Some cavalier in-bred co-efficients

tuppenlil said:

Bet
When the figures of 20% club members versus 80% puppy farmers are quoted we might be doing some people who choose not to belong to Cavalier Clubs a big disservice. They might be very caring owners, very health conscious and very much wanting to do what is best for the breed. When I was health rep. I had many enquiries asking how people could do their best to breed healthy puppies. Many people have left the Clubs because of the politics, many never were interested in showing and never joined, some just want to breed the odd litter because they love having puppies around. It doesn't necessarily mean they don't care and we musn't lump them all together with "puppy farmers" who really don't care.
Maggie

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Hello Maggie,

Welcome to CavalierTalk. I am looking forward to some interesting discussions with you.

What you say is true. I certainly have friends that love having cavalier puppies. They do all the health testing but are not interested in showing and just want to produce healthy pets.

A couple of them have cavalier with well known puppy farm affixes, but they look like cavaliers, they act like cavaliers, and in one case there is no SM in a bitch scanned through Ruperts Fund.

Maggie[/QUOTE]

I can see why some may be not for outcrossing with another breed or have that opinion. I don't understand if a cavalier is tested clear or of good "health" genes, why would it matter where it came from? Those cavaliers just might be the saving grace or true gems.

Help me understand that please

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Thinking more, wouldn't pedigree be beneficial to know health or genetic past? Maybe just if we had health of parents (hearts) and the actual test of one being bred be enough?

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Margaret C said:

Hello Maggie,

Welcome to CavalierTalk. I am looking forward to some interesting discussions with you.

What you say is true. I certainly have friends that love having cavalier puppies. They do all the health testing but are not interested in showing and just want to produce healthy pets.

A couple of them have cavalier with well known puppy farm affixes, but they look like cavaliers, they act like cavaliers, and in one case there is no SM in a bitch scanned through Ruperts Fund.

Maggie

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SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS


I think and most Lovers of the Cavalier Breed will have to agree that the Cavalier Breed is now at the Cross Roads of it's Future,

Has the choice to be Out-Crossing to another Breed or Buying Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's ,and be used for for Cavalier Breeding Programs, making sure that they have no SM and MVD , since those are the Two Diseases which are going to put an end to our Cavaliers.

Can the Fashionable Cavaliers of to-day ,as Margaret has said having Big Eyes, Short Noses ,Cushioned Faces ,Long Backs and Short Legs, have what is needed to save the Breed.

I don't know the answer ,all I know is that drastic measures now have got to be being taken.

Maybe it will be Cavalier Puppy Farm Cavaliers who are going to save the Breed.

OK the Breeders on the Show Scene Circuit will be having the Vapours at this thought, but is it not about time that the Health of our Cavaliers came first and not what the type will be that's going to Win at the Cavalier Shows.

Bet

Margaret C said:

Re looks: We all adored our cavaliers in the 60s, 70s , 80s, 90s and 2000s even if they were not as big eyed, short nosed, cushioned faced, perfectly marked, long backed and short legged etc. as the fashionable cavalier in the show ring today.

Re: Temperament. It is being recognised that SM dogs can often have uncertain temperaments because they fear being touched. They have been known to attack other dogs and sometimes even family members. If SM affected cavaliers continue to be added to the gene pool because Club breeders cannot self-regulate, then we may be on our way to losing the sweet cavalier temperament anyway?

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Margaret

Thats very true about the temperament, several people have had rather unpleasant experiences with temperament issues. Also some dogs seem to be 'off the ceiling' with excitement and some are too nervous and backing off any physical contact. So maybe we are already starting to lose that gentle sweet temperament unique to the Cavalier ?? That would be really tragic.

Any look at a human Chiari support website would tell you how ghastly it must be if you have to live with a constant headache!


Maggie

80% of the puppy registrations may be by non-club breeders, but it is really important to understand that of those 80%, all are not puppy farmers -- I doubt that even most are. A lot of them no doubt are people that some club breeders sold their puppies to on open registrations, who can breed away as they wish on a fairly casual basis without much knowledge of what they are doing or consideration for the kinds of dogs they are mating. Some portion will be puppy farmers. A lot will be people who breed for a pet market that cannot be satisfied alone by the numbers of puppies bred by club breeders, much less the subset of health testing club breeders.

Like others here, I also have come across people who left the show world because they felt there was not enough emphasis on breeding for health but decided that it was worth trying to produce puppies that have been bred using the protocols and existing health tests. One such that I know of has nearly a dozen A grade dogs that have been scanned under the formal scanning protocol. Some of these will not have pedigrees that immediately go back to show dogs–and have remained isolated from that whole scene, as well as popular sires–and perhaps that is why this breeder is having such an extraordinary number of excellent grades. She only breeds A dogs that also have clear hearts, as tested annually by a cardiologist.

