't reached that point yet, I wonder if some more information has come to light, or whether there is just despair that the breed can sort it's own problems out ?

    Good news that the BVA are in favour of publication of the BVA/KC CM/SM scheme. Lets hope many breeders and pet owners continue to send their views in to the KC and the BVA.
    It doesn't look as though most of the Clubs are going to use the period of consultation given by the KC and BVA to consult with their members, either to explain the BVA/KC CM/SM scheme or give each member an opportunity to give their views. Pity, as many of the Clubs' members are pet owners and would surely vote for publication of results.

    Maggie Ford

    Could I thank both Maggie and Margaret for their Posts, what I wonder is when the CM/SM Scheme Results are Published, what will the Results be for those Cavaliers Bred in Puppy Farms be.

    I hate the idea of Puppy Farms ,but.........if it's the Show Bred Cavaliers who have the mostly High IN-Bred COI's then has the Bullet to be Biten and some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms be being introduced to widen the Cavalier Gene Pool.

    If the Cavalier Breed has to be Salvaged ,this could be Food for Thought.

    It has been quoted that the average COI's for Cavaliers Registered with Kennel Club is 5.4 %, but remember, as the Cavalier Breeders have insisted ,only 20% of those Cavaliers Registered are from CKCS CLUB MEMBERS, so is it the 80% of Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB'S that may have lower COI's that have made the 5.4 % COI's possible as the average for COI's in the Cavalier Breed

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    I also have a section in the Library on COIs with some easy to understand background:

    http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/s...g-coefficients
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post

    I hate the idea of Puppy Farms ,but.........if it's the Show Bred Cavaliers who have the mostly High IN-Bred COI's then has the Bullet to be Biten and some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms be being introduced to widen the Cavalier Gene Pool.

    If the Cavalier Breed has to be Salvaged ,this could be Food for Thought.

    It has been quoted that the average COI's for Cavaliers Registered with Kennel Club is 5.4 %, but remember, as the Cavalier Breeders have insisted ,only 20% of those Cavaliers Registered are from CKCS CLUB MEMBERS, so is it the 80% of Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB'S that may have lower COI's that have made the 5.4 % COI's possible as the average for COI's in the Cavalier Breed

    Bet
    Bet
    When the figures of 20% club members versus 80% puppy farmers are quoted we might be doing some people who choose not to belong to Cavalier Clubs a big disservice. They might be very caring owners, very health conscious and very much wanting to do what is best for the breed. When I was health rep. I had many enquiries asking how people could do their best to breed healthy puppies. Many people have left the Clubs because of the politics, many never were interested in showing and never joined, some just want to breed the odd litter because they love having puppies around. It doesn't necessarily mean they don't care and we musn't lump them all together with "puppy farmers" who really don't care.

    But some do want to do their best for the breed, but unless they were in the system to get Club heart forms, know where the health clinics were, etc. know how to get their eyes tested etc.they could not easily health test their dog, or even know what should be done.

    The introduction of KC Accredited Breeder, the BVA CMSM and Heart schemes, Mate Select and the EBV will also help all those breeders. Then potential buyers will be able to identify testing breeders whether they be in or out of the Clubs.

    And most interestingly, when the results are published from the health schemes, we should be able to identify many unknown dogs with good scans and good hearts that we can use to prevent us potentially having to outcross to another breed.

    Maggie

  7. #17
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    Bet wrote: could some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms be being introduced to widen the Cavalier Gene Pool.

    But Cavaliers from puppy farms still come from the same gene pool. There isn't some parallel gene pool being used by puppy farmers, they all go back to the original small number of dogs. And most puppy farms use the same stud dogs (their own) over and over again, so reducing the gene pool further. And if they don't have genuine pedigrees, no-one will know if the dogs they produce would widen the gene pool or not.

    And if my very pretty ex-puppy farm Aled is anything to go by, somewhere along the line some well-bred Cavaliers have got into the wrong hands. Not everyone breeding what you might call 'mainstream' Cavaliers is as stringent as they should be at vetting homes, and dogs can get sold to the first comer if an owner dies or has to go into care. One of the reasons Many Tears neuters all its rescues is to prevent them getting back into puppy farmers' hands in spite of the care MT take over home checks. So you will still come back to the same gene pool.

    It's the way the Cavalier breed developed that makes the gene pool question so difficult.

