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Thread: Some cavalier in-bred co-efficients

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuppenlil View Post
    Bet
    When the figures of 20% club members versus 80% puppy farmers are quoted we might be doing some people who choose not to belong to Cavalier Clubs a big disservice. They might be very caring owners, very health conscious and very much wanting to do what is best for the breed. When I was health rep. I had many enquiries asking how people could do their best to breed healthy puppies. Many people have left the Clubs because of the politics, many never were interested in showing and never joined, some just want to breed the odd litter because they love having puppies around. It doesn't necessarily mean they don't care and we musn't lump them all together with "puppy farmers" who really don't care.
    Maggie
    Hello Maggie,

    Welcome to CavalierTalk. I am looking forward to some interesting discussions with you.

    What you say is true. I certainly have friends that love having cavalier puppies. They do all the health testing but are not interested in showing and just want to produce healthy pets.

    A couple of them have cavalier with well known puppy farm affixes, but they look like cavaliers, they act like cavaliers, and in one case there is no SM in a bitch scanned through Ruperts Fund.

    Maggie[/QUOTE]
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  2. #22
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    I can see why some may be not for outcrossing with another breed or have that opinion. I don't understand if a cavalier is tested clear or of good "health" genes, why would it matter where it came from? Those cavaliers just might be the saving grace or true gems.

    Help me understand that please

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    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

  3. #23
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    Thinking more, wouldn't pedigree be beneficial to know health or genetic past? Maybe just if we had health of parents (hearts) and the actual test of one being bred be enough?

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    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

  4. #24
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    Default Some cavalier in-bred co-efficients

    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    Hello Maggie,

    Welcome to CavalierTalk. I am looking forward to some interesting discussions with you.

    What you say is true. I certainly have friends that love having cavalier puppies. They do all the health testing but are not interested in showing and just want to produce healthy pets.

    A couple of them have cavalier with well known puppy farm affixes, but they look like cavaliers, they act like cavaliers, and in one case there is no SM in a bitch scanned through Ruperts Fund.

    Maggie
    [/QUOTE]


    SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS


    I think and most Lovers of the Cavalier Breed will have to agree that the Cavalier Breed is now at the Cross Roads of it's Future,

    Has the choice to be Out-Crossing to another Breed or Buying Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's ,and be used for for Cavalier Breeding Programs, making sure that they have no SM and MVD , since those are the Two Diseases which are going to put an end to our Cavaliers.

    Can the Fashionable Cavaliers of to-day ,as Margaret has said having Big Eyes, Short Noses ,Cushioned Faces ,Long Backs and Short Legs, have what is needed to save the Breed.

    I don't know the answer ,all I know is that drastic measures now have got to be being taken.

    Maybe it will be Cavalier Puppy Farm Cavaliers who are going to save the Breed.

    OK the Breeders on the Show Scene Circuit will be having the Vapours at this thought, but is it not about time that the Health of our Cavaliers came first and not what the type will be that's going to Win at the Cavalier Shows.

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    Re looks: We all adored our cavaliers in the 60s, 70s , 80s, 90s and 2000s even if they were not as big eyed, short nosed, cushioned faced, perfectly marked, long backed and short legged etc. as the fashionable cavalier in the show ring today.

    Re: Temperament. It is being recognised that SM dogs can often have uncertain temperaments because they fear being touched. They have been known to attack other dogs and sometimes even family members. If SM affected cavaliers continue to be added to the gene pool because Club breeders cannot self-regulate, then we may be on our way to losing the sweet cavalier temperament anyway?
    Margaret

    Thats very true about the temperament, several people have had rather unpleasant experiences with temperament issues. Also some dogs seem to be 'off the ceiling' with excitement and some are too nervous and backing off any physical contact. So maybe we are already starting to lose that gentle sweet temperament unique to the Cavalier ?? That would be really tragic.

    Any look at a human Chiari support website would tell you how ghastly it must be if you have to live with a constant headache!


    Maggie

  6. #26
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    80% of the puppy registrations may be by non-club breeders, but it is really important to understand that of those 80%, all are not puppy farmers -- I doubt that even most are. A lot of them no doubt are people that some club breeders sold their puppies to on open registrations, who can breed away as they wish on a fairly casual basis without much knowledge of what they are doing or consideration for the kinds of dogs they are mating. Some portion will be puppy farmers. A lot will be people who breed for a pet market that cannot be satisfied alone by the numbers of puppies bred by club breeders, much less the subset of health testing club breeders.

    Like others here, I also have come across people who left the show world because they felt there was not enough emphasis on breeding for health but decided that it was worth trying to produce puppies that have been bred using the protocols and existing health tests. One such that I know of has nearly a dozen A grade dogs that have been scanned under the formal scanning protocol. Some of these will not have pedigrees that immediately go back to show dogs–and have remained isolated from that whole scene, as well as popular sires–and perhaps that is why this breeder is having such an extraordinary number of excellent grades. She only breeds A dogs that also have clear hearts, as tested annually by a cardiologist.