All the dogs are registered, but she is not in the breed club. She has just made a commitment to breeding for health, supporting research and producing health focused puppies for pet homes.

I think those are the kinds of dogs and breeders that should be brought back into some kind of international breeding program to try to eradicate the serious health issues in this breed.

I am not all that sure about puppy farmed dogs being sturdier because they are able to survive poor conditions. If you look at some of the dogs that come out of puppy farms and are handed into rescues in Wales and in Ireland, a lot of them have serious health issues but most have been bred already. I just think the dogs in this gentle breed tolerate whatever situation they are put into and as they are never tested or closely watched by anybody who loves them, the health issues just are not noticed. Amongst those, I would include Suzy, the ex-puppy farm dog now living with an elderly neighbor of mine, who had a grade 5 heart murmur at age 6 and was being handed over because the puppy farmer had bred as many litters from her (7) as he could and still get IKC registration and a male stud dog who went to Mattiesmum on the board here from me, and had a grade 5 murmur at only about age 5 or six (the owner told me he could still be used to sire litters if I wanted :sl*p. Lots come out with serious untreated eye problems and advanced heart murmurs.

Margaret,

They can store semen? Are they doing that?

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anniemac said:

Margaret,

They can store semen? Are they doing that?

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Yes, it can be frozen and used decades later.

At very least the Cavalier Club should be encouraging breeders to MRI their older dogs and then using some of the health money that is lying unused in the bank ( a very bad habit in many clubs ) to pay for the storage of semen from Grade A dogs.

I frankly despair when I read that a Cavalier Health Liaison Council Member has asked why would pet owners want to see a list of MRI scanned dogs?
Perhaps because they have been told they should do some homework before they buy?

I would think that a better question is why would a breeder not want such a list provided?

There is nothing that can tell a pet owner that Mrs A is a breeder that should be trusted or that Mr B is a plausible conman. I know a few breeders that could make a secondhand car salesman look like a beginner when it comes to smooth talking.

There is one remark repeated yet again that always puzzles me............ "a scan shows only the status of the dog on one particular day"
Isn't that the same for any test for any condition, including smear tests and mammograms in women? Does that mean those tests should also be dismissed?

The usual breeder concerns about the potential effects of discarding D dogs from the gene pool are voiced.
The fact that the popular sire syndrome is a very important cause of genetic loss never seems to be recognised.

The guidelines ensure that there is a place for D dogs that genuinely have other good health genes to offer, but they should always have a grade A mate.
Such a breeding does bring a greater risk of SM affected offspring than using two grade A parents.

There is to me a very telling sentence when this CHLC member writes that hundreds of dogs have been scanned in the last two or three years as breeders have slowly realized that they really do have a problem.
It sounds good, but to put it in context Club members received a leaflet eight years ago saying that SM was a rapidly spreading problem.

It was already known that the top stud dogs were producing offspring with SM, so it did not take a lot of knowledge to realise those SM genes would be spreading through the gene pool?

Six years to slowly realize they really do have a problem?

How much longer before breed club health representatives stop wasting time planning how they can prevent the full extent of the health problems being revealed and we see the CHLC take some real action to address the problems of SM and MVD?

Margaret wrote: they were not as big eyed, short nosed, cushioned faced, perfectly marked, long backed and short legged etc. as the fashionable cavalier in the show ring today.

I've been having an interesting exchange of emails with a top breeder who took exception to a remark I made in an earlier post about breeders following fashions, especially in heads, and who assures me that there aren't fashions in Cavaliers and no respectable Cavalier breeder would follow fashion if it existed.

Karlin wrote: I am not all that sure about puppy farmed dogs being sturdier because they are able to survive poor conditions.

Aled came out of his Welsh puppy farm at 18 months with rotten teeth, appalling ear mites and a grade 2 heart murmur which quickly went up to a Grade 3 - and he was only 18 months, many ex-puppy farm dogs are older breeding bitches with dreadful health. He's now 4 years old and his murmur has stayed at 3 - I hope because he has lost weight, is very fit and on a very strict diet, but it's still way too high for a dog of his age. He wasn't vaccinated either until he came into rescue - I hate to think what could have happened if he had come to the parvo hotspot that is Coventry as an unvaccinated puppy, which he could have done if someone had bought him direct from the puppy farm and the breeder had lied about vaccination.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Margaret C said:

I frankly despair when I read that a Cavalier Health Liaison Council Member has asked why would pet owners want to see a list of MRI scanned dogs?
Perhaps because they have been told they should do some homework before they buy?