    Kate, Oliver and Aled

  8. #18
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    The other thing with puppy farms is it's so easy to make up pedigrees in this day and age from the internet, especially if the pups being sold aren't KC registered. I, or you, or anyone could go onto a website and devise a pedigree for your puppies as a puppy farmer or a byb. The people who buy those pups will be impressed! The ones that give a wide berth are the ones that have done their homework. and how many are they? sad but true

  9. #19
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    Default Some cavalier in-bred co-efficients.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davecav View Post
    The other thing with puppy farms is it's so easy to make up pedigrees in this day and age from the internet, especially if the pups being sold aren't KC registered. I, or you, or anyone could go onto a website and devise a pedigree for your puppies as a puppy farmer or a byb. The people who buy those pups will be impressed! The ones that give a wide berth are the ones that have done their homework. and how many are they? sad but true

    SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS

    Let me put another thought to my Post , OK , the COI's from Puppy farms wont work, but what if ,say about 30 Cavaliers were bought from Puppy Farms and BYB's , Health Tested for SM and MVD, and had no problems from those Conditions , then let them be being used to try and get the Cavalier Breed out of the Mess it's in at the moment because of those Two Conditions.

    The Researchers have given the Figure of around 90% of Cavaliers have CM , this is Chacterised by the Brain being too Big for the Skull ,the Cerebro Spinal Fluid I believe can't get round the Brain properly, this can involve Syrinxes being formed.

    We also have been told by the Researchers ,that 50% of Cavaliers have Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years of age, and that there are many Cavaliers to-day who can be Carriers of the MVD Genes.

    So would the idea of using some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's who had no sign of MVD and SM not work, why would'nt it .surely it's worth a try to give our Cavaliers a Future.

    Let the CKCS CLUB who have a lot of Funds , buy those Cavaliers to give this a try .

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kate H View Post
    But Cavaliers from puppy farms still come from the same gene pool. There isn't some parallel gene pool being used by puppy farmers, they all go back to the original small number of dogs. And most puppy farms use the same stud dogs (their own) over and
    Kate, Oliver and Aled

    There has to be an explanation why the cavalier COI mean value is only 5.4
    There has to be a lot of genetic diversity somewhere other than in show bred dogs if my bitch, with no ancestor doubled up in three generations, mated to a dog with the same lack of doubling in his three generations, would have puppies with a greater COI than the mean average.

    If it is because of the shared ancestors way back in the pedigree, then there must be a lot of cavaliers that don't share that same show dog ancestory to any great extent.

    Cavaliers go back to the same few dogs but from the figures that can be seen in the Breed Record Supplement the very linebred ( inbred ) show dogs are a small subsection.
    There will be other subsections within the other 80% and their collection of genes will been bred into them for a different reason than just to be pretty enough to win at shows.
    It may have been they were keen stud dogs or fertile bitches that whelped well and had big litters, or just that they were hardy enough to survive puppy farm conditions into adulthood

    My frustration, and I should imagine that Maggie as another ex-Cavalier Club Representative may feel the same, is that there is so much that could be set in motion now to limit the damage being done to the breed.

    Because so many cannot look outside the box and consider using unknown cavalier lines or outcrossing to another breed I would think as a priority there should be:-

    Scanning and identification of older Grade A stud dogs and a project to store their semen for future use.
    Cooperation with overseas owners to identify and import semen from significant Grade A dogs for storage and future use.

    If there was a real will to save the breed, without the usual proviso that the look and the temperament must not be changed in any way, then serious thought could be given to identifying 'puppy farm' dogs and bitches that could be bought into breeding programmes, or the Club could ask the advice of the geneticists, who really know just what needs to be done, to consider a project of carefully controlled outcrossing to another breed.

    A couple of my own thoughts here...... When people say that they don't agree with outcrossing to another breed, or looking at using dogs with unknown pedigree lines because they don't want to lose the look and the temperament of cavaliers, are they actually saying they would prefer SM to continue to affect the breed than for those two characteristics to change?

    It is the dogs that suffer. If they could have a voice would they agree with these lovers of the breed?

    Re looks: We all adored our cavaliers in the 60s, 70s , 80s, 90s and 2000s even if they were not as big eyed, short nosed, cushioned faced, perfectly marked, long backed and short legged etc. as the fashionable cavalier in the show ring today.

    Re: Temperament. It is being recognised that SM dogs can often have uncertain temperaments because they fear being touched. They have been known to attack other dogs and sometimes even family members. If SM affected cavaliers continue to be added to the gene pool because Club breeders cannot self-regulate, then we may be on our way to losing the sweet cavalier temperament anyway?
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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