    All the dogs are registered, but she is not in the breed club. She has just made a commitment to breeding for health, supporting research and producing health focused puppies for pet homes.

    I think those are the kinds of dogs and breeders that should be brought back into some kind of international breeding program to try to eradicate the serious health issues in this breed.

    I am not all that sure about puppy farmed dogs being sturdier because they are able to survive poor conditions. If you look at some of the dogs that come out of puppy farms and are handed into rescues in Wales and in Ireland, a lot of them have serious health issues but most have been bred already. I just think the dogs in this gentle breed tolerate whatever situation they are put into and as they are never tested or closely watched by anybody who loves them, the health issues just are not noticed. Amongst those, I would include Suzy, the ex-puppy farm dog now living with an elderly neighbor of mine, who had a grade 5 heart murmur at age 6 and was being handed over because the puppy farmer had bred as many litters from her (7) as he could and still get IKC registration and a male stud dog who went to Mattiesmum on the board here from me, and had a grade 5 murmur at only about age 5 or six (the owner told me he could still be used to sire litters if I wanted ). Lots come out with serious untreated eye problems and advanced heart murmurs.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  7. #27
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    Margaret,

    They can store semen? Are they doing that?

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    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by anniemac View Post
    Margaret,

    They can store semen? Are they doing that?

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    Yes, it can be frozen and used decades later.

    At very least the Cavalier Club should be encouraging breeders to MRI their older dogs and then using some of the health money that is lying unused in the bank ( a very bad habit in many clubs ) to pay for the storage of semen from Grade A dogs.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  9. #29
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    I frankly despair when I read that a Cavalier Health Liaison Council Member has asked why would pet owners want to see a list of MRI scanned dogs?
    Perhaps because they have been told they should do some homework before they buy?

    I would think that a better question is why would a breeder not want such a list provided?

    There is nothing that can tell a pet owner that Mrs A is a breeder that should be trusted or that Mr B is a plausible conman. I know a few breeders that could make a secondhand car salesman look like a beginner when it comes to smooth talking.

    There is one remark repeated yet again that always puzzles me............ "a scan shows only the status of the dog on one particular day"
    Isn't that the same for any test for any condition, including smear tests and mammograms in women? Does that mean those tests should also be dismissed?

    The usual breeder concerns about the potential effects of discarding D dogs from the gene pool are voiced.
    The fact that the popular sire syndrome is a very important cause of genetic loss never seems to be recognised.

    The guidelines ensure that there is a place for D dogs that genuinely have other good health genes to offer, but they should always have a grade A mate.
    Such a breeding does bring a greater risk of SM affected offspring than using two grade A parents.

    There is to me a very telling sentence when this CHLC member writes that hundreds of dogs have been scanned in the last two or three years as breeders have slowly realized that they really do have a problem.
    It sounds good, but to put it in context Club members received a leaflet eight years ago saying that SM was a rapidly spreading problem.

    It was already known that the top stud dogs were producing offspring with SM, so it did not take a lot of knowledge to realise those SM genes would be spreading through the gene pool?

    Six years to slowly realize they really do have a problem?

    How much longer before breed club health representatives stop wasting time planning how they can prevent the full extent of the health problems being revealed and we see the CHLC take some real action to address the problems of SM and MVD?
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  10. #30
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    Margaret wrote: they were not as big eyed, short nosed, cushioned faced, perfectly marked, long backed and short legged etc. as the fashionable cavalier in the show ring today.

    I've been having an interesting exchange of emails with a top breeder who took exception to a remark I made in an earlier post about breeders following fashions, especially in heads, and who assures me that there aren't fashions in Cavaliers and no respectable Cavalier breeder would follow fashion if it existed.

    Karlin wrote: I am not all that sure about puppy farmed dogs being sturdier because they are able to survive poor conditions.

    Aled came out of his Welsh puppy farm at 18 months with rotten teeth, appalling ear mites and a grade 2 heart murmur which quickly went up to a Grade 3 - and he was only 18 months, many ex-puppy farm dogs are older breeding bitches with dreadful health. He's now 4 years old and his murmur has stayed at 3 - I hope because he has lost weight, is very fit and on a very strict diet, but it's still way too high for a dog of his age. He wasn't vaccinated either until he came into rescue - I hate to think what could have happened if he had come to the parvo hotspot that is Coventry as an unvaccinated puppy, which he could have done if someone had bought him direct from the puppy farm and the breeder had lied about vaccination.

    Kate, Oliver and Aled

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