I would think that a better question is why would a breeder not want such a list provided?

There is nothing that can tell a pet owner that Mrs A is a breeder that should be trusted or that Mr B is a plausible conman. I know a few breeders that could make a secondhand car salesman look like a beginner when it comes to smooth talking.

There is one remark repeated yet again that always puzzles me............ "a scan shows only the status of the dog on one particular day"
Isn't that the same for any test for any condition, including smear tests and mammograms in women? Does that mean those tests should also be dismissed?

The usual breeder concerns about the potential effects of discarding D dogs from the gene pool are voiced.
The fact that the popular sire syndrome is a very important cause of genetic loss never seems to be recognised.

The guidelines ensure that there is a place for D dogs that genuinely have other good health genes to offer, but they should always have a grade A mate.
Such a breeding does bring a greater risk of SM affected offspring than using two grade A parents.

There is to me a very telling sentence when this CHLC member writes that hundreds of dogs have been scanned in the last two or three years as breeders have slowly realized that they really do have a problem.
It sounds good, but to put it in context Club members received a leaflet eight years ago saying that SM was a rapidly spreading problem.

It was already known that the top stud dogs were producing offspring with SM, so it did not take a lot of knowledge to realise those SM genes would be spreading through the gene pool?

Six years to slowly realize they really do have a problem?

How much longer before breed club health representatives stop wasting time planning how they can prevent the full extent of the health problems being revealed and we see the CHLC take some real action to address the problems of SM and MVD?

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SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS


Can I thank Margaret for her Thought- Provoking Post, it sure brings home to us who really Love our Cavalier Breed, where we now stand.

That CKCS Health Representatives may use every Excuse they can think of for not Tackling the SM and MVD Problems Afflicting our Cavaliers.

I have been told by some Eminent Members of the CKCS Committee this useless Phrase ,that a MVD or SM Health Health Check is only worth for the Day it is done, this I may add was from one of the Newly Appointed CKCS CLUB Health Representatives !!

It should not be forgotten either that the Other CKCS CLUB Health Reprentative has said that she does not believe the 50% Figure of Cavaliers having a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of age which has been mentioned by MVD Researchers.

Finally don't forget that newly Appointed Chairman of the CKCS CLUB's Health Liason Committee spent TWO YEARS ,yes TWO YEARS fighting the BBC about the PDE TV Program which had mentioned the SM Problem in Cavaliers in it , his Complaint was Over-Turned .

Those are the People who are involved with the Cavalier Club trying to improve the Health of Cavaliers.

How can that be possible when they have Expressed their Opinions so forceably about the SM and MVD Health Problems in Cavaliers.

Bet

anniemac said:

I can see why some may be not for outcrossing with another breed or have that opinion. I don't understand if a cavalier is tested clear or of good "health" genes, why would it matter where it came from? Those cavaliers just might be the saving grace or true gems.

Help me understand that please

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Hello Anne,

Cavaliers were recreated in the 1920s by using the flat faced King Charles Spaniels ( known as English Toy Spaniels in USA )
'Charlies' that produced undesirable longer nosed offspring were the founders of the cavaliers.

Along the way it is known for sure that Cocker spaniels were added in and it is suspected that the dog that was used when the breed standard ( the detailed description of what all cavaliers should ideally look like ) was written was half papillon.

So we have a breed created from the rejects of another breed and some genes from other breeds.

Cavaliers are a dog that was created for showing. The incentive to breed a toy spaniel with an obvious nose came from a large ( for the time ) cash prize offered at Crufts by an American disaappointed that there were no longer any spaniels that looked like the small 'comforters' featured in old time paintings.

The desire to breed successful winning cavaliers has led show breeders to consider only show bred cavaliers are of value when breeding programmes are planned.
Show bred spaniels are closely line bred. The top sire at one given time is often the son of a former top sire, but over the years, especially after a cavalier won Crufts back in the 1970s the cavalier also became a popular family pet.

Puppy farmers found it worth while to start selling cavaliers and separate breeding programmes were developed.
These cavaliers, that now have very few recent ancestors in common with show bred cavaliers, may possess different 'good' genes that could help this breed.
If the alternative is to outcross to another breed, I would have thought it was at least worth exploring.

These dogs may come from puppy farm lines, there may be suspicions about some of the puppy farm pedigrees ( but the recent use of DNA testing in the USA has shown that even show breeders pedigrees are not always to be trusted ) but for the purists who do not want a drop of alien blood to spoil their breed, they are still cavaliers.

The crux of the matter is that most show breeders will not want to bring in any fresh blood, whether it is non-show cavalier or a different breed. The results of such breeding may have healthier genes but are not likely to be the show clone they aim for in their breeding.

They do not want to breed unhealthy cavaliers but their priority is to produce dogs that will be shown.The majority of puppies may go as family pets but they are a by-product of their breeding programmes, not the reason that they breed.

Until the KC makes health as important as beauty in the show ring, breeders will drag their feet and this breed will suffer.

Margaret C said:

... How much longer before [UK] breed club health representatives stop wasting time planning how they can prevent the full extent of the health problems being revealed and we see the CHLC take some real action to address the problems of SM and MVD?

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As bad as the UK CKCS club's inertia appears to be, that club is light-years ahead of the two national USA CKCS clubs when it comes to accepting the MVD and CM/SM breeding protocols.

The "leadership" of both the ACKCSC and the CKCSC,USA act as if they could not care less about eliminating early-onset MVD and CM/SM in the cavailer King Charles spaniel.

RodRussell said:

As bad as the UK CKCS club's inertia appears to be, that club is light-years ahead of the two national USA CKCS clubs when it comes to accepting the MVD and CM/SM breeding protocols.

The "leadership" of both the ACKCSC and the CKCSC,USA act as if they could not care less about eliminating early-onset MVD and CM/SM in the cavailer King Charles spaniel.

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Agree Rod. I was actually impressed with all the information on the site. Whether or not they do anything with it is not something I know but it seems like they have a ton more information than what we have.

Margaret C said:

Hello Anne,

Cavaliers were recreated in the 1920s by using the flat faced King Charles Spaniels ( known as English Toy Spaniels in USA )
'Charlies' that produced undesirable longer nosed offspring were the founders of the cavaliers.

Along the way it is known for sure that Cocker spaniels were added in and it is suspected that the dog that was used when the breed standard ( the detailed description of what all cavaliers should ideally look like ) was written was half papillon.

So we have a breed created from the rejects of another breed and some genes from other breeds.

Cavaliers are a dog that was created for showing. The incentive to breed a toy spaniel with an obvious nose came from a large ( for the time ) cash prize offered at Crufts by an American disaappointed that there were no longer any spaniels that looked like the small 'comforters' featured in old time paintings.

The desire to breed successful winning cavaliers has led show breeders to consider only show bred cavaliers are of value when breeding programmes are planned.
Show bred spaniels are closely line bred. The top sire at one given time is often the son of a former top sire, but over the years, especially after a cavalier won Crufts back in the 1970s the cavalier also became a popular family pet.

Puppy farmers found it worth while to start selling cavaliers and separate breeding programmes were developed.
These cavaliers, that now have very few recent ancestors in common with show bred cavaliers, may possess different 'good' genes that could help this breed.
If the alternative is to outcross to another breed, I would have thought it was at least worth exploring.

These dogs may come from puppy farm lines, there may be suspicions about some of the puppy farm pedigrees ( but the recent use of DNA testing in the USA has shown that even show breeders pedigrees are not always to be trusted ) but for the purists who do not want a drop of alien blood to spoil their breed, they are still cavaliers.

The crux of the matter is that most show breeders will not want to bring in any fresh blood, whether it is non-show cavalier or a different breed. The results of such breeding may have healthier genes but are not likely to be the show clone they aim for in their breeding.

They do not want to breed unhealthy cavaliers but their priority is to produce dogs that will be shown.The majority of puppies may go as family pets but they are a by-product of their breeding programmes, not the reason that they breed.

Until the KC makes health as important as beauty in the show ring, breeders will drag their feet and this breed will suffer.

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SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS


Is it not about time some Cavalier Breeders stopped blaming all the Ill Health of our Cavalier Breed on Puppy Farms ( how I hate them)but where is the Evidence that the Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's have more Health Problems than the Cavaliers that have been Bred by CKCS Breeders who are CKCS CLUB MEMBERS .

Who has carried out this Survey and when was it done?

Until the Results of a Survey ever having been carried out, no-body can say that the Cavaliers from Puppy Farms are suffering from more SM and MVD Problems in our Cavaliers.

Surely the Priority has to be to save the Cavalier Breed from Extinction , for Goodness Sake use some of those Puppy Farm Cavaliers ,get them Health Tested for no Signs of SM or MVD ,and use them in Cavalier Breeding Programs.

The Lovers of the Cavalier Breed will never Forgive the Cavalier Breeders who are so Blinkered that they will not give those Puppy Farm Bred Cavaliers the Chance to see if they could be the Saving of our Cherished Cavaliers.

Bet
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Bet said:

SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS


Is it not about time some Cavalier Breeders stopped blaming all the Ill Health of our Cavalier Breed on Puppy Farms ( how I hate them)but where is the Evidence that the Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's have more Health Problems than the Cavaliers that have been Bred by CKCS Breeders who are CKCS CLUB MEMBERS .

Who has carried out this Survey and when was it done?

Until the Results of a Survey ever having been carried out, no-body can say that the Cavaliers from Puppy Farms are suffering from more SM and MVD Problems in our Cavaliers.

Surely the Priority has to be to save the Cavalier Breed from Extinction , for Goodness Sake use some of those Puppy Farm Cavaliers ,get them Health Tested for no Signs of SM or MVD ,and use them in Cavalier Breeding Programs.

The Lovers of the Cavalier Breed will never Forgive the Cavalier Breeders who are so Blinkered that they will not give those Puppy Farm Bred Cavaliers the Chance to see if they could be the Saving of our Cherished Cavaliers.

Bet
.

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Conversely by your argument above, there is no evidence that Cavaliers bred by Cavalier club members are less healthy than puppy farm cavaliers.

I know where I would put my money and I know where I would go to buy my next Cavalier!!! (just for the record - it most definitely won't be a puppy farm - they are despicable and anyone who buys from them are in effect condoning their existence)icon_whistling

Davecav said:

... I know where I would put my money and I know where I would go to buy my next Cavalier!!!

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If you already know that, but you have not reviewed the genetic health testing reports on the sire and dam, and you have not checked on whether the MVD, CM/SM and other breeding protocols have been followed or not, then you would be making a mistake, in my book (which, by the way, has not come out yet ).

My point is that a cavalier puppy buyer should not just choose a type of breeder, or even a specific breeder. The buyer should choose a specific litter, and while doing so, get as much specific health testing information as possible about the sire and dam of that litter.

Rod,

I edited reply, but you can't think that puppy mills are a good place to start? Maybe I'm reading wrong but you are simply stating not to depend on past? Even your website says in the usa to start with club health clinic volunteers to ask and the breed health club committee chairman.

I do think a breeder could do all health testing on one litter and not another. Its good to know where to start the search, but even so, pet buyers should still ask the questions you list and see certificates. I would imagine those that have done or followed protocols would volunteer or would gladly give results and certificates. I would also think the breeders truly health focused would be wanting to place puppies with buyers who ask these questions.

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RodRussell said:

If you already know that, but you have not reviewed the genetic health testing reports on the sire and dam, and you have not checked on whether the MVD, CM/SM and other breeding protocols have been followed or not, then you would be making a mistake, in my book (which, by the way, has not come out yet ).

My point is that a cavalier puppy buyer should not just choose a type of breeder, or even a specific breeder. The buyer should choose a specific litter, and while doing so, get as much specific health testing information as possible about the sire and dam of that litter.

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I have read and genned up on health issues, and would go to a breeder who health tested and used health tested, and preferably older sires to try and combat MVD. The chances are, in the UK that this type of breeder will be a member of at least one of the regional clubs, if not the central UK club., though it is possible that they may not be.

Bet said:

Is it not about time some Cavalier Breeders stopped blaming all the Ill Health of our Cavalier Breed on Puppy Farms ( how I hate them)but where is the Evidence that the Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's have more Health Problems than the Cavaliers that have been Bred by CKCS Breeders who are CKCS CLUB MEMBERS .

Who has carried out this Survey and when was it done?

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I don't know if there is one for CKCS but a Scottish Terrier health survey showed that there is barely any difference between well-bred Scotties and Scotties from backyard breeders/puppy farms etc.

Whether Scotties are ‘well-bred’ or otherwise, on average their morbidity is the same and medical costs are the same... This evidence contradicts the received wisdom that a Scottie from a show breeder assures better health and fewer medical bills. Furthermore, this data shows our health problems cannot be attributed to puppy mills since show dogs manifest the same health risks on average as pet store Scotties, indicating a Scottie gene pool thoroughly homogenous in terms of morbidity.

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...well-bred Scotties on average are a mere 2.8% healthier than non-professionally bred Scotties. Common parlance treats pet store and backyard bred dogs as synonymous with puppy mills, ill health and bad breeding, yet actual Scottie numbers disprove that assumption. Given higher prices demanded for Scotties bred by show breeders and claims of excellence it might be expected there would be greater differential in average percentage of health problems between the two groups. At the very least, this evidence suggests ‘well-bred’ in current usage is in need of redefinition.

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